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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » 'The market has spoken very loudly that [F2P] is the model they like'

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365 posts found
  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1428

4/04/13 3:43:08 PM#161
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by doodphace

 

I am not going to sit here and teach you how to read what where...

Lets pretend for a sec that WoW was not the only p2p game they list in thier p2p sources, you cool with them including almost every single free to play browser based game out there in their ftp chart numbers?  I'm not, at least not in regards to this discussion.

Whatever they include in the F2P categories do not change the fact that P2P has declined by more than 20%. Are you disputing that?

Here is what I am disputing:

The basis of this thread was that F2P MMOs (such as SWTOR, lotro, AoC etc etc) killed P2P.

Then someone comes along and posts a link to an article that first, only talks about the US, and secondly, includes games like farmville in their numbers. If you want to discuss free internet games in general being more popular than client based games that require a sub, I agree 100%. If you want to talk about MMORPGs (you know, the ones this site is named after), you need to provide another source if you want to claim that P2P is dead.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/04/13 3:44:15 PM#162
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
*snip*
"Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012. F2P, on the other hand, has been growing from 7.5MM in 2007 to 39.5MM in October 2012."

"The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

You do realise that the only confirmed P2P numbers they included are WoW right? Not Rift, not EVE, not all of the "F2P" (which still have a substantial subscription) games. The article should read "WoW", not "subscription based. Seriously though, read the data behind their study. The only P2P game they confirm they took into account is WoW, which makes sense, seeing as they are the only game (aside form EVE) who announces their actual sub numbers.

*snip*

*snip*

wow does not have 8.5 million in the US alone, which is where apparently the study was looking at, so it has to have been looking at other MMO's besides WoW as well. 

I consider farmville and MMO, not the same type surely but is there are thousands of people you can interact with in a game setting.  A social MMO, yes but still an MMO.

edit - lotro wasn't dying in any way sahpe or form when they switched from p2p to f2p.  They were steady and in the black.  They switched for the same reason EQ switched, that being their other game did well on f2p. 

The study doesnt say that WoW (or "subscription based)" currently has 8.5mill subs in the US...you really didn't even read it, did you? I am not trying to be sarcastic btw.

Then what are you trying to be, just plain wrong?  Your statement is red is wrong, not the one in the study. He's not saying the study is wrong, he's saying you're wrong and he's obviously right about that.

No...hes syaing that WoW does not have 8.5mil subs in the US Today. I agreed with that, and remineded him that the 8.5mil number was form 2010, not today....

You literally highted the part that said it was 6.7 as of 2012, yet defend him for syaing wow does not have 8.5mil today?

I give up.

 No I'm saying WoW NEVER had 8.5 milliion in the U.S.  They never got over 5 million there, possibly 3 or 4 million.  Which is still a heck of a lot. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1428

4/04/13 3:49:34 PM#163
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
*snip*
"Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012. F2P, on the other hand, has been growing from 7.5MM in 2007 to 39.5MM in October 2012."

"The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

You do realise that the only confirmed P2P numbers they included are WoW right? Not Rift, not EVE, not all of the "F2P" (which still have a substantial subscription) games. The article should read "WoW", not "subscription based. Seriously though, read the data behind their study. The only P2P game they confirm they took into account is WoW, which makes sense, seeing as they are the only game (aside form EVE) who announces their actual sub numbers.

*snip*

*snip*

wow does not have 8.5 million in the US alone, which is where apparently the study was looking at, so it has to have been looking at other MMO's besides WoW as well. 

I consider farmville and MMO, not the same type surely but is there are thousands of people you can interact with in a game setting.  A social MMO, yes but still an MMO.

edit - lotro wasn't dying in any way sahpe or form when they switched from p2p to f2p.  They were steady and in the black.  They switched for the same reason EQ switched, that being their other game did well on f2p. 

The study doesnt say that WoW (or "subscription based)" currently has 8.5mill subs in the US...you really didn't even read it, did you? I am not trying to be sarcastic btw.

Then what are you trying to be, just plain wrong?  Your statement is red is wrong, not the one in the study. He's not saying the study is wrong, he's saying you're wrong and he's obviously right about that.

