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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Elder Scrolls Online: Bad as I Want to Be

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51 posts found
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/02/13 3:51:58 PM#21

"we’ve known that the game won’t be a “sandbox”, but rather a theme park with large amounts of character building freedom. This is, quite honestly, right on par with the other Elder Scrolls games.":

Enough already, if you like ducks, say you like ducks and stop calling ducks something else. The only people that say TES games are themepark games are those being PAID to do so and those willing to go to any length to get a DaoC remake. No amount of lies is going to change the minds of those that either never played DaoC, never liked DaoC and already know that an MMO can be made like a TES game and dont want just another freaking themepark based MMO...sure not going to change the minds of the people flooding every single TES site about how bad a move it was to make a TES game with closed factions, closed races and PvP behind an invisible wall while trying to make a game where the entire world is at war with each other...

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  ianash

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 1

Han shot first

4/02/13 3:52:36 PM#22
Originally posted by Mardukk
This is one of the reasons I loved EQ1 so much.  I had the ability to kill my own town guards but I would pay the consequences with a large faction hit and eventually I wouldn't be allowed back in town.  I would be forced to go to the sewers etc...  This little bit of freedom is something that has been all but abandoned in recent MMO's.  Hopefully TESO will allow some form of freedom along these lines.  

These were the "good old days", glad someone else recalls them as fondly as I do. We can only hope to see a game as (relatively) ambitious as those first pioneers were. If EQ or UO were redone using today's technology, they would be mammoth blockbusters. ESO has the pedigree and more original lore than any other franchise. My fingers and toes are crossed. :)

  Buckarama

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/03
Posts: 49

4/02/13 4:07:27 PM#23
I am still playing SKyrim, ike 600 plus hours and counting. I know, I need to get a life. This should be cool. Looking forward to it.
  Fdzzaigl

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 1845

4/02/13 4:18:03 PM#24

I think the cool thing about storytelling in many TES games is that the story "emerged" from the gameplay: you sort of stumbled upon things while you were playing the game and took it from there, apart from the main quest that is.

I definitely hope they'll succeed in bringing that into the MMO.

Although I also find decisionmaking to be important, I don't find that the Elder Scrolls series have ever particularly excelled at delivering stories that took you deep into the alignment or character of the protagonist. It's always been "OK" to dick around and do no matter what and still end up being the champion who saves everything.  That's not a bad thing though, it's part of the series.

  acidblood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 225

4/02/13 4:45:32 PM#25
Dialog choices, that's what you call being bad... man one of the best bits of ES is being able to do things outside of pre-defined 'choice'. See some guy wondering down the road with a nice looking hat, wait till your alone and stick a dagger in his back... sure he might have been some quest NPC, but you've got a nice hat so who cares. Sorry, but not matter how many layers of ES inspired paint they tip onto this thing it's just never going to feel like a an ES game to me.
  eric_w66

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 1004

4/02/13 5:02:06 PM#26

The problem with these 'gray area' choices is that game developers tend to OVER DO it. I'm almost never faced with a conundrum that leaves me scratching my head wondering what I should do in reality. But in the game, my character is forced all the time to make questionable calls...

 

Worst offender for this was the RPG for the Legend of the 5 Rings. Every module would present players with 'do the honorable thing' or 'do the right thing'. They were never the same thing, and this frustrated my players to no extent. They WANTED to be heroes, but the game's modules never let them. There never was (when I played at the beginning at least) a nice, relaxing 'Go slay that demon that is terrorizing the people, and be rewarded by the lord for your bravery!'

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6476

4/02/13 5:27:48 PM#27

Made my wicked necro in GW2, and the first thing I see past creation is "help me" and my wicked necro says "OK fair lady!" It was almost gg at that point.

 

On the other hand, Age of Wushu has the best norailty system I've seen. The thing is, AoW is not a quest centric game. You get good and evil based on you interactions with..(wait for it..) PEOPLE. 

 

Morality in our standard western quest based mmos may never work. Swtor may be as good as you get.

  karat76

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/06
Posts: 998

Greatest threat to society is letting casualties of puberty reproduce.

