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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Does a crafter class really make sense?

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112 posts found
  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2118

joie de vivre

4/03/13 9:44:48 AM#21

I'm extremely excited for the builder concept. Having players on the battlefield that are defenseless yet building us structures will add a lot to gameplay. I picture it being much like Warcraft 1, my little miner out on his own, gathering my ore, when a gang approaches so I send out my guards to fight them off and protect my miner. Ah memories.

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  Muke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1639

4/03/13 9:46:19 AM#22


Originally posted by meddyck
I'm not sure it does.

This class will play an important role in various siege related things according to Mark. But as anybody who played DAOC, WAR, etc. will tell you, not all of your time in RvR is spent sieging. If you have a crafter in your group in an open field battle, you will be at a big disadvantage against an enemy group full of the other classes.

I suppose it is possible crafters will also get weak combat abilities. But if you are going to do that, why not just make crafting like it is in other games including DAOC: something you can train in addition to your regular class rather than a class in itself? Then you could be a caster/crafter, tank/crafter, healer/crafter, etc.

I'm just not seeing the advantage or need for crafting to be a class by itself.


When I started in SWG all I wanted was to be a trader and a crafter....I had little to no combat skills on that character and I had a blast in that game.
Some people don't have the need to go out and do kill missions the whole time.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  gylnne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/07
Posts: 325

4/03/13 9:46:35 AM#23

I have been waiting for a game that let's me make a pure crafter for ages that actually does not have to compete with a mob drop to make sales.

A 100% player drive economy makes the game all the more exciting.

  gylnne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/07
Posts: 325

4/03/13 9:49:09 AM#24
Originally posted by DMKano
Bringing a class that can't compete in a competitive RvR game makes no sense.

 

Mark has said crafters will be very important in rvr since they will need to be protected as they build forts, do repairs, etc. on the battlefield.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3217

4/03/13 9:49:51 AM#25
I would definitely play this class.  I wouldn't even enter the battlefield probably either.  I just love having my guildmates bring me materials and I craft them whatever that need/want.  There's just something about knowing my guildmates are marching into battle using things I made to save thier lives and/or kill our enemies :D
  JaironKalach

Novice Member

Joined: 4/03/13
Posts: 13

4/03/13 9:52:08 AM#26
Originally posted by belatucadros

I have the same concerns.

I'm excited by the idea, but I agree - I don't see us running a crafter in our group, unless there are 10 slots. Maybe not even then.

To me it'll be an "alt", someone we bring out to buff up a keep or outpost as needed. It'd almost be worth a "buffbot" account that has a maxed out crafter I can drag from siege to siege, while still PVPing.

 

We'll have to see more of what they are planning

Here's the cool thing about what he's defining. You won't need an alt or a "buffbot." Because I'll be around. Sure, I won't be in your group out on the front lines. I'll be just a step behind you, building things up so that when you have to fall back, you have a safe place to fall back to. And, the really cool thing is, I'll be being rewarded for provided this to you.  Not in the same way that you are rewarded for those epic fights, but in a way that maeks it even easier for me to support you as the time comes. :-)

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

4/03/13 10:48:39 AM#27
I'm not sure if it'll work or not. If they're pretty much worthless in a fight I have my doubts, but we'll see.
  Karraptathid

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 80

4/03/13 11:02:08 AM#28

Crafter can be a value added group member, just look at WAR's Engineers.  I don't see a reason why a crafter that is at home in the battlefield (seige crafter or a builder) can't be successful in killing the enemy as a group member as long as CSE folks balance it all out properly.

Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/03/13 11:05:37 AM#29

Why would they need to be competitive in open RvR? If they want to craft, harvest material, or defend/attack a keep, then the players take their crafter. If they want to roam and have non keep fight then they bring another class.

 

Considering than the crafters will need to go out in contested areas to get the higher crafting tool/ressources, then it won't be you that'll be dragging around a crafter, but the crafter that'll drag you around to get what he wants.