No...hes syaing that WoW does not have 8.5mil subs in the US Today. I agreed with that, and remineded him that the 8.5mil number was form 2010, not today....

You literally highted the part that said it was 6.7 as of 2012, yet defend him for syaing wow does not have 8.5mil today?

I give up.

 No I'm saying WoW NEVER had 8.5 milliion in the U.S.  They never got over 5 million there, possibly 3 or 4 million.  Which is still a heck of a lot. 

 

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1428

4/04/13 3:51:49 PM#164
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
*snip*
"Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012. F2P, on the other hand, has been growing from 7.5MM in 2007 to 39.5MM in October 2012."

"The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

You do realise that the only confirmed P2P numbers they included are WoW right? Not Rift, not EVE, not all of the "F2P" (which still have a substantial subscription) games. The article should read "WoW", not "subscription based. Seriously though, read the data behind their study. The only P2P game they confirm they took into account is WoW, which makes sense, seeing as they are the only game (aside form EVE) who announces their actual sub numbers.

*snip*

*snip*

wow does not have 8.5 million in the US alone, which is where apparently the study was looking at, so it has to have been looking at other MMO's besides WoW as well. 

I consider farmville and MMO, not the same type surely but is there are thousands of people you can interact with in a game setting.  A social MMO, yes but still an MMO.

edit - lotro wasn't dying in any way sahpe or form when they switched from p2p to f2p.  They were steady and in the black.  They switched for the same reason EQ switched, that being their other game did well on f2p. 

The study doesnt say that WoW (or "subscription based)" currently has 8.5mill subs in the US...you really didn't even read it, did you? I am not trying to be sarcastic btw.

Then what are you trying to be, just plain wrong?  Your statement is red is wrong, not the one in the study. He's not saying the study is wrong, he's saying you're wrong and he's obviously right about that.

No...hes syaing that WoW does not have 8.5mil subs in the US Today. I agreed with that, and remineded him that the 8.5mil number was form 2010, not today....

You literally highted the part that said it was 6.7 as of 2012, yet defend him for syaing wow does not have 8.5mil today?

I give up.

 No I'm saying WoW NEVER had 8.5 milliion in the U.S.  They never got over 5 million there, possibly 3 or 4 million.  Which is still a heck of a lot. 

Which is prob correct, but neither you, or me, know this for sure. That also may be what you were saying, but it was def not what he was saying. There is a huge difference between "does not (implies current)" and "did not (imples the past)". Also in what was quoted of me, I listed wow as "subscription based" in quotations next to it, seeing as it was the only p2p game the study quoted, further leading to its validity coming into question.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/04/13 3:52:26 PM#165
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
*snip*
"Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012. F2P, on the other hand, has been growing from 7.5MM in 2007 to 39.5MM in October 2012."

"The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

You do realise that the only confirmed P2P numbers they included are WoW right? Not Rift, not EVE, not all of the "F2P" (which still have a substantial subscription) games. The article should read "WoW", not "subscription based. Seriously though, read the data behind their study. The only P2P game they confirm they took into account is WoW, which makes sense, seeing as they are the only game (aside form EVE) who announces their actual sub numbers.

*snip*

*snip*

wow does not have 8.5 million in the US alone, which is where apparently the study was looking at, so it has to have been looking at other MMO's besides WoW as well. 

I consider farmville and MMO, not the same type surely but is there are thousands of people you can interact with in a game setting.  A social MMO, yes but still an MMO.

edit - lotro wasn't dying in any way sahpe or form when they switched from p2p to f2p.  They were steady and in the black.  They switched for the same reason EQ switched, that being their other game did well on f2p. 

The study doesnt say that WoW (or "subscription based)" currently has 8.5mill subs in the US...you really didn't even read it, did you? I am not trying to be sarcastic btw.

Then what are you trying to be, just plain wrong?  Your statement is red is wrong, not the one in the study. He's not saying the study is wrong, he's saying you're wrong and he's obviously right about that.

No...hes syaing that WoW does not have 8.5mil subs in the US Today. I agreed with that, and remineded him that the 8.5mil number was form 2010, not today....

You literally highted the part that said it was 6.7 as of 2012, yet defend him for syaing wow does not have 8.5mil today?

I give up.

