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Hardware  » Time for upgrade..? :)

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51 posts found
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7181

 
OP  4/05/13 4:12:01 AM#41


Originally posted by Xthos

I usually buy higher end stuff so it use to last a good 2-3 years (3 usually)

You do not buy "higher end stuff" to last, you buy it for performance it provides. In that case though, be prepared to pay.


Q6600 CPU case above is exemplary. Buying expensive, yes I mean expensive, not just higher price tag, hardware to "last" is not working, despite dogmatism and ill advice you will get on these boards.

If I was following the advice given in this discussion, I should have been spending 300 USD just on CPU alone while in same 6 years time span, all my upgrades cost me 480 USD total - providing decent and at the end of the cycle mostly equal performance for about half the cost, still leaving plenty of room if I wanted to be more performance.


I am not saying either path is better or worse, it all depends on what you want from those upgrades.

If you want affordable decent rig, then aim for lower mainstream/low end, upgrade only as certain parts need to be upgraded and at the same time you will get better value for your money.

If you are more concerned about performance, you will have to accept that FPS/$ won't be as favourable and it will be more expensive deal.

  jdnewell

Elite Member

Joined: 7/04/06
Posts: 1877

4/05/13 8:36:52 AM#42

If you are interested in value & performance then I would take a good look at some of the AMD cpu's. IMO intel is a bit better for the most part, but for the $ AMD has some really nice budget friendly cpu's that should last awhile.

It seems like you have made up your mind already tho so I am not sure what the point of asking others points of view are. If you already know what direction you want to go with the upgrade then go for it.

  Xthos

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2650

4/05/13 9:00:32 AM#43
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Xthos

I usually buy higher end stuff so it use to last a good 2-3 years (3 usually)

 

You do not buy "higher end stuff" to last, you buy it for performance it provides. In that case though, be prepared to pay.


Q6600 CPU case above is exemplary. Buying expensive, yes I mean expensive, not just higher price tag, hardware to "last" is not working, despite dogmatism and ill advice you will get on these boards.

If I was following the advice given in this discussion, I should have been spending 300 USD just on CPU alone while in same 6 years time span, all my upgrades cost me 480 USD total - providing decent and at the end of the cycle mostly equal performance for about half the cost, still leaving plenty of room if I wanted to be more performance.


I am not saying either path is better or worse, it all depends on what you want from those upgrades.

If you want affordable decent rig, then aim for lower mainstream/low end, upgrade only as certain parts need to be upgraded and at the same time you will get better value for your money.

If you are more concerned about performance, you will have to accept that FPS/$ won't be as favourable and it will be more expensive deal.

Well yes, I buy it for the performance, and my best example for the computer that my wife is using and the one I had (it was replaced with a warranty, graphic card went out and the warranty replaced the whole computer, kind of silly, but thats what they did.), was Vanguard.  It was not coded well, people had a ton of problems with it, we spent a good deal of money and got a pretty much top of the line computer, and it seemed like we had at most 10% of the problems that other people did.  We had the stutter while panning, but not to the extent most had it seemed, and a lot of the other bugs that made people quit, rarely hit us.  So instead of ruining our gaming experience, like it did many, we enjoyed Vanguard a good deal for a long time. 

 

I do not know if EqNext/ArcheAge and those era mmos will be the next big one we play, but that is about the time frame I am looking to replace our computers.  So their is a decent chance we would take a decent performance hit if we didn't get something decent or more expensive.  I am not buying bleeding edge, but a higher end card and workhorse intel chip most likely that I live near a microcenter and can get pretty much at cost.

 

Last time I had something that was below par, performance wise was for DAoC, and it was horrible for us, we had like a pentium 3 for its launch and a graphics card that was one below the 'supported' card list for the game.  My computer had a little better processor than my wifes (girlfriend at the time) and I wasn't hit real hard except for bigger battles it would be lag lag lag...dead heh, but my wife had to follow people on her cleric and look at the ground so the computer didn't have to render the scenery while running with 'bard' speed, and then if we got into a fight, she would then look up and try to function...She did well with the limitations, but I am sure we would of had a much better time playing if our computers would of been better.

 

I couldn't afford it back then, and while I don't have money falling out of my pockets, I find we get good value out of buying a higher end machine.  I can see where you do not, but my wifes computer has served her well, which we got her literally the week before Vanguard launched, and I think it has the Q9550, 8 gb ram, and GTX 260, which was pretty decent for Jan. 2007.