 

Also, having a defenseless class will create targets for the enemy to attack and you to defend, and so will increase the number and type of different fights. Once you'll have to protect your crafters, the next time you'll be the one attacking, another fight it'll be pure fighters only, add to that keep take and defense, there are already 6 different situations you can get in. It may even increase with the new ideas we will see with this game. Look, here is another situation : you start attacking some of your enemies, then the third realm get into the fight, either giving you an edge over your first target or putting you in a pinch as you have to defend both side.

  KappenWiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/07
Posts: 163

4/03/13 11:10:50 AM#30

I envisioned crafters not so much being in the RvR groups as being solo players or their own small groups running around behind the lines or off in the distance trying to accomplish things. They might have a fighter or two and healer dedicated to them, but the crafters wouldn't take slots in the 'roaming'-type groups.

That's for the keep, town, frontier builders. The ones who build the fundamental and/or essential pieces to expansion and growth, like repairing doors and walls, planning keeps and towns, setting up shops to supply goods, etc. This is, of course, all guesswork right now...but that's one aspect of crafting and how I imagined it, in part. These would be the highest leveled, dedicated "expansion" crafters, pushing out the best, most-reliable goods for players and towns/fortifications to build. These would be pretty weak fighters/healers, etc.

Now, there could also be hybrid crafter/fighter slots. We always talk about healer/dps, tank/dps, etc, but why not crafter/healer, or crafter/dps, like an engineer-type class who would be able to not only damage, set traps, funnels, destroy bridges, fight in general, but also repair better/faster than the non crafters or 1st level crafters but not as well as the highest crafters? Or the crafter/healer could be the only class that creates battlefield heal fonts based on its knowledge of flora or has special aoe's or triggers special buffs or regeneration depending on their particular skill set and where the group is in the world.

Gank groups might not want them, but perhaps another type of group would grow up around them.

So, there is a lot of possibility, but it DOES come with some pitfalls. If crafting is essential to success in the frontier areas, every realm is going to need a good amount of them. It could be a bigger cliff than the Healer or Speed Class necessity in DAoC. Pugs without them were free RPS. If a realm lacks a good quantity of builders, it could really hamper the entire game for them.

 

  MMOWarrior

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/09
Posts: 33

4/03/13 11:37:19 AM#31

 

Meddyck!  I remember you over on IGN and Alb/Percival!

 

anyway.. I'm curious to see how this plays out.. I loved Crafting/Housing and running Rams and Trebs, heck I had Lifter 3!.. combine all that into a Crafting class and it could be a blast.. I know I'll be trying it..

  Abisbowa

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/06
Posts: 90

4/03/13 11:58:47 AM#32

I think it would be funny to organize an all crafter night or something...

 

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

4/03/13 12:07:37 PM#33

When I think of a crafter class I always think of EvE. EvE has sooo many different flavors of crafting. People that mine, haul, convert minerals to metal and finally building all manner of items.

All of the crafting ships had very little defenses but there were some ships that you could outfit with escape tools so you wouldn't be a an easy kill all the time. Hopefully in Cu they add the ability to get some of these defense abilities. Things like Purge CC, Speed Burst, SpeedWarp (structure that snares all around it). As a side note a lot of the abilities I mentioned are in DaoC on the Armor. For example Winged Helmet in DaoC has a Speed Burst ability attached to it. Imagine in DaoC if you didn't really have to worry about offensive stats as much and just got gear based upon the abilities and proc/reactives on it. 

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

4/03/13 12:28:02 PM#34
Originally posted by meddyck

I'm not sure it does.

This class will play an important role in various siege related things according to Mark. But as anybody who played DAOC, WAR, etc. will tell you, not all of your time in RvR is spent sieging. If you have a crafter in your group in an open field battle, you will be at a big disadvantage against an enemy group full of the other classes.

