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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?

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246 posts found
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6110

4/03/13 11:18:41 AM#81
Originally posted by Magnum2103

I've preordered lots of games (not hundreds, but close) and have yet to be disappointed.  I don't typically waste my time downloading games of demos I'm sure I'm going to purchase anyway and a lot of my preorders of MMOs at least I do play the beta before preordering.  Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is.  I usually don't preorder for incentives or anything, I just want to play the game immediately when it is released.  You can call it hype or whatever, but I have yet to be disappointed yet.  I typically only preorder a game I have a lot of information about (mainly gameplay trailers) and from companies I trust.

I also use Kickstarter.  I can say that I have been disappointed with it a few times, but I understand Kickstarter is more of a gamble.  I've only Kickstarted 14 projects in about 2 years time here, and I've only had one project fully deliver (three partially delivered so far) and many projects are now late on their proposed deadlines, though a few still have time to reach there.  Still, I like the concept of Kickstarter.  I generally use Kickstarter for different reasons than preordering:

Typically when I look at Kickstarter projects and decide whether or not to back I look at the following:

  • Developer's experience and reputation.  Did they develop commerical games?  Were these quality games?  Are these the kind of games I enjoyed?  Do they always deliver on promises?
  • Scope versus Funding Goal:  Is the scope realistic within the budget they are asking?
  • Is the project unique (or just different) in such a way that they definitely couldn't get it accepted by a publisher/distributor in this day and age or would a publisher/distributor just interfere with the overall design?
  • Does the game (or other project) itself look like it's going to be a lot of fun or something I need?
  • Are other people confident enough to back it?  I use Kicktraq to determine mean backing amount and trends to decide if it will be successfully funded or not.  Projects that are close to their backing goal on the trend or close to a stretch goal I want tend to give me more incentive to back the project because it feels like my money is helping it reach it's goal moreso than a project that is way over their goal.
  • Are the incentives for backing something I want / will use?  Are the reward goals fair?  Am I benefitting specifically for backing the project early or would it be better to just wait for the project to reach a bargain price?
  • Are the developers active in Kickstarter updates for the project?  Sometimes I'll send an e-mail with questions to see how fast they respond.  This tells me the developer will be active in keeping updates when the Kickstarter ends and possibly even have feedback influence design decisions.
  • The overall quality and effort that went into the Kickstarter page and video.  Again, it tells me if they are taking the Kickstarter as their means of funding seriously or not.
One additional note is I don't think I've ever backed early.  The earliest I've ever backed a Kickstarter project is about 10 days in.
 
I know I went a little off topic, but I think understanding my reasoning on why I back particular Kickstarter projects is better than just saying general reasons for backing projects on Kickstarter in the first place.

 

This is a good post in my opinion.  I haven't funded a KS project yet, but I have directly funded small/indie projects early on.  I ask myself similar questions.  I typically wait until the developer or project has something to show for itself, can show a revenue plan, and can demonstrate a level of professionalism that sends a message they're serious.

Curse you AquaScum!

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

4/03/13 11:24:00 AM#82
Originally posted by Miblet

I personally think it's bad for both but eh.

 

I can't understand the investor comparison for Kickstarter as surely an investor looks forward to and aims for a return (of which you cannot see via Kickstarter), Kickstarter is far more like a donation...for a project you like the sound of...before anything is put in motion.  I can understand people would like to see good games but is there really that little out there that we are now moving into the era of paying for the chance to have a game you like?

For some of us, yes.

Those who are content with what's being shoveled out these days, will obviously feel differently.  But for some of us, all we see is a whole lot of "not interesting" and very little "interesting."  So we're a bit more wiling to risk our money on a potential project that does look interesting.  And why not?  It's not like that money is getting spent on any of the games that don't interest us.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/03/13 12:08:01 PM#83

Really didn't read the bulk of the thread...don't care about it much except to clarify.

 

The simple answer:

Kickstarter actually goes to the game and the development, the game development literally is based on whether or not they raise enough money.

Pre-orders go to the company, the game is being made either way, you pre-ordering just gives them confidence in the market awaiting the game.

 

Personally I don't do either.  If it's on Kickstarter and gets funded then I know there will be enough of a base to actually play the game, hopefully.  At this point there's no point to pre-ordering because they don't ever sell out completely.  This didn't used to be the case back when they started pre-ordering, so the idea is more just for the bonuses (if they're worth it).

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/03/13 12:38:25 PM#84
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Can anyone help me understand why former is bad and looked down upon in general while later is ok and encouraged?

One of the easiest ways to solve the problem of something getting a bad reputation is to simply change the name. The truth is today's gamers are an easy mark, and marketing teams have been successfully playing the polarization and bias of the consumer base rather well.