  Storman1977

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 206

4/05/13 9:38:55 AM#44

"You get what you pay for!" Seems appropriate here. Before my latest upgrade, it was five years between major rebuilds. Until about a month ago, I had as follows

Intel Core2Quad Q8200 @ 2.9gHz
four gigs of OCZ ultra low latency (for the time anyhow)RAM
MSi P5M motherboard.
EVGA Nvidia GTX 260 1gb video card

all in all with this build, I spent maybe $600

Other than swapping out to a HD 6970 about two years ago (because I wanted to, not needed to), this set up lasted me five, almost six years. And probably would have lasted me even longer, but I had the opportunity to get some good parts at a good price and jumped on it. But, with the changes in prices, especially how DDR 3 has came down in price compared to older DDR versions, my new build is considerably more powerful and still considered a budget build

FX-8350 8 core @ 3.9gHz
Asus Sabretooth R2 FX990 mobo
16 gigs of Corsair Vengeance RAM
and still using the HD 6970

total investment - $446 (still have the receipt)

Granted, I didn't need to upgrade power supply (Thermaltake Mod 750 watt), case (custom built), or accessories (dvd, floppy, digital control panel).

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13585

4/05/13 11:38:02 AM#45

With hardware improvements slowing down, a computer is likely to last longer than it used to.  Single-threaded CPU performance increases have slowed to a crawl with single-digit annual percentage gains.  That's a far cry from the 40% or so annually that we used to see.  You can still add more CPU cores, but putting them all to good use gets harder the more cores you have.

Meanwhile, video card performance has become limited more by power consumption than transistor count, at least outside of low end desktop cards.  That means that you can expect annual gains on the order of 20% rather than 40%.  There are rumors that future die shrinks might not even give as big of power savings as they used to, in which case that could slow even further.

Graphics APIs are mostly there, so that's not going to be much of a reason to replace a video card in the near future, either.  What's left for DirectX 12 or OpenGL 5 to add?  Better order-independent transparency options, certainly.  And then?  Unless you're going to replace rasterization by ray-tracing or some such, nothing else is glaringly missing from the latest versions of DirectX and OpenGL.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7181

 
OP  4/05/13 1:09:16 PM#46


Originally posted by jdnewell
If you are interested in value & performance then I would take a good look at some of the AMD cpu's. IMO intel is a bit better for the most part, but for the $ AMD has some really nice budget friendly cpu's that should last awhile.

It seems like you have made up your mind already tho so I am not sure what the point of asking others points of view are. If you already know what direction you want to go with the upgrade then go for it.


Quizzical made me look at AMD CPUs and they did not impress me at all.

1) Very high power consumption.
2) Higher mainstream Intels are powerhouses that will be very cheap in a few years, I do not see this option upgrade for AMD.
3) Their performance in games isn't matching Intel CPU for the price and that is only performance factor I am considering.


I know what I am looking for but I do not know the market products, I am not following it much thus I asked for VGA in price range of Radeon 7770 and CPU that could go along with it in similar range. Instead, I got handful of ill advices(I know some got good intentions though) and got flamed...

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13585

4/05/13 1:26:05 PM#47

1)  AMD's desktop processors do have higher load power consumption than Intel's.  But that raises the question of whether this matters, and the answer to that is, not particularly.  Even 125 W is pretty easy to cool in a desktop.  Nor will it have much effect on your electricity bill, as processors only use a few watts at idle, and are nearly always idle.

But if you were absolutely obsessive about saving on power consumption, then the way to go is actually still AMD.  Get an A10-5700, use the integrated graphics in it (not needing a discrete card saves a ton of power), and undervolt it as far as you can go without losing stability.  No, I wouldn't actually recommend that to more than a tiny handful of people.  But if you're particularly bothered by AMD desktop processors using somewhat more power than Intel under gaming loads, then you're likely to be in that tiny handful of people.

Even so, the power consumption gap probably isn't as big as you think.  A 125 W FX-8350 will use more power under heavy loads than a 77 W Core i5-3570K.  But under heavy loads, you're using 8 cores of the former as opposed to four cores of the latter--and getting more performance in return for the extra cores.  If you only use four cores of each, will the FX-8350 still use more power?  Likely not.  At the same performance level, an AMD processor will use more power than an Intel one, but it's not as big of a gap as you might think.