I suppose it is possible crafters will also get weak combat abilities. But if you are going to do that, why not just make crafting like it is in other games including DAOC: something you can train in addition to your regular class rather than a class in itself? Then you could be a caster/crafter, tank/crafter, healer/crafter, etc.

I'm just not seeing the advantage or need for crafting to be a class by itself.

A couple thoughts:

-I think you might be focusing a bit too much on how DAoC worked.  I know MJ wants to recreate the "magic" that was DAoC, but I doubt he wants to recreate the 8-man/Stealth War/Zerg paradigm that DAoC became.  By the end, no one even cared about taking keeps or relics... it was all about finding another group to fight.   (Recall the server where the Mids actually RETURNED relics just to get some enemies out into the field!)

I think he wants to create a completely new type of RvR and his vision includes the crafter class as an important part.  I think he wants to make sieges, keep takes and building construction a central theme in RvR... at least that's what I get from what I've read and heard from MJ.

-Who knows what the "Crafter" will be capable of doing?  If he can lay down a bad ass AoE trap in a fight, I think that would probably be a good group class.  Also, I believe the class might be capable of handling some combat, as well.

 

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1134

 
OP  4/03/13 1:01:44 PM#35
Originally posted by Tumblebutz

-I think you might be focusing a bit too much on how DAoC worked.  I know MJ wants to recreate the "magic" that was DAoC, but I doubt he wants to recreate the 8-man/Stealth War/Zerg paradigm that DAoC became.  By the end, no one even cared about taking keeps or relics... it was all about finding another group to fight.   (Recall the server where the Mids actually RETURNED relics just to get some enemies out into the field!)

8 mans or stealthers aren't the only groups in an RvR game. Countless times in DAOC my guild would make a guild group or pick up group and go roam around the frontiers. If there wasn't much open field action, then we would grab some rams and open up a tower or keep and either take it or farm enemies who came to defend.

Suppose in CU only crafters can build rams or siege towers. Then that means we are forced to take a crafter in our group (or along side us with his bard bot for speed) and we have one less caster, healer, tank, archer, etc. This leaves us vulnerable to other open field groups who do not have a crafter and makes us less capable of successfully taking or farming the structure we attack.

Now it could be that other classes will be able to deploy rams and towers and/or that the crafter class will also be able to build turrets like an engineer in WAR, GW 2, etc. In either of those cases, there is not much problem. But if not, then I'd rather see crafting work in the more traditional manner as an additional thing any class can train.

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  mmoski

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/08
Posts: 269

4/03/13 1:12:27 PM#36

While I think the crafter class is a excellent, my belief (and this is in general to every crafter system I have seen) is that we haven't yet seen a true crafting system and from what MJ has said, they will have more of an "engineer" system, now before you go all WHAT on me!

A proper crafting system allows users to create content, I'm yet to see  any developer do this correctly, what do I mean by correctly ?

A crafting system should provide the tools to allow users to create objects in context to the game environment, it requires a cut down modelling tool or system that allows users to create in game items from resources, be it hammering a ingot to a shape or pulling sliders on existing parts (crafting skill and user skill should be the key to quality of items), this can be based on pure design and creation or distinct variance control over objects from scale/shape/texture/skins/decals/makers markings etc...

In the case of CU I think mark knows what he's doing, the "crafter class" will be a backbone to each faction, and will provide the items required on the battle field in a support and supply role, but beyond that I don't think the crafting side of the class will have much mileage, once their are 1000+ crafters.

