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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » CU's Game Engine Fast and Light -Andrew

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39 posts found
  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

4/03/13 1:54:58 PM#21
Originally posted by Foggye

My main concern isn't so much with the character models as it is for the structures.  If you have player made structures.  You take your castle.  Crafters add things to do it.  Banners.  Spikes.  Adjusted ramparts.  Defenses.  They carve out a moat, add roads.  Spikes, traps.. the list goes on.  Then they start adding towers, with the same stuff.  Then expand, and expand again.  It's gonna add up.

I agree.  CSE needs to take a page from the Unreal Engine 3 playbook and force optimization through only rending what's visible on an individual's screen - Which, in my opinion, would include lots of topography changes in terrain to ensure it happens.  

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

4/03/13 1:57:10 PM#22
Originally posted by gylnne
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

From a technical glance, the model used is a low polygon (300-600) from March on Oz.  So obviouslly the game can easily render between 30,000 to 60,000 polygons at any one time without a hitch.  That's an impressive start.  I'm willing to wager that the character models found in Camelot Unchained will be within the 600-1200 poly range and will exhibit incredibly smooth animation (you can see the animator working with the footing in the original video to provide a smooth walk animation).

  It's this 3d modeler/animator's opinion that we'll be absolutely fine regarding smooth graphics.  If you look at March on Oz's art direction, there's a strong prepresence of hand painted textures.. which further reduces the need for additional polygons to provide depth.  

Awesome update.

Plastic, not being a techie guy your input is always nice to see, thank you.:)

+1 I love that Bender dude's input :)

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

4/03/13 2:00:03 PM#23
Originally posted by Tayah
I'm wondering how it will be with spells flying around, and other animations during big battles, along with everything else in the background going on with seiging keeps. Hope they can pull it off.

When designing something like this, CSE will push their poly budget almost to max to ensure that it'll be "hard" to reach that level by most engagements.  That being said, most fights (other than probably relic raids or the first month after release) won't be zomgwtfmassive zerg fights.  

So, you can reduce the poly budget to include spell effects and such.  Spell effects are just 1-polygon planes that have a texture applied.  The easiest thing I can describe it as is a more complex .gif file.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6021

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

4/03/13 2:01:51 PM#24

I am not sure I am getting this.

Simply put: Guy (Andrew) shows a rendering animation, the characters that are rendered multiply and continue to do so. These characters have no outside influence, meaning the characters are not controled by someone else somewhere else.

How does this proof this supports hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously in the same area?

As said not sure I am getting this......

  Arcona

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/04
Posts: 1166

4/03/13 2:04:02 PM#25
Originally posted by Reklaw

I am not sure I am getting this.

Simply put: Guy (Andrew) shows a rendering animation, the characters that are rendered multiply and continue to do so. These characters have no outside influence, meaning the characters are not controled by someone else somewhere else.

How does this proof this supports hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously in the same area?

As said not sure I am getting this......

it shows the engine can display multiple thousands characters on screen.

  jbgunz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/09
Posts: 27

4/03/13 2:06:57 PM#26

Buddy in the video even said its a tradeoff....have a ton of people on screen  but your enviroments are boring and sparse?

 

 

so wouldint you rather have an awsome looking enviroment with say 1000 players on screen...or a dull and sparse envirment with say 5000 on screen?

  meddyck

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1124

4/03/13 2:20:40 PM#27

There's no way the actual game could be fun with 10,000 players in an area. Think about the AE damage spam from your typical 100 man zerg in DAOC, WAR, or GW 2. Now multiply that by 100. It'd be a stupidly boring explosion of instant death. The zones would be so populated you would never find a quiet area to have some small action. I want my characters to make a name for themselves not be 1 out of 10,000 anonymous zerglings.

It's great that they are making other games like SWTOR that can't even handle 16 player warzones well look bad. But I hope they will make CU look a lot better than an Ipad game like March on Oz. If the engine can smoothly handle 1,000 players at a time on 3-5 year old hardware (as of 2015) at release, that would be perfect. Add polygons. Improve the textures and lighting and otherwise beef up the graphics. WOW, LoL, or TF 2 graphics isn't a high enough bar to clear.

Bring on the next video featuring actual CU models to put my mind at ease please!

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  mmoski

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/08
Posts: 263

4/03/13 2:22:19 PM#28

This is really cool, reminds me of the 15000 models I had rendering in my dx10 engine (CPU based), not even touched cool things you can do with the GPU using geo or compute with multiple instances.

While this has showcased how they are working and developing the technology, there's a long way to go, I don't think we will see more than 500 models on screen though, unless they have some amazing custom server technology.

Keep up these videos CU, they are great ! And while many people can't see it, or don't understand the technology,  It's the difference between night and day to any developer/programmer between eye candy tech demo's and actual tech demo's.

  Zarthux

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/06
Posts: 28

4/03/13 2:26:26 PM#29
Its a demo showcasing what can be done in a little amount of time that follows the foundation principles of more people on the screen is better than a 100 people on the screen lagging. The game will look nice. Dont freak out from one video.

