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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?

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246 posts found
  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5185

4/02/13 3:22:12 PM#41
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

That's probably because you never bothered to find out what Kickstarter even is. And I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Well for that this contract that is signed by everyone has to exist first no?

 There actually io a contract but no signatures. It's between Kickstarter and their clients. It's purely to protect Kickstarter and  provides no protection for donors.

 

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2525

4/02/13 3:23:56 PM#42
Originally posted by red_cruiser

All the successful kickstarters seem to be done by people who could go out and attract a lot of investors attention without having to  milk potential players for extra $$$.   Many if not all attract traditional investors while still milking players through kickstarter. You want to plunk down $500 bucks to "help a game get made", but I'm willing to bet those games are going to end up getting made one way or the other.

You are 100% incorrect.

The big Kickstarter successes, like Wasteland 2 and such, were done through Kickstarter exactly because no publishers were interested. Brian Fargo tried to get Wasteland 2 made for FIVE YEARS before he tried Kickstarter, and NO ONE would back it.

The only big name Kickstarter I can think of that managed to attract additional investing AFTER a Kickstarer was Star Citizen, and they got backed only AFTER they saw the public interest in it. That game was NOT "going to get made anyway".

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

 
OP  4/02/13 3:24:32 PM#43
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

That's probably because you never bothered to find out what Kickstarter even is. And I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Well for that this contract that is signed by everyone has to exist first no?

 There actually io a contract but no signatures. It's between Kickstarter and their clients. It's purely to protect Kickstarter and  provides no protection for donors.

 

Exactly the point i was trying to make regarding this imaginary contract that is signed by everyone and makes the devs legaly liable to pledgers.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2525

4/02/13 3:27:11 PM#44
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

That's probably because you never bothered to find out what Kickstarter even is. And I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Well for that this contract that is signed by everyone has to exist first no?

 There actually io a contract but no signatures. It's between Kickstarter and their clients. It's purely to protect Kickstarter and  provides no protection for donors.

 

Exactly the point i was trying to make regarding this imaginary contract that is signed by everyone and makes the devs legaly liable to pledgers.

Kickstarter's clients ARE the people who pledge money. If Kickstarter didn't ensure that people weren't getting scammed, people wouldn't use it, and then Kickstarter wouldn't make any money. There is a contract, and it gives a very strict outline of what is required from the developer.

  SoulStain

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/12
Posts: 204

4/02/13 3:28:59 PM#45
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SoulStain
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

 

In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

And with a Kickstarter the game may not be made even with your money. No guarantee at all. 

 

Except for, you know, the legal contract that everyone has to sign and adhere to, or they get sued out the ass.

You paranoid people who don't seem to like seeing good unique games being made should really take 4 seconds to look at what kickstarter is before you tear it apart.

Sure you can sue them...after hundreds of hours of  lawyer fees trying to determine what constitutes a "good faith" attempt you might get your $50 ( or whatever) back.

  treelo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/09
Posts: 70

4/02/13 3:29:36 PM#46

I wonder how many pledgers on Kickstarter have ever complained about the price of a video game.

Pre-ordering digital copies of games is mostly retarded. 

MMOs often offer early access, either through beta tests or an early starter program where you're paying disproportionate amounts of money assuming your game is subscription-based.  It can actually be a good thing, giving you a better idea of what to expect and whether you are justified in raving like a loon on the internet about the next greatest game ever. 

Offline games you're paying a little extra for often a minor content update, the cost is often proportional to the reward; cosmetic items, an extra weapon, or a painfully brief "bonus" level with no bearing on the game as a whole.  All too often the additional weapons far outweigh standard weapons available to you in the game.  Your Limited Edition ends up being a Limited Options.

Both are a matter for personal choice, as the actual concern of not being able to acquire a copy of your game (the original reason for pre-ordering) has all but disappeared.  Even with a single game store in town, I can order online.  I don't though, I pre-order titles selectively (Farcry 3 and Dead Space 3 being the last two) based in part upon previous experience with the franchise and their developers/publishers.  The main reason is  for the glorious 25% extra trade-in value, where it is possible to turn your deposit into a profit.  The actual bonuses on offer in-game are unimportant.

Kickstarter is a joke.  A nice experiment on alternative methods of publication, and further proof that sections of humanity are beyond help.  Smart developers will tier their project to generate more cash, rather than meet their targets (which are hilariously short of what is actually required to provide a quality product) and create a game the people funding it want.  Removing the publisher simply gives them the freedom to make their game, not yours.  Of course, you can increase your pledge or give them free publicity on in the internet by hassling complete strangers to get the extra $500,000 for the content you actually want to see.  This isn't always the case, but in every major project I've bothered to look at, it usually is.