It's about getting people to pay for a product before the product is even shipped. So far, with MMO gamers, there really hasn't been any fear of gamers catching on, especially since the gamers are doing the work for them. As distribution changes, so do the ways that developers/publishers get people to pay for products before they are even created. The shift to digital drove the necessity to change how to get money prior to shipping.

Pre-orders led to pre-order with bonus to pre-purchase and pre-purchase with bonus

which then opened the door for deluxe and collectors editions but they still required a physical product

because, seriously, who's going to pay 60-160 USD for a download?

Well, no one until that becomes more commonplace which is about where we are now

Companies can now pick and choose how they are going to get their early cash

  • Kickstarter and IndieGoGo (WTF would anyone back an IndieGoGo project???) to get support money rolling in
  • Microtransactions during beta (usually with points refunded at release) allows people to buy in at the level they want to in earlier stages
  • Buy to Play - the newest and the golden egg for Western F2P devs. Gamers handed devs this gem on a silver platter. What do MMO gamers rage against? F2P. Why do they rage against it? The microtransactions. Somewhere in the wide world of GW2 awesomenewss, players latched on to "Buy to Play" and bought into it hardcore. Expect more devs to start using that term, because 1) F2P is still viewed by many as lesser quality 2) F2P is perceived as 'pay to win' and 3) old myths and false talking points such as "it will cost more than a subscription per month" couldn't even be pried from a jaded gamer's cold dead typing hands. Buy to Play is brilliant. It let's the consumer position positively against subscription without it being perceived as free to play. Dodges the usual F2P bullets, AND gets people to pay a box fee up from for a F2P game.
Kickstarter is just one of several current ways to get money from gamers up front. It isn't too far removed from pre-order, except that pre-order guarantees you'll get a product or your moeny back eventaully. Kickstarter carries no such guarantee.
 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/03/13 12:51:05 PM#85

"Kickstarter's clients ARE the people who pledge money. If Kickstarter didn't ensure that people weren't getting scammed, people wouldn't use it, and then Kickstarter wouldn't make any money. There is a contract, and it gives a very strict outline of what is required from the developer." - DavisFlight

False. Kickstarter collects money from the project starter, not the backer.

 



"If a project fails, no one gets charged." - DavisFlight

"You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would." - DavisFlight

If a project fails after funding has completed, no one gets their money back. The developer is obligated to genuinely try to create the game, they don't have to actually make it.

 



"It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter." - DavisFlight

Yes. Yes, it is.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

4/03/13 1:13:18 PM#86

I never tell anyone else what to do with thier money.

However, I think you mis-understand the basic purpose of Kickstarters. When you GIVE money to a Kickstarter you are NOT purchasing a product. You are making a GIFT toward an individual or group trying to produce a creative work. You may be given some sort of "thank you" item in return for your gift...but it is NOT a purchase and you really shouldn't expect anything back.

Kickstarter is a way for small independant artists or groups to secure funding for thier projects that aren't able to secure funding through traditional means. This means a greater diversity of products will get produced and there will be a greater diversity of producers. In the macro sense, this is good for consumers particularly ones with niche tastes, as it creates greater competition in the market and it means ALL producers, even big ones have to put out better products and treat their customers better.

In the micro sense, smaller independant producers tend to have a closer relationship with thier individual customers because those individual customers make up a larger portion of thier revenue base, they are inclined to treat them better then a larger company.

Many people are disinclined to pre-order from many of the large producers because they've been burned too many times by those very same producers. They've noted a tendency from them to produce sub-standard products which are sold mostly on thier marketing budgets and hype.

I personaly won't pre-order any titles from the big game producers for that very reason. However I will happily pre-order from some (non MMO) game producers because I have been impressed with the quality of products produced by them and the quality of service I have recieved in the past. Therefore they have already established a good reputation with me. I would do the same if any big producers could meet that threshold...so far none have.

In terms of Kickstarters, I rarely participate them....but I occasionaly might be willing to contribute a few dollars to a project that I think is really worthy.....especialy if the principles involved have a past reputation for solid dealings and high quality work. As with anything else, one will see better results if one does some homework on who one chooses to hand money. YMMV.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2830

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

4/03/13 1:18:03 PM#87
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Remember this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

People get so much flak for pre ordering a MMO for merely 50 to 60 bucks while people pledge hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money on kickstarters. How is it any different? all you got is word of the developers and big promises. You don't get to participate before hand or test anything before handing out your hard earned cash.

Atleast, people who pre order have enough videos, previews and beta testing to make up their mind while pledgers just go by someone's word alone and promises which might be as real as pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Can anyone help me understand why former is bad and looked down upon in general while later is ok and encouraged?

