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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?

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246 posts found
  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

4/03/13 8:37:39 PM#101
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by botrytis

As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?

In theory, investing in a startup offests the risks of putting in that money against the potential rewards of even more money coming back if the startup is successful.  Kickstarter doesn't (usually) buy you an actual share in the project's success.

That difference isn't enough to deter me from putting some money into kickstart projects that interest me, but I can understand why others might feel differently.

  xKingdomx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/10
Posts: 1550

4/04/13 2:36:06 AM#102

What people don't understand is that Kickstarter is not meant to fund a startup, kickstarter prevents any kind of startup funding from happening on their service. Kickstarter is only meant for a project to project basis.

As for looking at funding projects on kickstarter, it isn't much of funding as much as supporting a project. Kickstarter is placed almost at the preparation stage of a project, and not meant to fund the project for the entire life line. If a kickstarter project can use those raised money for the entire project, they must have done ridiculous well on kickstarter.

Kickstarter is built for what it is suppose to do, to kickstart a project, not to fund a project. There are other platforms for that.

 

As for the OP, one is from the consumer's POV, one from an investor's POV, you can't compare them.

 

How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5180

4/04/13 2:44:39 AM#103
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

 

In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

 You get the same perks with pledging as like with normal pre-orders.

Yes... the difference with Pre-Orders is that there actually is a game that is (mostly) finished.

The only person I have ever pledged for, is for Star Citizen, as Robert actually still has a clean track record.

Both Mark Jacobs and Richard Garriott have developed overinflated EGO's over the years and have turned themselves into the joke of the game industry. Hence, why they resort to Kickstarter all the sudden.... as it's the only way they will be able to get any money anymore.

Well, they won't get a dime from me.

  firefly2003

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/16/08
Posts: 2573

I miss you Star Wars Galaxies...:(

4/04/13 3:14:14 AM#104
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Remember this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

People get so much flak for pre ordering a MMO for merely 50 to 60 bucks while people pledge hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money on kickstarters. How is it any different? all you got is word of the developers and big promises. You don't get to participate before hand or test anything before handing out your hard earned cash.

Atleast, people who pre order have enough videos, previews and beta testing to make up their mind while pledgers just go by someone's word alone and promises which might be as real as pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Can anyone help me understand why former is bad and looked down upon in general while later is ok and encouraged?

I think its mainly people donate to Kickstarter projects due to the type of games being made that publishers are too much of pansy's to make cause it isn't labeled Call Of Duty... people want different things, people want new ideas,  not the same ol crap a publisher continues to throw out at consumers and that's why people at 3 different studios this week either shut down completely (Lucasarts) and people lost their jobs due to the greed or lackluster games being pushed to the public.

There may be develoepers on Kickstarter who might not deliver but the ones that do bring something new to the table that gets us hard about gaming again. And that is a good thing.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17216

4/04/13 7:05:03 AM#105
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by botrytis

As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?

In theory, investing in a startup offests the risks of putting in that money against the potential rewards of even more money coming back if the startup is successful.  Kickstarter doesn't (usually) buy you an actual share in the project's success.

That difference isn't enough to deter me from putting some money into kickstart projects that interest me, but I can understand why others might feel differently.

Well of course that's true. And  the the amounts that people put into kickstarter are pretty paltry when compared to the larger sums of investing in a starting business.

I just don't see the big deal in the differences between one's payoff.

He says that it's like begging for money for a project that might not even make it to completion. So it's ok for companies to "beg' for money for their projects as long as the investor gets a financial benefit? It's better to put far larger sums into the startup that the investor could very well lose over much smaller sums which the investor could very well lose.

It's still pretty much the same thing: company says that if you invest you get "X" provided we are successful. Investor considers the investment desires "x" and makes that investment and hopes they are sucessfull. If they are successfull they get what they wanted. Whether that's money or a game that would not have been made if it weren't for investors.

 

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

4/04/13 8:05:50 AM#106

As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk.  If the project folds, the donors get their money back.  If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.

It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop.  It discourages investment in general.  Kickstarter helps prevent that. 

When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win.  Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

 
OP  4/04/13 8:09:55 AM#107
Originally posted by Nightgroper
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Nightgroper

I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.

Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.

He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.

I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.

 

It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.

Yes buying anything is risky but what is more risky? placing a pre order for mere 50 to 60 bucks after watching lots of previews and video footage, participating in beta and testing the game before hand or spending hundered of dollars on mere promises of some guy who has his way with words and want to sell you a bridge to MMO utopia?

You mean Aliens Colonial Marines? Bam! In your overly pompous face!