2)  No, a Core i5-3570K will never be cheap.  Intel doesn't make old processors cheap after a while.  They discontinue old processors and introduce new ones for the same price as the old ones used to be.  If you want to upgrade in the future, your choices will be buying a used processor you could have bought today for not much less than it would have cost to buy it new today or else replacing the motherboard, memory, and OS license yet again in order to get something newer.  If you get a Socket AM3+ system from AMD, then there's a chance (though it's far from a certainty) that they'll eventually offer Steamroller cores for it.

3)  There's a lot more going on than a naive average frame rate from different CPUs in older games that are mostly limited by the video card.  You don't know how to interpret the charts and don't want to learn.  So just buy something and be done with it.  If you're actually considering buying something new, which for all I know, you likely aren't.

4)  The modern video card in the price range of a Radeon HD 7770 is the Radeon HD 7770.  That sounds like a tautology, and in fact, it is, but there's really nothing more to be said about it.  If that's the amount that you want to spend on a video card, then that's the video card to buy.  For you, it doesn't make a bit of sense whatsoever to buy that card, but that's a problem of looking in the wrong budget range.  If you want to buy it, then buy it, and don't complain that you bought a card that made no sense at all for you.

  Panther2103

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 2085

4/05/13 1:30:56 PM#48
You asked a question in the beginning and wanted help, people assisted you and now you are upset they are suggesting things you don't want. I don't understand why you even asked here in the first place if you already knew what you wanted to do. Was it to try to show up the people with extensive computer knowledge? 
  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

4/09/13 3:25:31 AM#49

Does this technically count as thread necromancy?

On a $120 budget the only option I would reccomend is used. Seriously, I'm all about cost savings. Anyway here is a true story to illustrate cost / performance. I got 2x5770's for roughly $100 well, more like $70 (used), swapped those for a 5850 and then sold the 5850 for $100.  The reasoning behind selling the 5850 for $100? Someone was selling a 5970 black edition for $100 and I was like...oooooh, and I also got a 120GB ssd from the same guy for $30, and they all work!

So depending on your city population, waiting around for a used and cheap AMD 5800 or better series card and or a Core 2 Extreme CPU could be legit options. Having used and tested both the 5770 in Xfire and single configurations I believe The others are correct and that card is not your particular bottleneck, it runs both Skyrim and SWTOR smoothly on max on an i5 2400 setup. It struggles a bit with SC2 on max (ultra or extreme). Drops to roughly 15-30 FPS and some stuttering with a maxed out Mothership carrier army. But you don't care about RTS.

My 4870 512MB w/ E4400 was actually running SC2 quite well on medium / high - before UPS dropped it. Matter of fact, my woman's old E8400 with the Ep45-UD3L runs Skyrim quite easily on a 4870 and a 3870 (no mist on the 3870).

 

Side Note: After UPS dropkicked all 4 of our PCs off a 30ft ledge we were forced to upgrade. Before that I was in your position. I threw together a PC quickly just to have something to game on immediately but I didn't want to go all out seeing as I was not totally familiar with the tech landscape at the time. Had the PC's arrived intact I would have most likely found a cheap E8400 and OC'd to 4.0GHz(used).

Side side note: someone is selling a GTX260 here and I'm debating buying it to get the E8400 back up and running for no reason.

 

Conclusion:

Your bottleneck is your CPU for sure. Games like crysis will shit on your CPU ALL day. Going from your E2160 to an E8400 may likely fix all your current issues. Or even a cheap used Q8600 or a QX6700. In short, Quiz is not wrong, he's a really nice guy who is just trying to help you out long term. If you won't get the FX chip/  MB, then the Q or QX intel series is the next best thing, third and last on the list is upgrading the 5770 which may not help at all.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3492

4/09/13 10:03:01 AM#50

Used gear is a double-edged sword.

I don't outright recommend it for a few reasons, but I also don't advise against it so long as the buyer knows what he/she is getting into.

Caveat emptor

- Used gear often will have no warranty support (either expired or non-transferrable).

- Not always from a reputable reseller, so returns/exchanges are often impossible.

- The gear may not be what was advertised, not everyone out there is exactly honest, and some parts it can be hard to tell just looking at them (generic DIMMs, some CPUs, etc).