While I have kickstarted 2 games so far.  1 successfully and the other not so much.  I did both because I wanted to see their game come to life.  I also preorder the hell out of a game I look forward to.  I see nothing wrong with either but I do have a problem with someone kickstarting a game and then being hyporcritical towards me because I bought a $200 Neverwinter Founders pack.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2830

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

4/03/13 1:20:39 PM#88
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

 

In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

If this was true then the kicstarter project wouldn't offer all thsoe incentives.  Because they do offer all thsoe incentives they are in fact eliciting the same response as someone who preorders.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5814

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

4/03/13 1:27:11 PM#89
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

 

In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

you pay X amount before the game is made. The developer shares his vision with you. You interpret that vision in your own ways. THe game launches with the developer vision and not exactly how  you envisioned the idea he shared with you. You end up with a game you dont like. You lost your money.

Kickstarter is a much riskier way to invest in games as a consumer. Both kickstarter and pre purchasing are bad. But if im doing one of the two i'd prepurchase something that i already tried the beta or at least seen enough content before making the move.

Thats just me. Each to his own, i guess.

 

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

4/03/13 2:03:11 PM#90

When you pre-order, you are buying into a vision of a game that you (the community) has little say in.  The game is already made and will release despite any concerns the community has voiced.  Most importantly, the game will have had the hands of publishers all over, trying to monetize every aspect of the game.  In the end, it really isnt worth it to pre-order.  You take all the risk with absolutely no expectation of return on pre-oredering.  The exception are some of these pre-orders on steam where you get a free game.  The Bioshock infinite preorder gave a free copy of Xcom.  That is a damn good reason to preorder.

A kickstarter project is pretty much the opposite.  The community has a say in the development of the game.  The funding of the kickstarter project relies solely upon the demand for the game being sold.  Furthermore, it cuts out the publishers and thier influence on the game, making it possible to get games made for specific audiences (niche markets) that traditional publishers don't see as a viable investment.  Furthermore, you can see a pledge on Kickstarter as an investment.  The return you make on that investment is potentially quite large.   Without kickstarter we wouldnt be getting the upcoming Wasteland, the new Shadowrun or the new Torment.  That alone is pretty huge IMO.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/03/13 2:27:20 PM#91

Any idiot knows the simplest way to cover yourself when "backing" something on kickstarter is to just pay on your credit card.  If they don't produce the game you just dispute the charge, get your money back, and move on.

 

Seriously...not that hard.

 

**edit**

Verbage, meant to put produce the game rather than fund.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Nightgroper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 77

4/03/13 2:28:22 PM#92

I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.

Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.

He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.

I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.

 

It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.

The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5565

4/03/13 2:28:41 PM#93
Originally posted by Cirin

Any idiot knows the simplest way to cover yourself when "backing" something on kickstarter is to just pay on your credit card.  If they don't fund you just dispute the charge, get your money back, and move on.

 

Seriously...not that hard.

If it doesn't fund, you don't get charged in the first place.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/03/13 2:28:43 PM#94
Originally posted by Maephisto

When you pre-order, you are buying into a vision of a game that you (the community) has little say in. 

No....

You're buying the completed version of the game.  By the time you see what you're pre-ordering the game is basically set and finished (minus bug squashing).

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/03/13 2:32:06 PM#95
Originally posted by Nightgroper

I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.

Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.

He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.

I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.

 

It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.

That's EXACTLY it.

 

Pre-ordering has no meaning any longer, at all.  Unless you want the "bonuses" that they're offering there's no risk of them not having enough for you to buy (which was the main reason pre-ordering began back in the day).

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/03/13 3:20:58 PM#96
Originally posted by Cirin

Pre-ordering has no meaning any longer, at all.  Unless you want the "bonuses" that they're offering there's no risk of them not having enough for you to buy (which was the main reason pre-ordering began back in the day).

Which is why the name has changed several times over the past few years - to keep that pre-publish income rolling in.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

4/03/13 3:29:03 PM#97
Unless I'm paying someone to give me advice on my money, I tend not to care what something thinks about how I spend it.
  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

 
OP  4/03/13 3:29:36 PM#98
Originally posted by Nightgroper

I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.

Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.

He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.

I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.

 

It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.

Yes buying anything is risky but what is more risky? placing a pre order for mere 50 to 60 bucks after watching lots of previews and video footage, participating in beta and testing the game before hand or spending hundered of dollars on mere promises of some guy who has his way with words and want to sell you a bridge to MMO utopia?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Nightgroper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 77

4/03/13 3:55:12 PM#99
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Nightgroper

I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.

Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.

He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.

I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.

 

It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.

Yes buying anything is risky but what is more risky? placing a pre order for mere 50 to 60 bucks after watching lots of previews and video footage, participating in beta and testing the game before hand or spending hundered of dollars on mere promises of some guy who has his way with words and want to sell you a bridge to MMO utopia?

You mean Aliens Colonial Marines? Bam! In your overly pompous face!

The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17611

4/03/13 4:00:10 PM#100
Originally posted by botrytis

As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?

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