I think you missed that part where i said everything is risky but which is more considering people pledge a lot more money in kickstarters than say pre ordering the game. Which can be cancelled very easily. How easy is it to cancel your pledge?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

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  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/04/13 8:37:51 AM#108

In answer to the original question:

Neither is 'bad' - provided the person pre-ordering or pledging is given honest information and is fully aware of what they are doing and the risks involved.

And, sadly, that is where the problem lies.

My biggest concern is for the adolescents in either case.  These are people who are sometimes a little nieve about the ways of business and don't fully comprehend what they are reading / being told.

Another issue is consumer protection laws.

In the case of pre-orders (where I live - Australia) made in a store you are protected by law against false advertising.  So if a game fails to deliver on "promises" (features are not included, performance is not up to an acceptable standard) then you are entitled to your money back.

Purchases over the internet (including Kickstarter) do not have this protection.  (Kickstarter refunds are based on good faith)

 

 

My biggest concern over the last few years is that many companies seem to be exploiting impatientence and gullability of consumers.  Also the fact that many consumers are not protected by decent consumer protection laws.  That includes preorders and Kickstarter projects.

 

I have no issue with Kickstarter projects like the Double Fine Adventure because IIRC Tim Schafer was clear from the start that the project could be a failure or a success but either way backers would get to watch the documentary.  The scope of the project was clear (one game, point and click, 6-8 months, documentary) and the chance of failure was made clear.  And it is worth noting that the project did "fail" because it is over time and over budget - but as promised we got to see the details.

What I do have an issue with is certain recent Kickstarters that offer very vague scope and seem to rely totally on fanboi-ism.

With pre-orders I have serious issues with sales prior to release based of very sketchy information, restricted gameplay knowledge, bait advertising such as linking the sale to another product (buy a lifetime subscription and get beta access to project X).

 

So, I don't see either as 'bad' - provided people are aware of exactly what they are spending their money on.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Hodo

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/08
Posts: 559

4/04/13 8:42:36 AM#109

I dont understand why the mindless masses insist on being the "first" into a game, or paying 60, 70 even 100 EUD just to get into a game a week early or get a stupid 2" peuter figure or some pleather dice bag or a paper map. 

 

Kickstarters arent much better in my mind either.   The developers are being a little more honest and just saying, "hey we are broke, and to lazy/proud/ignorant to get financial backing." 

 

And if it doesnt work, you the person paying dont end up paying a dime.   So ultimately it comes out to be zero risk investment by the player, and low risk for the developer.   The problems arise if a company pulls a stunt like some other developers have in the past.   If you get a developer that starts a kickstarter and puts out a decent demo to draw enough funds in and then pulls the plug after the goals have been met, and they take the money and run, there is nothing you can do about it.  

 

So to me Kickstarter is a double edged sword, it cuts out the middle man and the trash producer who pushes out junk and then pulls out the last minute.   (See Strategy First  WWIIOL)  But those producers, gave some balance to the system incase of failure.    Kickstarter does not, if they meet their goals they get their money, and there is no legally binding agreement that they have to do what they stated in that agreement other than give you what you paid for.   So if you paid for early access, you will get early access, no telling what that product might be.  

So much crap, so little quality.

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

4/04/13 9:01:13 AM#110
It has probably been mentioned but I'm too lazy to read all these pages and find out so just in case... it could be that they think if they put money into Kickstarter they will have some say in how the game plays. Sort of a seat next to the devs for sale. They will get exclusive info perhaps too before others, people love knowing things in advance.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12271

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

4/04/13 9:18:50 AM#111
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by botrytis

As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?

Donation - an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.

Investment - money or capital used in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

You will notice the words 'investment' and 'investor' do not appear anywhere on the Kickstarter site.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5785

4/04/13 9:29:17 AM#112
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by botrytis

As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?

Donation - an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.

Investment - money or capital used in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

You will notice the words 'investment' and 'investor' do not appear anywhere on the Kickstarter site.

Your definitions are a bit confining.  An investment doesn't have to be a financial investment where you get a dividend or can cash out a stock.  You can invest in something for some sort of non-financial return, in this case "investors" get a product upon success or nothing upon failure.

It's also more than a donation because donations typically don't imply a return of some sort whereas the KS does, except at the lowest tiers.

I do agree though, it's not a financial investment and the "physical" return is minimal.  The comparison to investing in a startup is way off base.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12271

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

4/04/13 9:39:00 AM#113
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by botrytis

As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?

Donation - an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.

Investment - money or capital used in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

You will notice the words 'investment' and 'investor' do not appear anywhere on the Kickstarter site.