Face facts, the best indie titles of the past few years have been self-funded, and/or made by individuals/tiny groups who managed to produce unique experiences without begging for money.  Throwing cash at stuff rarely works, unless you're in a strip club.  In any other case, you're just asking to be burned.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/02/13 3:29:56 PM#47

Other interesting quotes from here:

http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/when-kickstarter-investors-want-their-money-back.html

"Kickstarter, he adds, "changed the course of my life and how I operate." It seems obvious now, but "there's a huge gap between having an idea, and designing a product, and actually manufacturing something.""

"He adds, "This whole idea of crowdfunding is that you're getting rid of VC's quite often. It's not just about getting dumb money--you want smart money. And you lose that when you go through the crowdfunding route. You lose the smart money.""

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5680

4/02/13 3:38:50 PM#48
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

And those 41% that fail... no one payed a dime for. If a project fails, no one gets charged.

LOL NO!  If a project fails to complete its funding goal people can get their money back. If a project just fails after the funding goal, NO ONE will get their money back.

They aren't legally obligated to succeed.  They're legally obligated to make a good faith attempt and the burden of proof is on the supporter to prove that in court.

The end result isn't much different than pre-ordering or purchasing a suport pack directly from the developer/publisher.  In both cases they need to recoup their costs and generate revenue.  In the KS scenario the contributor assumes a greater risk but the paid advantages are usually better (funny how pay2win snuck in through the backdoor there).  In the pre-order scenario there is less risk in that the project will likely get published, even if the player doesn't like the game.  The pay2win advantages are usually smaller because they are designed for more people to use.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2339

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/02/13 3:41:04 PM#49
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Burntvet
Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

 

You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

Is he? so if the game doesn't turn out  as adverstised during kickstarter annoucement what do you do? get your money back or sue the company?

People have tried to sue over failed projects where refunds were never issued.  The creators just file for bankrupty and the backers get to bite the bullet.

Not to mention, how much in legal fees are you willing to spend to recoup a $20 donation?

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  treelo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/09
Posts: 70

4/02/13 3:44:53 PM#50
Not to mention, how much in legal fees are you willing to spend to recoup a $20 donation?

Personally, I'd kickstart the legal fees.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2525

4/02/13 3:49:27 PM#51
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

And those 41% that fail... no one payed a dime for. If a project fails, no one gets charged.

LOL NO!  If a project fails to complete its funding goal people can get their money back.

That is EXACTLY what I said.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2525

4/02/13 3:50:14 PM#52
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

And those 41% that fail... no one payed a dime for. If a project fails, no one gets charged.


The end result isn't much different than pre-ordering

Except for the fact that, you know, without Kickstarter, the game you're paying for would not even exist in the first place...

  nbtscan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 455

4/02/13 3:54:48 PM#53

I think both are pretty foolish.

As others said earlier in the thread, pre-ordering just used to be a way stores like Gamestop would reserve a copy of a game for you for usually a small upfront cost. ($5-$10)  Now it's something totally different.

Nowadays you almost feel compelled to preorder so that you get the special store only perks that come with the game.

I preordered Aion to get in the beta.  That turned out to be a mistake.  I'll never preorder for early access again.

 

As far as kickstarters go, you're throwing money at an idea.  There is no tangible item until it actually gets funded.  Once it is funded, it's just like the stock market, to use an analogy from someone else.  Your investment may or may not pan out.  There's nothing stopping a developer from doing a complete 180 on their development stance once they have the money.

  Arcona

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/04
Posts: 1189

4/02/13 3:58:34 PM#54

Kickstarter is to get rid of publisher, like getting rid of EA!

Kickstarter to make the developers know if there is interest in their game.

Kickstarter to get into alpha/beta for a game you are interested in, and maybe waited 10+ years to get developed. (like Elite Dangerous)

If you back a kickstarter you know that the game is not developed yet, so you thrust them with your money. Maybe the developer made some big memorable games in the past, so you know they will deliver and not let you down.

All in all you are a grown person who can make up his own mind what he is spending money on.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5680

4/02/13 4:00:05 PM#55
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

And those 41% that fail... no one payed a dime for. If a project fails, no one gets charged.


The end result isn't much different than pre-ordering

Except for the fact that, you know, without Kickstarter, the game you're paying for would not even exist in the first place...

That isn't true at all and horrible logic.  You don't know if the game would exist with or without the KS funding.  It's just poor logic to assert that "if not a then not b".  The fancy word is it's a contrapositive.  If that were true then you would also have to accept that "if not b then not a" or in other words, "If it wouldn't have existed without KS then KS wouldn't exist without it" which is very silly.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2525

4/02/13 4:04:20 PM#56
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

And those 41% that fail... no one payed a dime for. If a project fails, no one gets charged.


