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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Honestly, disgusted with the testing monetization

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101 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17116

4/02/13 9:00:23 AM#81
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

"If you pay us enough money, we'll let you find bugs for us!"

 

And all the fools open their wallet.

 

Would these same MMORPG gamers pay McDonalds to let them work there?  It comes with a free uniform!!

That's a very cynical way of looking at it.

It's getting to be that small developers "can't win for losing."

If they get larger amounts of money from publishers then those publishers are going to want a certain level of return for their investment and will put pressure on the developers. Developers more often than not change the way the game is being developes and it becomes a sanitized mess and then the players complain.

Developers don't take publisher's money, scrape together enough to make some sort of game but there are holes, bugs, they need to release or the entire thing will fall flat and it just isn't good enough and players complain.

It seems that players want developers to:

put in millions upon millions of dollars to make a AAA game BUT make it so the game is innovative, different and incorporate features that push the boundaries of game development and then be satisfied with a smaller die hard crowd who might not be able to keep the game running.

And if the game fails? Then players want the developers to do it all again.

Where is the developre's incentive? The rebuttal to that is "no, we just want developers to make good, fun games". well, I believe all developers want to make good fun games. But they need money to do it . It's "rock and a hard place".

This whole kickstarter things is not about "paying for beta". That's something else. This is an investment in making a product that would not get made or would have a slimmer chance of getting made without the additional funds.

Since the individual amounts are so small, any financial return would also be small if not negligable, therefore, besides being part of the process the investors not only get a product they want that would not have been made because of such a small group of interested players, but they get some sort of thanks.

they being in beta is more about them being part of the process. Most players will never have the ability to make a video game. Now they can be part of the team, the backers, and get something that they help create.

The only problem I see is when you get players that are so excited and not very wise and they invest thousands of dollars that they shouldn't be investing only to get something that was less than what they wanted.

 

few people aspire to work at mcdonald's simply for the incredible life experience that it gives. Many people are not creative, do not have talent or knowledge and would never be able to create something that they love and are invested in. This gives them that chance.

 

 

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

4/02/13 9:07:14 AM#82
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by OgreRaper
I think it's a good thing. You know People who help fund a project are going to actually care about how it turns out. Rather than inviting random people who sign up for every alpha/beta test they can.

So why not invite long time DAOC players to be testers of the new game in the same franchise?

Oh, that's right, money.

Yeah its about money.  Without this "money" you speak of this game woulnd't be made.

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

4/02/13 9:10:20 AM#83
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

I prefer to support developers by purchasing the game they have released.  I don't need to send employees in a random company checks to show my "support".

 

it isn't that I don't have the money to buy the offers, but rather I have too much reasoning ability to throw away the money.  I'm glad you enjoy being a faceless supporter sending him his paycheck as a sign of your undying love for some man, but to me it just sounds very silly.

Then the whole concept is Kickstarter is not for you.   Ignore the Kickstarter and if the game looks good when it launches buy it then.  Simple concept.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/02/13 9:16:07 AM#84

Originally posted by Oldskoo

+1 I like this guy. Good post!

Thanks for the support :)

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

"If you pay us enough money, we'll let you find bugs for us!"

 

And all the fools open their wallet.

 

Would these same MMORPG gamers pay McDonalds to let them work there?  It comes with a free uniform!!

That's a very cynical way of looking at it.

It's getting to be that small developers "can't win for losing."

If they get larger amounts of money from publishers then those publishers are going to want a certain level of return for their investment and will put pressure on the developers. Developers more often than not change the way the game is being developes and it becomes a sanitized mess and then the players complain.

Developers don't take publisher's money, scrape together enough to make some sort of game but there are holes, bugs, they need to release or the entire thing will fall flat and it just isn't good enough and players complain.

It seems that players want developers to:

put in millions upon millions of dollars to make a AAA game BUT make it so the game is innovative, different and incorporate features that push the boundaries of game development and then be satisfied with a smaller die hard crowd who might not be able to keep the game running.

And if the game fails? Then players want the developers to do it all again.

Where is the developre's incentive? The rebuttal to that is "no, we just want developers to make good, fun games". well, I believe all developers want to make good fun games. But they need money to do it . It's "rock and a hard place".

This whole kickstarter things is not about "paying for beta". That's something else. This is an investment in making a product that would not get made or would have a slimmer chance of getting made without the additional funds.

Since the individual amounts are so small, any financial return would also be small if not negligable, therefore, besides being part of the process the investors not only get a product they want that would not have been made because of such a small group of interested players, but they get some sort of thanks.

they being in beta is more about them being part of the process. Most players will never have the ability to make a video game. Now they can be part of the team, the backers, and get something that they help create.