4/02/13 5:52:27 PM#28
Not sure how total freedom would work in a game. I never bought the whole community will police itself as in all my years on mmos I have never saw it work. Just remember even a sandbox needs walls to hold the sand in.
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6476

4/02/13 6:01:54 PM#29
Originally posted by karat76
Not sure how total freedom would work in a game. I never bought the whole community will police itself as in all my years on mmos I have never saw it work. Just remember even a sandbox needs walls to hold the sand in.
 

Me either until AoW it works with out question. It takes original thought though. That's something our western dev have been lacking. 

 

I saw a post this post the other day talking about how all engins do basic task. The trouble is making the engin do what you want. It made me think that possibly our programmers just aren't up to snuff.

 

I kinda have a feel for what I think ESO will be. A deep, virtual world may not be there. I think it's gonna all come down to the combat and itemization.

  Sandonas

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/11
Posts: 5

4/02/13 6:08:31 PM#30
First of all u guys keep forgetting a game called "fable" where you got to choose to be good bad or neutral so just saying and you guys are all morons cause you be bad in one town and be good in another part for skyrim and for oblivion if you wanted to be bad you just put a mask on and be a bad as you wanted to be and morrowind was just insane and the guards were ridicously hard to kill probably need to go bad to the aspect which I really played Oblivion just to find out the NPCS are weaker and easier and dumber and then Skyrim got the biggest "nerf" of them all except when it came to dragons and what I didn't like about Skyrim is in Oblivion there were skill increased items lying just all the place the loot was better and just a funner in all aspects and that's all i got to say about this debacle.
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 14331

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/02/13 6:19:23 PM#31
Originally posted by jtcgs

"we’ve known that the game won’t be a “sandbox”, but rather a theme park with large amounts of character building freedom. This is, quite honestly, right on par with the other Elder Scrolls games.":

Enough already, if you like ducks, say you like ducks and stop calling ducks something else. The only people that say TES games are themepark games are those being PAID to do so and those willing to go to any length to get a DaoC remake. No amount of lies is going to change the minds of those that either never played DaoC, never liked DaoC and already know that an MMO can be made like a TES game and dont want just another freaking themepark based MMO...sure not going to change the minds of the people flooding every single TES site about how bad a move it was to make a TES game with closed factions, closed races and PvP behind an invisible wall while trying to make a game where the entire world is at war with each other...

I guess if you consider a sandbox a game that offers free roaming, TES would be a sandbox  (some describe/categorize GTA in such a way); however, if you feel a true sandbox involves more, you may feel differently. I fall into the latter of the two, I couldn't care less about DAOC, I also wish I was being paid to say this.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/02/13 6:51:37 PM#32
Originally posted by Distopia

I guess if you consider a sandbox a game that offers free roaming, TES would be a sandbox  (some describe/categorize GTA in such a way); however, if you feel a true sandbox involves more, you may feel differently. I fall into the latter of the two, I couldn't care less about DAOC, I also wish I was being paid to say this.

 There is more to TES sandbox than just roaming. You can play the character as you like, there is no race/faction lock, you can be bad or good, you can go in and just kill everyone in town, kill the quest giver. Go where you want, when you want. You can raise ALL CRAFTING skils to max, make anything in the game. Its almost 100% sandbox.

Its simple, the base game design is sandbox. Go anywhere, do anything with any type of character you want, the way you want with any race or faction, even switch and betray them.

TESO is themepark in its base design with the developers telling you what faction/race you can play, how you are going to play it and the way you are going to play it as they hold your hand every step of the way down the funnel to PvP neverland where there is ever more hand holding. There is no freedom, the exact opposite of TES.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  jbombard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 449

4/02/13 8:00:48 PM#33

It seems like each individual person has a different "if it doesn't have x then it isn't TES".

 

I agree that you have always had quite a bit of freedom in how you tackle the story.  However I have never considered TES to really be exceptional when it comes to providing a gray story.  Mostly the story is the one you decide it is in your head.(reasons for your actions etc...)  So for me TES has been about freedom, but never really about morally tough choices in the context of the story presented through the game.  

 

Most games give you the option to not take on quests you don't agree with, however people want to see the content so generally it is left up to the player as to finding a reason as to why perhaps their character would do it.  Or not do it, if that is the case.  I can remember plenty of instances of quests where I would have no problem of doing the quest in the context of my imagined character but, not for any of the reasons provided by dialog choices.