  Lawtoween

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/13
Posts: 104

4/03/13 1:28:06 PM#37

Here's another bit of the document i've been working up that describes how I hope crafters are incorporated into CU:

In the system I would like to see the way classes would be incorporated is that your class would determine which skill lines you may select, how far you may progress in each skill line, and how much each skill in a given skill line would cost (in terms of class points).  I envision leveling in a class provides some number of class points per class level.  Both of these concepts would need to be balanced after being fully fleshed out, but for the purpose of this description assume that it will be cheaper for a melee based class to buy skills in hand-to-hand combat than any other class that has access to those skills, and that they would be unrestricted in the depth into that line to train (it’s primary to their class).  On the other hand, any non-crafting class would be restricted from advancing beyond the journeyman level skills in a crafting skill line, and it might cost them twice (or whatever multiplier) as many class points to train each skill as it would for a crafting class in the level(s) in which they can train.  In my description I will assume there is only one crafting/building class per realm (at least at launch) and the difference between the two will only be determined by the choice of skill lines the player selects for that character. Furthermore, I assume that some, if not nearly all, skill lines are open to any class at the journeyman level, thus a crafter would have access to the same journeyman level melee skills as a melee class, but at a higher cost, just as the melee class would have access to the journeyman level crafting skills (some things I have read make this assumption a bit dubious). 

Skills would be clustered into groups called skill lines.  Each skill line would have various specific skills in one of the three tiers: journeyman, master, artisan.  Each line would be primary, secondary, or tertiary for a given class, with some lines not available at all.  Primary skill lines would be open at the artisan level and have the least cost at the journeyman and master levels.  Secondary lines would be open to the master level and be more expensive than primary skills.  Tertiary lines would be any line available that is not primary or secondary, would only be open to the journeyman level, and would be more expensive to train than secondary skills in the journeyman level.  Personally, I would not have a single track which must be purchased one-by-one to get to a specific skill (as in WAR’s mastery skills).  Instead, I would require a minimum number of journeyman skills to be trained in a line before the character can train any master skills.  The master skills may have specific prerequisites in the journeyman level, but not all journeyman skills would have to be trained to learn the first master skill.  Similarly, specific artisan skills could have prerequisites in the master level, but only some minimum number of master skills would have to be learned (not all, unless they were pre-requisites) before the first artisan skill would be available.  Characters would use class points gained as they level their class to train each skill.  Master level skills would cost more class points than journeyman, and artisan skills would cost more than master skills.  I will not attempt to generate a full list of skills, or even skill lines, as that is beyond the scope of this thread.  I provide the list below as a way of illustrating how I use the terms journeyman, master and artisan as mentioned in Mark Jacobs’ founding principle on crafting.  Several skills have been intentionally placed in the journeyman level such that any class would have access to them.

Artisan skills would have the option of adding class points after initially buying them.  Doing so would have the effect of increasing the likelihood of success (and/or critical success) by some amount.  This could be done a number of times determined by balance testing (since one character might decide to put all their class points into a specific skill to ensure a critical success on every use).

As far as class levels are concerned, I would have no hard level cap in the game, but the only benefit of levels above a certain point (say maybe level 40 or 50) would be increased class points.  Mind you, I would make every level require between 150% and 200% of the experience points needed to reach the previous level, so at some point one more level might take thousands of hours of game play to achieve.  But, imagine the bragging rights of being the highest level character on your server!  The thing with this is that since you receive the same benefit for each level gained beyond the soft cap (in terms of class points) it becomes a balancing factor across both realms and between casual and hard-core players.  Since a level 50 character would not be significantly weaker than a level 55, but the 55 would be able to claim superiority, and have some actual benefit for all the time spent playing.

The first builders/crafters skill line that I propose involves animal husbandry (grants pets).  The journeyman level skills would allow the raising of livestock (for food or hides) and the most basic pack animal.  The line might also include riding skill at this level, if that is not a universal thing.  The master level would include larger pack animals, defensive combat pets, and first level speed mounts.  The artisan level would hold the second speed mounts, offensive combat pets, and the largest pack animals.  This line would have to be coupled (possibly with another player) with another line that is used to construct carts and wagons if those were to be implemented (I expect vehicles to be a stretch goal at best).