The only problem I see is when you get players that are so excited and not very wise and they invest thousands of dollars that they shouldn't be investing only to get something that was less than what they wanted.

 

few people aspire to work at mcdonald's simply for the incredible life experience that it gives. Many people are not creative, do not have talent or knowledge and would never be able to create something that they love and are invested in. This gives them that chance.

 

 

I agree with that post, the fact is making a game isn't that simple than you can afford not to sell it. That's why developpers and the game itself are so dependent on the publisher will, and why this game have a KS campaign to get free of it.

  outd00rminer

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/10
Posts: 37

4/02/13 9:51:41 AM#85

So in this thread we basically have people pissing and moaning about how others choose to spend their money.  

  Zinzan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

4/02/13 9:58:47 AM#86
Originally posted by outd00rminer

So in this thread we basically have people pissing and moaning about how others choose to spend their money.  

No, swing and a miss, but thanks for playing.

People are concerned becuase some see it as a pay-to-test and are concerned that they will not use the best testers available, but those who pay the most for the privaledge instead.

No reason why some of those who pay will not be good testers, but not all will.

Truth is no-one but a handful of the dev team will see anything for a long time, alpha may not mean early alpha, it might mean final alpha renamed and broken down into bite-sized stages for those who want to pay for it. We simply don't know enough about the specifics of it yet.

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

4/02/13 10:05:20 AM#87
Originally posted by Zinzan
Originally posted by outd00rminer

So in this thread we basically have people pissing and moaning about how others choose to spend their money.  

No, not even close.

People are concerned becuase some see it as a pay-to-test and are concerned that they will not use the best testers available, but those who pay the most for the privaledge instead.

No reason why some of those who pay will not be good testers, but not all will.

Truth is no-one but a handful of the dev team will see anything for a long time, alpha may not mean early alpha, it might mean final alpha renamed and broken down into bite-sized stages for those who want to pay for it. We simply don't know enough about the specifics of it yet.

But if that was their only concern they would have done a little digging instead of crying and saw that Mark has stated it won't simply be backers from the high paying tiers that will be in the alpha and beta. I think there is something to what you say but I think there's a concern from some corners that people will now have to pay to be in a beta instead of getting an early look at the game for free and deciding whether they like it or not, and that CU is helping establish such a precedent. But I'm pretty cynical when it come's to gamers in general so I could be wrong!

  User Deleted
4/02/13 10:13:16 AM#88

Well considering a lot of people now just play betas and don't actually ever buy the games, it makes sense for them to get their moneys worth out of you before you jump ship.  How many times do we see posts about people pre-ordering to get into the open beta only to immediately cancel it just prior to the game being released.  Games aren't made for free... someone has to pay the bills.

  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

4/02/13 10:14:13 AM#89

If you don't trust MJ, CSE, KS or CU don't back it. But stop persuading others to follow a blurred vision of what's wrong with this project.

As said before: MJ will invite people to the IT if he feels they can contribute.

The people that have faith in the project should back it if they wish to do so... The people that don't have faith in it should not back the project and find other avenues of opportunity.

 

 

 

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
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  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/02/13 10:16:27 AM#90

It's just money...the only reason people are whining about backers getting to play in beta is jealousy for their inability to back in those tiers.

 

Again...it's just money.  Sorry you're not in the bracket that can say that, don't worry you will be someday, maybe.

 

Beyond that, you can't fault them for having a tiered system that ACTUALLY GETS THE GAME FUNDED because people actually want to invest in the tiers.

 

I truly can't believe this tantrum is being thrown over such a miniscule amount of money.  This is less than a single days work.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2718

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

4/02/13 10:18:54 AM#91
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Hokibukisa

I guess if people are willing to pay for it, charge em. But damn, this kickstarter is focusing on it like its such a privilege to play an unfinished mmo.

 

Am cool with rewards tiers, I guess I'm just disgusted with how mmos and beta tests have turned out. Used to be something you'd want to invite experienced users to participate in and you would thank them for it. Now you sell it and the testers thank you for it.

 

Meh.

"If you pay us enough money, we'll let you find bugs for us!"

 

And all the fools open their wallet.

 

Would these same MMORPG gamers pay McDonalds to let them work there?  It comes with a free uniform!!