 

The one thing TES games have allowed you to do is kill anybody, even if you can kill anybody in TESO I doubt they will stay dead as it is an MMO and other people need to interact with the NPCs.  I suppose they could use phasing but it really isn't that big of a deal to me as one option is just as immersion breaking as the other.(players suddenly disappering or talking to  NPCs that are not there is just as bad or worse than not being able to kill every NPC IMHO.)

 

 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 14331

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/02/13 11:51:41 PM#34
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Distopia

I guess if you consider a sandbox a game that offers free roaming, TES would be a sandbox  (some describe/categorize GTA in such a way); however, if you feel a true sandbox involves more, you may feel differently. I fall into the latter of the two, I couldn't care less about DAOC, I also wish I was being paid to say this.

 There is more to TES sandbox than just roaming. You can play the character as you like, there is no race/faction lock, you can be bad or good, you can go in and just kill everyone in town, kill the quest giver. Go where you want, when you want. You can raise ALL CRAFTING skils to max, make anything in the game. Its almost 100% sandbox.

Its simple, the base game design is sandbox. Go anywhere, do anything with any type of character you want, the way you want with any race or faction, even switch and betray them.

TESO is themepark in its base design with the developers telling you what faction/race you can play, how you are going to play it and the way you are going to play it as they hold your hand every step of the way down the funnel to PvP neverland where there is ever more hand holding. There is no freedom, the exact opposite of TES.

It's in how you look at it, as an example TSW has an open skill system, but that doesn't make the game sandbox focused IMO.

Elder scrolls in the past used a similar method to what TESO is doing with it's class suggestion system, rather than force you down a linear class path you are able to make any combination of skills available. Skill is based on loadout very similar to TES, it could be argued its in a generic way, but it's there. That doesn't make it a sandbox  in my eyes though.

I look at what the core of a game is to decide such a descriptor, as there are many systems that come together to form a sandbox game and the gameplay that term describes; otherwise it's simply role-playing in my eyes, as you have no real control other than arbitrary exceptions (killing someone or stealing something). Look at housing for instance it's incredibly static, even the so called building offered in Hearth Fire. <----A mod for FalloutNV did far more to make that game a sandbox, RTS ( real time settler) Combined with a few other mods that gave you jobs to do and things to interact with (TV's Radios etc...)...--.> .

In the end this is how I look at it , many games have elements of sandboxes, but at their core they're still story/lore content based, not unlike Themeparks, they simply have a lot in common. Story/quest based, with tact on things like exploration (open worldish) where your main options of alternate content are killing and collecting. Sandbox focused games allow you to manipulate a world through numerous outlets, you don't need to role-play in the sense that it's all there simulating life and control over it. A good example where TEs fails in that is guilds, they really have no use/impact when the questline is over.

 

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/02/13 11:55:32 PM#35
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by karat76
Not sure how total freedom would work in a game. I never bought the whole community will police itself as in all my years on mmos I have never saw it work. Just remember even a sandbox needs walls to hold the sand in.
 

Me either until AoW it works with out question. It takes original thought though. That's something our western dev have been lacking. 

 

I saw a post this post the other day talking about how all engins do basic task. The trouble is making the engin do what you want. It made me think that possibly our programmers just aren't up to snuff.

 

I kinda have a feel for what I think ESO will be. A deep, virtual world may not be there. I think it's gonna all come down to the combat and itemization.

It's hilarious how this racism is easily tolerated, and pitiful.

 

No game will ever, EVER, be able to pull this off completely.  Why?  Because most people have severe sociological problems that they choose to act out through their characters in games.  This is also why most online games the community is so bad, invariably you have to deal with these ingrates and waste your time either avoiding them or helping them.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  jbombard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 449

4/03/13 2:32:08 AM#36
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by karat76
Not sure how total freedom would work in a game. I never bought the whole community will police itself as in all my years on mmos I have never saw it work. Just remember even a sandbox needs walls to hold the sand in.
 

Me either until AoW it works with out question. It takes original thought though. That's something our western dev have been lacking. 

 

I saw a post this post the other day talking about how all engins do basic task. The trouble is making the engin do what you want. It made me think that possibly our programmers just aren't up to snuff.