 No I'm saying WoW NEVER had 8.5 milliion in the U.S.  They never got over 5 million there, possibly 3 or 4 million.  Which is still a heck of a lot. 

Which is prob correct, but neither you, or me, know this for sure. Also in what was quoted of me, I listed wow as "subscription based" in quotation next to it, seeing as it was the only p2p game they quoted.

 Can you show me where they state their sources or where they say that?  I can't seem to find their sources.  Just take a snapshot using the windows snipping tool.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

4/04/13 3:55:25 PM#166
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by doodphace

 

I am not going to sit here and teach you how to read what where...

Lets pretend for a sec that WoW was not the only p2p game they list in thier p2p sources, you cool with them including almost every single free to play browser based game out there in their ftp chart numbers?  I'm not, at least not in regards to this discussion.

Whatever they include in the F2P categories do not change the fact that P2P has declined by more than 20%. Are you disputing that?

Here is what I am disputing:

The basis of this thread was that F2P MMOs (such as SWTOR, lotro, AoC etc etc) killed P2P.

Then someone comes along and posts a link to an article that first, only talks about the US, and secondly, includes games like farmville in their numbers. If you want to discuss free internet games in general being more popular than client based games that require a sub, I agree 100%. If you want to talk about MMORPGs (you know, the ones this site is named after), you need to provide another source if you want to claim that P2P is dead.

I think the artilce pretty much proves that P2P is in decline. A 20% drop is not in decline, what is?

You are disputing *what* is killing it ... sure .. may be all the web games they include play a role, may be not. But are you disputing P2P is being killed by *something*?

heck, it may even be tablet & smart phones. Who knows.

 

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1428

4/04/13 3:55:38 PM#167
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
*snip*
"Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012. F2P, on the other hand, has been growing from 7.5MM in 2007 to 39.5MM in October 2012."

"The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

You do realise that the only confirmed P2P numbers they included are WoW right? Not Rift, not EVE, not all of the "F2P" (which still have a substantial subscription) games. The article should read "WoW", not "subscription based. Seriously though, read the data behind their study. The only P2P game they confirm they took into account is WoW, which makes sense, seeing as they are the only game (aside form EVE) who announces their actual sub numbers.

*snip*

*snip*

wow does not have 8.5 million in the US alone, which is where apparently the study was looking at, so it has to have been looking at other MMO's besides WoW as well. 

I consider farmville and MMO, not the same type surely but is there are thousands of people you can interact with in a game setting.  A social MMO, yes but still an MMO.

edit - lotro wasn't dying in any way sahpe or form when they switched from p2p to f2p.  They were steady and in the black.  They switched for the same reason EQ switched, that being their other game did well on f2p. 

The study doesnt say that WoW (or "subscription based)" currently has 8.5mill subs in the US...you really didn't even read it, did you? I am not trying to be sarcastic btw.

Then what are you trying to be, just plain wrong?  Your statement is red is wrong, not the one in the study. He's not saying the study is wrong, he's saying you're wrong and he's obviously right about that.

No...hes syaing that WoW does not have 8.5mil subs in the US Today. I agreed with that, and remineded him that the 8.5mil number was form 2010, not today....

You literally highted the part that said it was 6.7 as of 2012, yet defend him for syaing wow does not have 8.5mil today?

I give up.

 No I'm saying WoW NEVER had 8.5 milliion in the U.S.  They never got over 5 million there, possibly 3 or 4 million.  Which is still a heck of a lot. 

Which is prob correct, but neither you, or me, know this for sure. Also in what was quoted of me, I listed wow as "subscription based" in quotation next to it, seeing as it was the only p2p game they quoted.

 Can you show me where they state their sources or where they say that?  I can't seem to find their sources.  Just take a snapshot using the windows snipping tool.

I updated my quote:

Which is prob correct, but neither you, or me, know this for sure. That also may be what you were saying, but it was def not what he was saying. There is a huge difference between "does not (implies current)" and "did not (imples the past)". Also in what was quoted of me, I listed wow as "subscription based" in quotations next to it, seeing as it was the only p2p game the study quoted, further leading to its validity coming into question.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/04/13 4:01:12 PM#168

Here is the entire arctile.  There are links to a bit more information but sources are not stated.  They do mention WoW at the bottom along with Aion and SwTor but do not imply that this their only data.