Call it companies being smarter and more innovative.  I assure you even the old MMO's if the ycould go back would of done the same thing.  The reason they didn't is because they couldn't.  Now that they can, they will.  Its called capitilism. 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17116

4/02/13 10:20:53 AM#92
Originally posted by Zinzan
Originally posted by outd00rminer

So in this thread we basically have people pissing and moaning about how others choose to spend their money.  

No, swing and a miss, but thanks for playing.

People are concerned becuase some see it as a pay-to-test and are concerned that they will not use the best testers available, but those who pay the most for the privaledge instead.

No reason why some of those who pay will not be good testers, but not all will.

Truth is no-one but a handful of the dev team will see anything for a long time, alpha may not mean early alpha, it might mean final alpha renamed and broken down into bite-sized stages for those who want to pay for it. We simply don't know enough about the specifics of it yet.

But you can never be assured that people are going to test even if it's by lottery.

However, people who invest, in any company, are many times given perks. Please keep in mind that this is not mutual fund investing, it's actually buying stock in a company.

Shareholder perks are common.

And one coveted activty for gamers is to be involved in an "actual beta".

If they invest then they shoudl get access over everyone else. From what I understand, this won't be the case for this game but an investor is an investor.

What's happening here is that people want everything to be equal and life doesn't work that way. Believe it or not, some companies have employee only stores where there are large discounts and investors can have access to it. Or some investment companies offer huge discounts at luxury stores.

 

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

4/02/13 10:22:16 AM#93
Originally posted by pmiles

Well considering a lot of people now just play betas and don't actually ever buy the games, it makes sense for them to get their moneys worth out of you before you jump ship.  How many times do we see posts about people pre-ordering to get into the open beta only to immediately cancel it just prior to the game being released.  Games aren't made for free... someone has to pay the bills.

I couldn't agree more. That is why I love KSer being an option for small developers and niche gamers can be treated again. That is also why I have no problem with the backers who contribute more to these projects being given extra perks for their support. 

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2519

4/02/13 2:31:12 PM#94
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by OgreRaper
I think it's a good thing. You know People who help fund a project are going to actually care about how it turns out. Rather than inviting random people who sign up for every alpha/beta test they can.

So why not invite long time DAOC players to be testers of the new game in the same franchise?

Oh, that's right, money.

Because there's no way of verifying that everyone who once played DAoC is interested in testing internal unfinished aspects of the game? Duh?

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

 
OP  4/02/13 4:36:44 PM#95
Originally posted by Cirin

It's just money...the only reason people are whining about backers getting to play in beta is jealousy for their inability to back in those tiers.

 

Again...it's just money.  Sorry you're not in the bracket that can say that, don't worry you will be someday, maybe.

 

Beyond that, you can't fault them for having a tiered system that ACTUALLY GETS THE GAME FUNDED because people actually want to invest in the tiers.

 

I truly can't believe this tantrum is being thrown over such a miniscule amount of money.  This is less than a single days work.

I get to name my own potion/poison, and I made this here thread.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2111

joie de vivre

4/02/13 4:40:09 PM#96

I have been sitting on this forum and interacting with it more than playing any of the "MMORPGs" that I can play right now. That is sad, and it is exactly why I threw in some cash. I'd rather ride along with CU and feel like I have an opinion, a lobby, than play the garbage we have right now.

Is it a gamble? Yes. It is faith and hope? Yes and yes. Does it say more about the state of the industry than the state of the players? Yes.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

4/02/13 5:36:31 PM#97

When will people start understanding that these are pledges and not investments.

 

It is exactly the same as pledging money to PBS stations ... so you can enjoy programming for shows you personally put money toward. It is a vote and as everyone has been reminded (at least in America), money is free speech.

 

You get a WHACK of rewards for you pledge and even the oportunity to impact the games development through early testing. Often even real investors do not have this voice. What possible way could a fan of a game have more impact on the game other than being hired by the company?

 

I also laugh each and every time when someone replies with the over used "a fool and his money ..." proverb. I have no idea why so many are scared or upset over how other people spend their money. How many PBS stations would exist without their viewers pledges? This game will not exist without it's fans. It is democratic. What confuses people is that they think it is capitalism. Democracy and capitalism are not mutually inclusive. Even America is a poor example of democracy now (it's far more a plutocracy) which is maybe what confuses people.

 

Pledging your money is a vote that you want this game made ... and you get some nice thank you gifts. You are not an investor. The capitalist engine then takes over and the game is made. We are not part of that (as official venture capistalist/investors other than influencing through testing feedback) until a product for consumption is made (release).