The second skill line on my wish list would be siege weapon use/construction.  Here the journeyman level skills would include the operation of siege weapons and possibly the construction of projectiles for ranged siege engines.  The master level would include assembly and disassembly (why shouldn’t siege engines be reusable? although disassembly might be artisan level) of siege engines, construction of the parts that make the basic level of engines (think rams, ballistae, boiling oil cauldrons, etc.), and sapping (wall undermining).  The artisan level would be where you get construction of the most powerful engines (trebuchets, AoE catapults, iron capped rams with protective coverings, siege towers, etc.), tunneling for going under walls (not collapsing them), and the construction of specialized projectiles (Greek fire, exploding barrels, cable laying ballista bolts for climbing over walls, etc.).

The third skill line that would be primary (meaning no other class can train the artisan (and possibly master) skills) to crafters/builders would be the speed buff skill line.  I already included ridable pets in the animal husbandry line which would offer speed one and speed two which the crafter could sell to other players.  Those would be enhanced by the speed buff provided by roads (which would have an effect dependent on the level of the road from one to three) offering a maximum speed level of five.  I would put speed one as a buff in the journeyman level, speed two as the master skill, and speed three to five (or six, seven, whatever) as artisan skills.

The final skill line I will include for crafters and builders is the one that allows a character to use or make snares and traps.  At the journeyman level would be the placement of crafted snares, detection of snares/traps, and a skill to free oneself (and others) from snares (which would have a cast time, so as not to totally negate the snare).  Master level skills would include crafting of pre-set snares/traps, use of on-the-fly snares (placed while moving, or possibly ranged in nature), placing of traps (traps cause damage, whereas snares affect movement), and disarming of snares (prior to being set-off).  Artisan skills would include placement of AoE snares/traps, use of on-the-fly traps, disarming traps, and construction of deadly traps.  Snares and traps, when placed successfully, would be invisible to enemy players and last either for very long durations, or permanently until sprung or disarmed.  They could be placed on the ground or on walls (and may have an effect specific to siege equipment).  Friendly players would see a red polygon around the area snared/trapped, but would not be immune to the effect of the snare/trap.  Therefore, placement of these items should be done with care.  When a player successfully disarms a snare or trap, they would receive the item in their inventory to use (assuming they have that ability) or trade. 

I suggest the above skill lines for crafters/builders so that they will provide some other utility in RvR beyond that provided before and after combat through construction and crafting.  Keep in mind that no one character would ever be able to train every skill available to their class.  If they chose to concentrate on the crafting line, they might forego any RvR related skill to save class points to train another armor type (metal, hide, or cloth) rather than having the ability to make snares and traps, siege equipment, or combat pets.

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5814

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

4/03/13 1:31:11 PM#38

i dont see how non-combatant classes can fit in a game where all you will be doing is pvp pvp pvp pvp.

Unless the game doesnt fully focus on pvp like we have been told so many times.

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

4/03/13 1:54:30 PM#39

I personally feel that the 'crafter' class will be much like the worker in the Civilization series; the class unit literally makes an empire thrive through its road systems, fortifications, and commerce buildings.  In ancient or modern warfare, soldiers have a basic understand of how to reinforce a keep door and provide additional support to a wall; however, they do not possess the true ability to full rebuild, repair, or remodel existing architecture because they lack the experience and education.

The same goes for the blacksmith soldier - in all likelihood, this soldier would either excel at blacksmithing or at being a soldier, but not at both - it's far more probable that the individual would specialize into something.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

4/03/13 2:37:30 PM#40
I think having a dedicated crafter class allows for more gameplay dynamics for sure. Having something real to protect on the battlefield (crafters) could add a whole different feel to RvR, and the possibilities they bring to seige warfare wouldn't be as dynamic and meaningful if every crafter was also a fighter. Imo.

It will also help with subs. Lots of people not as into direct PvP might play just because of this class. While I know CSE isn't aiming at a huge player base, they don't want it TOO small.

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