Your definitions are a bit confining.  An investment doesn't have to be a financial investment where you get a dividend or can cash out a stock.  You can invest in something for some sort of non-financial return, in this case "investors" get a product upon success or nothing upon failure.

It's also more than a donation because donations typically don't imply a return of some sort whereas the KS does, except at the lowest tiers.

I do agree though, it's not a financial investment and the "physical" return is minimal.  The comparison to investing in a startup is way off base.

You are correct, an investment does not have to be financial. I was answering his question as to the difference between donating to Kickstarter and investing in a startup.

However, it is not more than a donation, and solicited donations commonly do have a return of some type, from return address stamps to tote bags that has been commonplace for since the medical society and non-profit telethons and postal mailings. The return is a show of gratitude and it is explicitly noted in most charity and donation drives that the donation is not payment for the gift, if for no other reason than such a transaction would be taxable.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

4/04/13 9:53:43 AM#114

Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation.  At times, it is.  It depends on the Kickstarter. 

More often than not, that's all I see a Kickstarter as.  You pay for the product up front, often allowing you to get a better deal on it.  If enough people take advantage of the promotion, then the creators can be assured that the project will meet its funding goals.  If they don't, then the project doesn't happen.  Groupon basically does the same thing for existing businesses/products.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

 
OP  4/04/13 10:01:27 AM#115
Originally posted by Everwest

Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation.  At times, it is.  It depends on the Kickstarter. 

More often than not, that's all I see a Kickstarter as.  You pay for the product up front, often allowing you to get a better deal on it.  If enough people take advantage of the promotion, then the creators can be assured that the project will meet its funding goals.  If they don't, then the project doesn't happen.  Groupon basically does the same thing for existing businesses/products.

Maybe it is a donation but i don't think a  player who pledges 500 to 1000 on kickstarter thinks he is just donating the money.

Also people keep saying that devs start kickstarter to make the game that players want but to me they do this to make the games they want. And generally what devs want and the players want is not the same and even kickstarter can not guarantee that.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
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  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

4/04/13 10:06:59 AM#116
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Everwest

Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation.  At times, it is.  It depends on the Kickstarter. 

More often than not, that's all I see a Kickstarter as.  You pay for the product up front, often allowing you to get a better deal on it.  If enough people take advantage of the promotion, then the creators can be assured that the project will meet its funding goals.  If they don't, then the project doesn't happen.  Groupon basically does the same thing for existing businesses/products.

Maybe it is a donation but i don't think a  player who pledges 500 to 1000 on kickstarter thinks he is just donating the money.

Also people keep saying that devs start kickstarter to make the game that players want but to me they do this to make the games they want. And generally what devs want and the players want is not the same and even kickstarter can not guarantee that.

I'd agree--if a player donates that much, they feel that they're getting something out of it, or at least expect to.  At most reward levels, it's not a donation as much as a transaction.  It's a transaction with a certain amount of risk, but not so much more than going to a restaurant or a movie--you have to pay even if what you got wasn't quite what you hoped for.

Regarding the latter: Devs are players.  Quite often, the games they want to make are the games the players want.  It's not like any two players want exactly the same thing.  The point is, they're offering to make something that might appeal to a certain player population, and probably wouldn't be greenlighted otherwise.  So it is a chance to have something that you want to play made.  Besides, as a dev, one of the best pieces of advice you can follow is to make the game you want to play.

  NobleNerd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/08/08
Posts: 460

Try not!Do or do notThere is no try.

4/04/13 10:08:51 AM#117
They are both a marketing tool to get the maximum amount of revenue from the customer to profit from the game. Both are valid, but we are heading into questionable practices with all this new "founder" and get in early marketing. At one time Betas use to be a tool used by companies to allow a group of dedicated gamers to help test and finish their game, NOW ..... it is another way to market your game for maximum profit. If anything should make people upset that should be the thing. 
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12271

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

4/04/13 10:09:32 AM#118
Originally posted by Everwest

Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation. 

An individual's misconception of the transaction does not change the type of transaction. That said, the misconception that one is doing anything more than simply donating is probably what gets a lot of Kickstarters funded.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

4/04/13 10:12:01 AM#119
Because humans are very very good at justifying whatever suits their fancy and criticizing other peoples actions, regardless how much those actions parallel each other.
  Bossalinie

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 625

4/04/13 10:24:53 AM#120
Originally posted by Everwest

As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk.  If the project folds, the donors get their money back.  If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.

It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop.  It discourages investment in general.  Kickstarter helps prevent that. 

When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win.  Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.

That is part of it, but once the project begins and then folds, you get nothing back. That there is your risk.

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