 

What is the alternative? CSE looks for major investors and distributor who likely takes over development control and player influence during development is minimal. The game is shaped into a genre that "fits" into the larger companies marketing model and we get a game nowhere near it's original concept. The only benefit is that it may have a larger budget but likely also a vastly inefficient method of development as often they dramatically alter development direction, timeline and even demographics mid-stream depending on how investor and quarterly reports go. They can also cancel a game even after spending more money than most indie games have because they look at the short term gain and not the long term. Game development has fallen into the plutocracy model and kickstarter is actually swinging it back into a the realm of democracy.

 

How in God's name is this the better than direct player/developer interaction with the game being the only element on the table? Perhaps if players are confused or upset over this evolution of game development. If so they still have options to confront developers and sell themselves as investors. I bet they wouldn't turn you down if you negotiated a proper deal. Good luck though trying to be one with even the largest pledges you can make on Kickstarter. A fool and his money may very well be soon parted ... but the only fools I see here are the ones assuming donations come from fools. They are consumers and fans making an educated decision that could lead to a product they enjoy and the development of long term jobs. These people vote with their money while others with their cynicism.

You stay sassy!

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

4/02/13 5:41:10 PM#98
Originally posted by Tamanous

When will people start understanding that these are pledges and not investments.

 

It is exactly the same as pledging money to PBS stations ... so you can enjoy programming for shows you personally put money toward. It is a vote and as everyone has been reminded (at least in America), money is free speech.

 

You get a WHACK of rewards for you pledge and even the oportunity to impact the games development through early testing. Often even real investors do not have this voice. What possible way could a fan of a game have more impact on the game other than being hired by the company?

 

I also laugh each and every time when someone replies with the over used "a fool and his money ..." proverb. I have no idea why so many are scared or upset over how other people spend their money. How many PBS stations would exist without their viewers pledges? This game will not exist without it's fans. It is democratic. What confuses people is that they think it is capitalism. Democracy and capitalism are not mutually inclusive. Even America is a poor example of democracy now (it's far more a plutocracy) which is maybe what confuses people.

 

Pledging your money is a vote that you want this game made ... and you get some nice thank you gifts. You are not an investor. The capitalist engine then takes over and the game is made. We are not part of that until a product for consumption is made (release).

 

What is the alternative? CSE looks for major investors and distributor who likely takes over development control and player influence during development is minimal. The game is shaped into a genre that "fits" into the larger companies marketing model and we get a game nowhere near it's original concept. The only benefit is that it may have a larger budget but likely also a vastly inefficient method of development as often they dramatically alter development direction, timeline and even demographics mid-stream depending on investor and quarterly reports go. Game development has fallen into the plutocracy model and kickstarter is actually swinging it back into a the realm of democracy.

 

How in God's name is this the better than direct player/developer interaction with the game being the only element on the table? Perhaps if players are confused or upset over this evolution of game development. If so they still have options to confront developers and sell themselves as investors. I bet they wouldn't turn you down if you negotiated a proper deal. Good luck though trying to be one with even the largest pledges you can make on Kickstarter. A fool and his money may very well be soon parted ... but the only fools I see here are the ones assuming donations come from fools. They are consumers and fans making an educated decision that could lead to a product they enjoy and the development of long term jobs. These people vote with their money while others with their cynicism.

Wow, can we just take this one post and sticky it? This person couldn't have spoken words more true. I salute you!

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2519

4/02/13 5:50:20 PM#99
Originally posted by osiriszoran
Kickstart Vaporware or games that go straight to F2P. In anycase, what recent mmorpg without major funding has gone on to be epic? What have these Devs produced that shows they can make a quality MMORPG and support it? I truly want to know their qualifications before i shell out money for a product not due for 3 years.

Darkfall turned out to be not only epic, but one of the most impressive MMOs of the last 7 years.

  taurak

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 174

4/02/13 5:51:12 PM#100
Originally posted by Hokibukisa

I guess if people are willing to pay for it, charge em. But damn, this kickstarter is focusing on it like its such a privilege to play an unfinished mmo.

 

Am cool with rewards tiers, I guess I'm just disgusted with how mmos and beta tests have turned out. Used to be something you'd want to invite experienced users to participate in and you would thank them for it. Now you sell it and the testers thank you for it.

 

Meh.

PEople want to fund this game because we want it to be made. We do not want it to be diluted by a publisher such as EA. We want to have the game that Mark has described in his interviews. We want a game that is not full of bullcrap to please the masses.

We want OUR game.

If you don't like it, go back to WoW son. But you're going to be missing the best PvP game concept that has EVER been thought up. I'd suggest you kick in for the kickstarter.

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