 

Overview

This case study (.pdf) evaluates the performance of the US free-to-play (F2P) market to determine its viability as a strong revenue model relative to the existing pay-to-play (P2P) market. The report looks at the overall monthly active users (MAU) for F2P and P2P and spending in each of these segments. We also use specific case studies (e.g. Star Wars: The Old Republic) of games that switched from P2P to F2P and the changes that the titles saw in key performance metrics.

To purchase a single issue of this report, please click the button below. Let us know if you have any questions.

To learn more about our MMO research, including our methodology, key performance indicators, and title-level revenue estimates, please visit our subscription page.

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People who bought this report also read:

Free-to-Play MMO Games Market
US MMO monthly active users 2007 to 2012E (millions)
Monthly US spending on MMOs 2007 to 2012E ($ millions)
Free-to-play spending ratio vs. free-to-play gamer ratio (US)
World of Warcraft break-even point for free-to-play vs. total US market size (millions)
Monthly revenue generated by a P2P title, after switching to F2P or F2P Hybrid ($ millions)
Aion and Star Wars: The Old Republic metrics before and after switch to F2P

Everthing Else
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Fine Print

In their methodoly section they state 350 titles, implying far more than WoW.  In fact nowhere in the article that I can find does it state or even imply or hint that WoW is their only source.

:

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

4/04/13 4:04:26 PM#169

F2P will always be mediocre.

There are already demands for World of Darkness to be subscription based, because we all know what the communities are like in F2P.

Also, the quality of the game is ALWAYS better for sub games, there is always more to offer, and without any additional costs!!

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1428

4/04/13 4:07:29 PM#170
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Here is the entire arctile.  There are links to a bit more information but sources are not stated.  They do mention WoW at the bottom along with Aion and SwTor but do not imply that this their only data.

 

Overview

This case study (.pdf) evaluates the performance of the US free-to-play (F2P) market to determine its viability as a strong revenue model relative to the existing pay-to-play (P2P) market. The report looks at the overall monthly active users (MAU) for F2P and P2P and spending in each of these segments. We also use specific case studies (e.g. Star Wars: The Old Republic) of games that switched from P2P to F2P and the changes that the titles saw in key performance metrics.

To purchase a single issue of this report, please click the button below. Let us know if you have any questions.

To learn more about our MMO research, including our methodology, key performance indicators, and title-level revenue estimates, please visit our subscription page.

Add to Cart

People who bought this report also read:

Free-to-Play MMO Games Market
US MMO monthly active users 2007 to 2012E (millions)
Monthly US spending on MMOs 2007 to 2012E ($ millions)
Free-to-play spending ratio vs. free-to-play gamer ratio (US)
World of Warcraft break-even point for free-to-play vs. total US market size (millions)
Monthly revenue generated by a P2P title, after switching to F2P or F2P Hybrid ($ millions)
Aion and Star Wars: The Old Republic metrics before and after switch to F2P

Everthing Else
About
Contact
Fine Print

In their methodoly section they state 350 titles, implying far more than WoW.  In fact nowhere in the article that I can find does it state or even imply or hint that WoW is their only source.

:

 

For starters, they are only comparing revenus to a break even WoW (again, the only P2P game they mention by name, yet they mention multiple F2P games by name)? They also dont specify how many of those 350 titles are p2p, or f2p, which makes a world of difference.....that does not raise a red flag to you?

Secondly, why do poeple keep ignoring the fact that their F2P metrics include the hundreds (yes, possibly the majority of the "350") of browser based games?

I already agreed that free browser based game are more popular, but thats not what this thread was about, which is the entire point of every one of my posts. You can harp on WoW subs all you want, the underlying point is that their "6 to 1" study is bogus in regards to this discussion.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/04/13 4:08:06 PM#171
Originally posted by Adalwulff

F2P will always be mediocre.

There are already demands for World of Darkness to be subscription based, because we all know what the communities are like in F2P.

Also, the quality of the game is ALWAYS better for sub games, there is always more to offer, and without any additional costs!!

 Between f2p and p2p I have noticed no difference in quality, content, depth or customer service.  They are about the same. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/04/13 4:11:21 PM#172
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Here is the entire arctile.  There are links to a bit more information but sources are not stated.  They do mention WoW at the bottom along with Aion and SwTor but do not imply that this their only data.