The end result isn't much different than pre-ordering

Except for the fact that, you know, without Kickstarter, the game you're paying for would not even exist in the first place...

That isn't true at all and horrible logic. 

It's not logic, it's fact. Many of the games that broke through with Kickstarter, like the DoubleFine game and Wasteland 2, were games that the developers tried, and failed, to get funded by traidtional publishers for years beforehand.

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1198

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

4/02/13 4:11:38 PM#57

 

I think people are quoting things from either the worst or best of both worlds when trying to prove their point.  There is "bad" pre-ording and "bad" kickstarting just as there is "good" pre-ordering and "good" kickstarting.

A bad pre-order would be if you offered someone something that was better than what is available in game or will be better than whatever you start with.  The prospect of "beta" or "early access" being bad is really only if there's a competitive edge to the game that requires levels and has vast differences in gear (though still, learning systems before someone else would still give an hour or two advantage depending on the learning curve of the game).  If it's wholely aesthetics or some such then it's just a matter of entitlement in that people decided not to pre-order it themselves when they had the opportunity.  Granted, there is a growing resentment in that they may have taken something that was already in the game simply to make it exclusive and get people into subscribing.

I use to fall for this sort of pre-ordering all the time, but it became increasingly obvious that I was buying the pre-order and not the game when Defiance came around.  I'm not a fan of FPS games at all, and played a couple beta weekends of Defiance; it was a decent enough game to keep my attention for the time I played, but I kept on catching myself saying that I needed to buy this game simply because of the pre-order bonuses offered on Steam.  It wasn't "I need to buy it because I like it" or "I should buy it because I think it's good", but rather the bonuses were the sole reason I kept on citing whenever talking about it.

In hindsight, the fact that they advertise "the fastest car in the game" (steam video) as being a part of the pre-order, I'm especially content that I did not buy the game.  Whether or not it is the fastest car or the game, and you can get the best vehicle at the start if you pre-order, isn't the whole point though.  Sure, it just means you'll be faster than everyone else, and you'll finish the game quicker, and get to higher levels faster... but the fact they were advertising such allowed me to have an epiphany with regards to this whole pre-order thing.

Back in the day you only pre-ordered just to make sure a popular game wouldn't run out and you'd be out of luck for weeks or even months.  In the digital age, it's just to gauge how the game is going to do, and to influence one's decision to get the game by offering exclusive items that were ripped from the complete game.  If one does not find this appaling in some way, then that's their prerogative as I have no right to say "dude, you're wrong".  But I do find it a tad hypocritical if one is against day one DLC and then supports this type of digital pre-order.  Not to mention, you now have to consider what outlet you want to buy from depending on what different thing they offer (more things you won't have access to that were ripped from the game, only this time it's impossible for even pre-orders to get everything because of it) instead of just using your favorite or most trusted source for buying products.

 

When it comes to Kickstarter there is typically two things to consider.  Is the game being made by a company or publisher that has the means to make the game themself?  Or is it a somewhat Indie company asking for help (or someone you know isn't that big / aren't able to get investor support and has an idea they want to try that may be risky to said investors) to actually get it started from the ground up.

Now, if for some reason specific items are offered to these people, it depends if it's okay or not depending on your perspective.  Since the game has yet to be created yet, there is no ripping content out of the game as the game will not exist without these types of support.  But, the offering of "the fastest vehicle" or a gun that has "plus one stat" or something will still be pushing it in terms of being "okay" in my opinion.

But ultimately if you're a fan of a niche genre that isn't well represented (or hasn't been for a near decade!) then kickstarter is great for developer and fan alike.  It would have to be foolish to think otherwise when these type of conditions are met as a whole.  To date I have only supported two games on Kickstarter:  There was Shadowrun and some kind of sandbox game that an unheard of development house needed the funs to actually purchase some kind've engine.  Both I sent around $15 to, and there were a few games that I just donated $1 to because I liked the idea, but think they could've done it themselves in some way without involving kickstarter.

When looking at things in a black and white kind've way, one can say "oh you're getting what is essential a pre-order bonus by doing this" but the fact is that conditions are different, not all offer items that give unfair advantages, and many would be supporting this game even if rewards weren't offered.  I would've still gave $15 to shadow run even if they didn't give me a copy of the game when it was finished.  In fact, I still plan to buy a couple copies of it despite all that, because it's something I want to support and would like to see more of the same coming out on the market to help overshadow all these first person shooter games.  Indeed, and unlike my second paragraph above, I do not find myself saying "I should do this because I get an awesome car" as opposed to "I should do this because I will help create a potentially awesome game that otherwise wouldn't be funded or created".