- If you are buying online (Ebay or some such), you don't get a chance to see the part run before you pay for it. That may be the case even if your in person: a CPU and the buyer doesn't have a motherboard available to test it in, for example. Now this is also true for new retail gear, but with new retail gear you have an exchange period and a warranty period that more or less guarantee that it will work, or you can get your money back.

- You have no idea how the part was treated before hand - it could be that it was also dropkicked from 30 ft, just happens to work the one time the seller tested it afterwards, and has a lifespan of exactly 15 more minutes before some part that got knocked loose finally explodes. A more realistic example are aggressively overclocked parts - there is no way of knowing how much an aggressive overclock has degraded the silicon, or even that it was done; only that will have somewhat diminished the lifespan of the product.

- In a similar vein, you can only have a rough idea of what runtime the part has. All parts have a finite run time, silicon may last 10-20+ years, but mechanical parts maybe have an average lifespan of 3-5 years, even for high quality parts. Fan bearings, rotating hard drives, etc all fall under that category.

Most of the time, yeah, you get a really good deal. It's a lot like buying a used car though: sure you aren't paying the "depreciation tax", but there is also a much higher likelihood of getting ripped off, and there are very few lemon laws that can protect you. And there is a non-zero portion of the population that try to take advantage of just that.

Just be careful buying used, and don't spend more than you can afford to lose trying to get good deals. If your total budget is $500, and you spend it all on used parts, there's a good chance it'll all work out ok, but there's also a good chance something isn't going to work, and there probably aren't going to be any RMAs/Warranty repairs, like there would be if you were to buy new parts from a reputable vendor.

  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

4/09/13 11:23:11 AM#51
Originally posted by Ridelynn

Used gear is a double-edged sword.

I don't outright recommend it for a few reasons, but I also don't advise against it so long as the buyer knows what he/she is getting into.

Caveat emptor

- Used gear often will have no warranty support (either expired or non-transferrable).

- Not always from a reputable reseller, so returns/exchanges are often impossible.

- The gear may not be what was advertised, not everyone out there is exactly honest, and some parts it can be hard to tell just looking at them (generic DIMMs, some CPUs, etc).

- If you are buying online (Ebay or some such), you don't get a chance to see the part run before you pay for it. That may be the case even if your in person: a CPU and the buyer doesn't have a motherboard available to test it in, for example. Now this is also true for new retail gear, but with new retail gear you have an exchange period and a warranty period that more or less guarantee that it will work, or you can get your money back.

- You have no idea how the part was treated before hand - it could be that it was also dropkicked from 30 ft, just happens to work the one time the seller tested it afterwards, and has a lifespan of exactly 15 more minutes before some part that got knocked loose finally explodes. A more realistic example are aggressively overclocked parts - there is no way of knowing how much an aggressive overclock has degraded the silicon, or even that it was done; only that will have somewhat diminished the lifespan of the product.

- In a similar vein, you can only have a rough idea of what runtime the part has. All parts have a finite run time, silicon may last 10-20+ years, but mechanical parts maybe have an average lifespan of 3-5 years, even for high quality parts. Fan bearings, rotating hard drives, etc all fall under that category.

Most of the time, yeah, you get a really good deal. It's a lot like buying a used car though: sure you aren't paying the "depreciation tax", but there is also a much higher likelihood of getting ripped off, and there are very few lemon laws that can protect you. And there is a non-zero portion of the population that try to take advantage of just that.

Just be careful buying used, and don't spend more than you can afford to lose trying to get good deals. If your total budget is $500, and you spend it all on used parts, there's a good chance it'll all work out ok, but there's also a good chance something isn't going to work, and there probably aren't going to be any RMAs/Warranty repairs, like there would be if you were to buy new parts from a reputable vendor.

 

Your not wrong on any point other than maybe getting some used parts from Amazon might have certain guarantee's, much different than rolling the dice with CList.

Certainly if he had a $500 budget we wouldn't be having this conversation BUT if he only wants to spend $120 and is looking for an upgrade THEN the CPU is what needs to get replaced, one way or another. Replacing the video card is just not cost efficient.

I can only say that I've better luck with used parts then with Newegg. My first 2 Newegg purchases (Brand New) were duds and I still haven't been burned by a used part from other sources including Amazon. Again, personal experiences will ibviously vary. 

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