 

Overview

This case study (.pdf) evaluates the performance of the US free-to-play (F2P) market to determine its viability as a strong revenue model relative to the existing pay-to-play (P2P) market. The report looks at the overall monthly active users (MAU) for F2P and P2P and spending in each of these segments. We also use specific case studies (e.g. Star Wars: The Old Republic) of games that switched from P2P to F2P and the changes that the titles saw in key performance metrics.

To purchase a single issue of this report, please click the button below. Let us know if you have any questions.

To learn more about our MMO research, including our methodology, key performance indicators, and title-level revenue estimates, please visit our subscription page.

Add to Cart

People who bought this report also read:

Free-to-Play MMO Games Market
US MMO monthly active users 2007 to 2012E (millions)
Monthly US spending on MMOs 2007 to 2012E ($ millions)
Free-to-play spending ratio vs. free-to-play gamer ratio (US)
World of Warcraft break-even point for free-to-play vs. total US market size (millions)
Monthly revenue generated by a P2P title, after switching to F2P or F2P Hybrid ($ millions)
Aion and Star Wars: The Old Republic metrics before and after switch to F2P

Everthing Else
About
Contact
Fine Print

In their methodoly section they state 350 titles, implying far more than WoW.  In fact nowhere in the article that I can find does it state or even imply or hint that WoW is their only source.

:

 

For starters, they are only comparing revenus to a break even WoW. They also dont specify how many of those 350 titles are p2p, or f2p, which makes a world of difference.....that does not raise a red flag to you?

Secondly, why do poeple keep ignoring the fact that their F2P metrics include the hundreds (yes, possibly the majority of the "350") of browser based games?

I already agreed that free browser based game are more popular, but thats not what this thread was about, which is the entire point of every one of my posts. You can harp on WoW subs all you want, the underlying point is that their "6 to 1" study is bogus in regards to this discussion.

 Um no they aren't.  They mentioned the break even point of wow but nowhere do they imply that is the only aspect.  In fact it is below the actual article implying that that is other aspects of informatino that the company has.  It may or may not be related to this article. 

Hundreds of f2p titles - why shouldn't it.  They are comparing MMO's, browser based MMO's are still MMO's. 

The point of this thread is that f2p has increased and p2p has decreased.  Thats it. 

6:1 is totally legitimate if you are talking about demographics. 

edit -regarding which are p2p and which are f2p, it doesn't raise a red flag for me right now.  I would hope that more specific information would be obtained if we actually bought their research.  We are just being given a sample of what they have. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1428

4/04/13 4:13:09 PM#173
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Here is the entire arctile.  There are links to a bit more information but sources are not stated.  They do mention WoW at the bottom along with Aion and SwTor but do not imply that this their only data.

 

Overview

This case study (.pdf) evaluates the performance of the US free-to-play (F2P) market to determine its viability as a strong revenue model relative to the existing pay-to-play (P2P) market. The report looks at the overall monthly active users (MAU) for F2P and P2P and spending in each of these segments. We also use specific case studies (e.g. Star Wars: The Old Republic) of games that switched from P2P to F2P and the changes that the titles saw in key performance metrics.

To purchase a single issue of this report, please click the button below. Let us know if you have any questions.

To learn more about our MMO research, including our methodology, key performance indicators, and title-level revenue estimates, please visit our subscription page.

Add to Cart

People who bought this report also read:

Free-to-Play MMO Games Market
US MMO monthly active users 2007 to 2012E (millions)
Monthly US spending on MMOs 2007 to 2012E ($ millions)
Free-to-play spending ratio vs. free-to-play gamer ratio (US)
World of Warcraft break-even point for free-to-play vs. total US market size (millions)
Monthly revenue generated by a P2P title, after switching to F2P or F2P Hybrid ($ millions)
Aion and Star Wars: The Old Republic metrics before and after switch to F2P

Everthing Else
About
Contact
Fine Print

In their methodoly section they state 350 titles, implying far more than WoW.  In fact nowhere in the article that I can find does it state or even imply or hint that WoW is their only source.