It's okay for most to be shortsighted or see things in black and white, but there are major and significant differences from buying a complete game just for items that were ripped from it and offered as exclusive pre-order content and helping a game even get started because there are few people that investors see which are interested in a particular game.  There's nothing bad with either of them as it's a matter of if you want to do it or not, and nobody should be telling you otherwise.  But, all the same, there is a difference (for those willing to do the research on both the pre-orders and kickstarters to see if they fit the conditions that match your own morales on a case by case basis).  

 

All in all, here is a poorly construed example:

 

If Blizzard Entertainment decided they wanted to make a FPS Starcraft game, investors would be lining up with dollar signs in their eyes (heck they could probably fund it themselves because they're so successful).  If they instead went to Kickstarter, then that would be cause to quirk and eyebrow.

If Stormshadow gaming (made up), an indie developer that has only one product under their name, went to investors with an idea of a tactical RPG that was a throwback to the 90s and was hardcore in difficulty... Investors would likely just laugh at them and their idea.  The game would not be created unless they went to kickstarter and asked for help from people who enjoyed those types of games (especially if hard in difficulty and not casual friendly (which would make it even more niche) when they were made.  It would be up to them to make sure rewards were tasteful, but these are things because of kickstarter and wouldn't be in game otherwise (or the game wouldn't even be made anyway).

 

Though there is also another point to kickstarter, in that sometimes it's used to show investors that there is interest in the game.  If it's a high budget game, then it's likely that this is the case.  Some also cite using kickstarter so they don't have to deal with investors wanting them to "change" their vision of the game so that they can make more money (if it's a game that doesn't need a huge budget and just a few dedicated developers).

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Khalathwyr

Tipster

Joined: 6/02/04
Posts: 3151

Google is your friend.

4/02/13 4:13:15 PM#58
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Remember this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

People get so much flak for pre ordering a MMO for merely 50 to 60 bucks while people pledge hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money on kickstarters. How is it any different? all you got is word of the developers and big promises. You don't get to participate before hand or test anything before handing out your hard earned cash.

Atleast, people who pre order have enough videos, previews and beta testing to make up their mind while pledgers just go by someone's word alone and promises which might be as real as pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Can anyone help me understand why former is bad and looked down upon in general while later is ok and encouraged?

At least with Kickstarter the developers is trying to make the type of game I want. People can naysay and take a negative view all they want but honestly it is not until later on this year that the first game kickstarters from well known developers are scheduled to release. THEN judgements can factually be made. As far as efforts from indie, first timers...I personally don't kickstart such projects.

 

Projects done traditionally with a publisher and have a pre-order are usually games that I'm not 100% on board with but I get bombarded with "Give it a try, you may like it!" So I try and then I don't like it.

 

Again, at least with the KS games I've backed I've liked the total direction they outline. And since they don't have a publisher breathing on their necks, when the game is done it should be all that is advertised as opposed to having cut X and Y to make the publishers demanded release date.

"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

Kickstarter 1 / Naysayers 0

  taus01

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

4/02/13 4:14:37 PM#59

 

Pre-orders where made so the stores know how much product they need to make their most valuable customers happy and not to overstock on games that fail out of the gates. It had nothing to do with putting up THE FULL PRICE of the game to get into beta or alpha or to get some worthless digital items.

"Pre-ordering" a game digitally for full price or even more is completely INSANE. Of cause everyone is entitled to do stupid things.

"Pre-Ordering", you are guaranteed a product.

 

Kickstarter is a nice idea on paper, i will admit that. The reality however is that you give away money for the promise that you get a product within a reasonable timeframe.  You give money away, thats it, donations. It's gone and neither Kickstarter nor the Project creator has to deliver anything if they do not want to. It's that simple. You have no way to get back your money.

Kickstarter you are not guaranteed anything. ALL the risk is ON YOU.

 

The next logical step, not a big one at all, would be if you just give me your money. No questions asked. I take it and we are both happy. Can we do this, please?

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  User Deleted
4/02/13 4:20:02 PM#60

Preordering is much less risky than funding a game on KS. The reason is that you can cancel your preorder at anytime. I think with KS (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the only way you can get your money back is if the project fails to fund. Also, if you preorder on Amazon, you are charged nothing until the game actually ships. There is 0 down payment and you can cancel at anytime, so there is 0 risk. I think with gamestop you have to put $5 down (again correct me if I'm wrong), but even that is much less risky than any kickstarter.

Also, if a game is up for preorder, it is probably mostly already finished and is backed by a reputable publisher/studio where as in KS, the game's development may not have even begun! 

So there really is no comparison in terms of risk when it comes to preordering vs KS.

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