 

I kinda have a feel for what I think ESO will be. A deep, virtual world may not be there. I think it's gonna all come down to the combat and itemization.

It's hilarious how this racism is easily tolerated, and pitiful.

 

No game will ever, EVER, be able to pull this off completely.  Why?  Because most people have severe sociological problems that they choose to act out through their characters in games.  This is also why most online games the community is so bad, invariably you have to deal with these ingrates and waste your time either avoiding them or helping them.

 

Really, it is a tough problem.  It has nothing to do with the engine though, it has to do with creating systems and environments that encourage the kind of behavior we want in the community.  It isn't that it isn't technological possible, it is more that developers don't know how to design those environments.  Making swinging a hammer feel weighty enough to make combat feel real and fun is the kind of problem they are used to.  What you need is people with degrees in psychology and understand how people interact with society(environments) and can transfer that and understand the difference between real world communities and online communities.   It isn't a very common skill set.  I just think every MMO development teem should have behavioral science experts and psychologists on the team helping developers make decisions that encourage the kind of the behavior they want, or at a minimum at least to make sure the developers aren't making decisions that encourage the kind of behavior they DON'T want.

 

  Zikari

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 78

4/03/13 3:02:48 AM#37

The Fallout and Elder Scroll Games are the only ones at the moment that allow a neutral play or undecicive play like the older Baldurs Gate titles. There are are lot of quests and choices in Skyrim where you can't really guess where what decision and will lead you and it is perfectly fine to not do some quests for people you don't like. You are not incentivised by playing either all out good or all out evil and make decisions along the way. Best example from Skyrim is the Stormcloak vs. Empire conflict, both sides has good points and they tried hard to make both valid choices without one being abviously right, wrong, good or evil.

I dislike the Bioware system with the clear, red is though, blue is saintly system, it is very watered down most of the time and though decisions, like the final Geth vs. Quarians choice in ME3 are far and in between. I hope an MMO will finally allow this open morale system...

  NL-Rikkert

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 112

Currently playing:TES series,Smite,SWTOR

4/03/13 3:17:46 AM#38

Wish games would give proper choice once again, nowadays players get herded through a game and everything is simplified.

It used to be like (and should always be in RPG games, unless you're actually trying to tell a proper story):

 

Man A wants you to murder Madam B, next you have a few options:

- Kill madam B

- Kill Man A

- Ignore Man A / Madam B

- Bribe/intimidate Man A (to leave Madam B alone)

- Kill both Man A and Madam B

- Tell Madam B about Man A's plan (make her dissapear)?

- Let Madam B bribe you in to killing Man A instead

 

 

STOOPID
When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.

  jbombard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 449

4/03/13 3:40:29 AM#39
Originally posted by Zikari

The Fallout and Elder Scroll Games are the only ones at the moment that allow a neutral play or undecicive play like the older Baldurs Gate titles. There are are lot of quests and choices in Skyrim where you can't really guess where what decision and will lead you and it is perfectly fine to not do some quests for people you don't like. You are not incentivised by playing either all out good or all out evil and make decisions along the way. Best example from Skyrim is the Stormcloak vs. Empire conflict, both sides has good points and they tried hard to make both valid choices without one being abviously right, wrong, good or evil.

I dislike the Bioware system with the clear, red is though, blue is saintly system, it is very watered down most of the time and though decisions, like the final Geth vs. Quarians choice in ME3 are far and in between. I hope an MMO will finally allow this open morale system...

I don't even know why we need a system.  Having intresting choices is great, but why does that need to be tied to some big meter in the sky telling you how moral character your charcter is without understanding the reasons behind why the player does the things they do.

 

Intresting choices aren't good vs. evil, intresting choices are often on the same side of the scale justice vs. compassion, greed vs. pride, etc...  When a choice is clearly good vs. evil it isn't very interesting because the player is going to just choose whichever they feel fits their character and it requires very little thought.

 

I don't need some complex reward system tied to how moral I am, or some changes to the game world based on my morality.  All we need is for choices to have repercussions, it need not matter why we choose what we did to the game, simply that doing so caused other things to happen.

 

 

  allendale5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 125

4/03/13 5:14:32 AM#40
No MMO truly offers the option to be 'bad' and advance in skill or level, without penalty in either challenge or reward. 
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