:

 

For starters, they are only comparing revenus to a break even WoW. They also dont specify how many of those 350 titles are p2p, or f2p, which makes a world of difference.....that does not raise a red flag to you?

Secondly, why do poeple keep ignoring the fact that their F2P metrics include the hundreds (yes, possibly the majority of the "350") of browser based games?

I already agreed that free browser based game are more popular, but thats not what this thread was about, which is the entire point of every one of my posts. You can harp on WoW subs all you want, the underlying point is that their "6 to 1" study is bogus in regards to this discussion.

 Um no they aren't.  They mentioned the break even point of wow but nowhere do they imply that is the only aspect.  In fact it is below the actual article implying that that is other aspects of informatino that the company has.  It may or may not be related to this article. 

Hundreds of f2p titles - why shouldn't it.  They are comparing MMO's, browser based MMO's are still MMO's. 

The point of this thread is that f2p has increased and p2p has decreased.  Thats it. 

6:1 is totally legitimate if you are talking about demographics. 

Thats where I draw the line is this discussion. I guess I am arguing sometihnhg this thread was not about...my apologies...

On a side note, ill stick to my actual client based MMORPGs.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/04/13 4:17:29 PM#174
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Here is the entire arctile.  There are links to a bit more information but sources are not stated.  They do mention WoW at the bottom along with Aion and SwTor but do not imply that this their only data.

 

Overview

This case study (.pdf) evaluates the performance of the US free-to-play (F2P) market to determine its viability as a strong revenue model relative to the existing pay-to-play (P2P) market. The report looks at the overall monthly active users (MAU) for F2P and P2P and spending in each of these segments. We also use specific case studies (e.g. Star Wars: The Old Republic) of games that switched from P2P to F2P and the changes that the titles saw in key performance metrics.

To purchase a single issue of this report, please click the button below. Let us know if you have any questions.

To learn more about our MMO research, including our methodology, key performance indicators, and title-level revenue estimates, please visit our subscription page.

Add to Cart

People who bought this report also read:

Free-to-Play MMO Games Market
US MMO monthly active users 2007 to 2012E (millions)
Monthly US spending on MMOs 2007 to 2012E ($ millions)
Free-to-play spending ratio vs. free-to-play gamer ratio (US)
World of Warcraft break-even point for free-to-play vs. total US market size (millions)
Monthly revenue generated by a P2P title, after switching to F2P or F2P Hybrid ($ millions)
Aion and Star Wars: The Old Republic metrics before and after switch to F2P

Everthing Else
About
Contact
Fine Print

In their methodoly section they state 350 titles, implying far more than WoW.  In fact nowhere in the article that I can find does it state or even imply or hint that WoW is their only source.

:

 

For starters, they are only comparing revenus to a break even WoW. They also dont specify how many of those 350 titles are p2p, or f2p, which makes a world of difference.....that does not raise a red flag to you?

Secondly, why do poeple keep ignoring the fact that their F2P metrics include the hundreds (yes, possibly the majority of the "350") of browser based games?

I already agreed that free browser based game are more popular, but thats not what this thread was about, which is the entire point of every one of my posts. You can harp on WoW subs all you want, the underlying point is that their "6 to 1" study is bogus in regards to this discussion.

 Um no they aren't.  They mentioned the break even point of wow but nowhere do they imply that is the only aspect.  In fact it is below the actual article implying that that is other aspects of informatino that the company has.  It may or may not be related to this article. 

Hundreds of f2p titles - why shouldn't it.  They are comparing MMO's, browser based MMO's are still MMO's. 

The point of this thread is that f2p has increased and p2p has decreased.  Thats it. 

6:1 is totally legitimate if you are talking about demographics. 

Riddle me this, why is WoW the only P2P game mentioned by name, yet multiple FTP games are mentioned multiple times?

 Because Wowis the most popular and dominant game in the market?  Because if they are trying to sell their research they better have information available about the most popular and dominant game in the market or the people that would be interested in buying that research would not think it was complete?

Because the other 2 are either quite popular globally (Aion) or the most expensive so far (swtor) and in Swtor's case they made a huge splash and sunk in the MMO world. 

Because their data is relevant for comparison?

Because their data is some of the biggest and relatively newest titles to go f2p?