Past: WoW, WAR, SWTOR, and too many others
Future: Camelot Unchained

  Devilmario

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/11/13
Posts: 18

4/03/13 2:28:14 PM#30
Makes EA/Bioware and SWTOR look even worse considering they could only fit 5-8 characters at a time in major cities.
  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

4/03/13 2:29:11 PM#31

Smoke and mirrors?

 

I want to creat a 60 Watt lightbulb that will be as bright as the sun, whose with me?

 

Quantity is not epic.  It's Quality that makes me coming back.  The more I hear about this game the more I'm amazed people believe it's possible in an MMO where everyone wants uniqueness, with playstyle and gear.

 

I guess everyone will have a very limited character model and allowable attire. 200vs 200 is bad enough, don't make it more.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

4/03/13 2:34:09 PM#32

I have been part of other games RVR where other players were invisible when there were too many on screen or the game just became unplayable as framerates dropped with more players and explosions going on. I'm no tech guy, but what this demo showed is that he was able to render 10k characters on his screen with no obvious frame rate dropping. In an RVR game where you have tons of guys fighting against each other this demonstration is pretty important to the game's long term success.

 

That doesn't mean they will have 10k guys fighting it out in one space per se, it just means with their simplest of models in a stripped down environment they could handle that many with this game engine. As you begin adding fancier models and terrain etc, this number will drop for sure but we have a good base here to me. At least this is how I understand it, hope this helps any of the people with questions about what we saw in that recent video.

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

4/03/13 2:56:47 PM#33
I'll take smooth performance over graphics any day.
  Vanshoodie

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 35

4/03/13 2:57:17 PM#34
There is no reason to get in a panic. Heck it seems most of use take this video as something to get excited over. It is just a demo showing what is possible. Of course there is no need to have 10k fighting over a keep at once.  The largest battles may only be a few hundred at a time. That's saying a lot really considering that it will be an open world enviroment and people will be split up into different areas seiging and defending.  The fact that he has a stripped demo with 10k models on it is amazing. It can only get better from there.
  comicguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/07/09
Posts: 115

4/03/13 3:25:13 PM#35
nice! As long as they don't use WAR's engine... NO FORT!!
  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6021

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

4/03/13 3:40:14 PM#36
Originally posted by Arcona
Originally posted by Reklaw

I am not sure I am getting this.

Simply put: Guy (Andrew) shows a rendering animation, the characters that are rendered multiply and continue to do so. These characters have no outside influence, meaning the characters are not controled by someone else somewhere else.

How does this proof this supports hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously in the same area?

As said not sure I am getting this......

it shows the engine can display multiple thousands characters on screen.

So much I figured.

But does what he shows really equal of having actuall thousands of players all with different gear/skills/ability's/looks in one area?

Will this be a cloud game where only the controls are mine and everything is rendered on their servers?

The demo shows a fully controlled closed environment, there is no outside source controling those characters. Doesn't that make a hugh difference?

In no way is this meant wrong, I just like to perhaps beter understand how this transelate's it into having those thousands of different players all at the same place.

 

  Miblet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 327

4/03/13 4:15:23 PM#37

I was impressed.

I would imagine many would happily sacrifice graphics for the chance to have massive epic battles without it degenerating into a slide show.  After all what good are the shiniest graphics if during a battle you drop to 5fps and gameplay becomes button mash and hope?

 

Of course the number of models will drop as the project continues but they should have plenty of overhead if they don't get too ambitious.  Something to def keep an eye on.

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

4/03/13 4:18:11 PM#38

I can't speak to the technical aspects, but the fact that they place enough of a priority on smooth, efficient gameplay with a large number of players involved this early in the whole process is reassuring to me.

They are not looking to make a game where you routinely have 1500 players on your screen at once.  However, I would guess they are looking to make a game where you and your 35 guildies are defending a keep from 30 enemies of one realm, and 45 enemies from the other realm run up - and the graphics being rendered by your non-overclocked, decent but not state-of-the-art PC don't bat an eyelash.

 

This will allow all 110 players to see that dragon swooping down on them at the same moment. :D

 

(Before anyone points out that graphics don't have eyelashes, please remember that I said right up front that I was not technical, hehe.)

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

4/03/13 4:43:11 PM#39


Originally posted by meddyck
There's no way the actual game could be fun with 10,000 players in an area. Think about the AE damage spam from your typical 100 man zerg in DAOC, WAR, or GW 2. Now multiply that by 100. It'd be a stupidly boring explosion of instant death. The zones would be so populated you would never find a quiet area to have some small action. I want my characters to make a name for themselves not be 1 out of 10,000 anonymous zerglings.

It's great that they are making other games like SWTOR that can't even handle 16 player warzones well look bad. But I hope they will make CU look a lot better than an Ipad game like March on Oz. If the engine can smoothly handle 1,000 players at a time on 3-5 year old hardware (as of 2015) at release, that would be perfect. Add polygons. Improve the textures and lighting and otherwise beef up the graphics. WOW, LoL, or TF 2 graphics isn't a high enough bar to clear.

Bring on the next video featuring actual CU models to put my mind at ease please!



I doubt we would see more than 1000 people per map / continent, depending on its size. and that's alot of players and action going down on one map. a typical high pop server should see 4000 players online at any given time.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

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