There are numerous reasons why they add them.  The simplest and probably most correct, they thought it would appeal enough that people would buy the research. 

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/04/13 4:20:18 PM#175
Yes, the market has spoken...

Battlefield, League of Legends, Sim City... all part of the online market have spoken. The massage is quite clear, that people who play online arcade games, don'nt want subscriptions to games that traditionally never had them.

Why would someone pay a monthly subscription for bf4..? Doesnt make sense, yet it is an online game.


The online market has spoken and it has said that of all the online games in existance... mmorpg's are a niche and not mainstream.


This is MMORPG.com... figure it out.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  Lissyl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 232

If cosmetics aren't content, why don't people demand a cheaper game done in full grayscale?

4/04/13 4:56:58 PM#176
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Between f2p and p2p I have noticed no difference in quality, content, depth or customer service.  They are about the same. 

If you think Turbine or Gpotato have the same Customer Service as Blizzard, I fear you are delusional.  To quote, it's not in the same ballpark.  Its not the same league.  It isn't even the same blankin' sport.  Content, I agree with.  Depth...usually, but not always.  Quality, well, no one polishes as well as Blizzard, but if you remove Blizzard then yah even quality is about the same.  But not customer service.  Not at all.

 

I do notice that the report y'all are looking at mentions, in that methodology section, the country.  I really find no surprise that if you add up f2p's in other countries they're going to out-total p2p.  I'm pretty sure Nexon could do that alone.  But is that a fair comparison?

  BlueTiger33

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/13
Posts: 169

4/04/13 4:58:45 PM#177

As long as there are numerous benefits to subbing such as increased exp and other models (like SWTOR) then I don't mind being in the game with F2P'ers.

 

Allow me a whole lot of cosmetic options as well as a denefit "nod" from developers for being sub and I can play along.


I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
My Blog

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

4/04/13 5:03:28 PM#178

Sub games are the best because you know all the players you meet have a reasonable level of committment to being around in the future.

These ftp games are very unsociable, players are fleety, just not the same experience at all.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2406

World > Quest Progression

4/04/13 5:06:51 PM#179
Does any F2P/P2P model make a distinction between subs and free players within each game? For instance, do they count EQ2 as a F2P game and count it's revenue as F2P? That would be misleading since there are people who pay a sub. In fact, most western MMOs that are "F2P" have a subscription model as well. Are those seperated? If not the statistics are skewed from the start and can be taken with a grain of salt.

It is good to see the playerbase get bigger though even if the majority aren't used to paying, yet.
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/04/13 6:13:18 PM#180
Originally posted by Lissyl
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Between f2p and p2p I have noticed no difference in quality, content, depth or customer service.  They are about the same. 

If you think Turbine or Gpotato have the same Customer Service as Blizzard, I fear you are delusional.  To quote, it's not in the same ballpark.  Its not the same league.  It isn't even the same blankin' sport.  Content, I agree with.  Depth...usually, but not always.  Quality, well, no one polishes as well as Blizzard, but if you remove Blizzard then yah even quality is about the same.  But not customer service.  Not at all.

 

I do notice that the report y'all are looking at mentions, in that methodology section, the country.  I really find no surprise that if you add up f2p's in other countries they're going to out-total p2p.  I'm pretty sure Nexon could do that alone.  But is that a fair comparison?

 Gpotato, cant' say haven't played their games.  But for ncsoft, Soe, turbine and gamersfirst with FE, no I have not noticed any difference in CS.  Had good service and bad service in all other them.  Sometimes quick, sometimes slow.

Actually Gamersfirst has actually had the best cs IMO, almost always quick and resolved quick.

My only real question in the report how are they ensureing that people are not being duplicated.

I'm assuming they do not have access to actual accounts.  So all they can do is say blizzard has 5 million (number made up as an example), farmville has 10 million, therefore the market is 15 million.  However 4 million of those wow players also play farmville making the market only 11 million - interested to see how the correct for that.

f2p and p2p are both played on a global level.  As long as they look at p2p in other countries it's a fair comparison.

edit - @aelious that too, I think there may be a lot of duplication going on.

edit - gpotato - may be a really bad one.  But there are really bad p2p as well, NPCube and Farlan entertainment anyone? 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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