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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?

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246 posts found
  Doogiehowser

Elite Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1926

 
OP  4/02/13 2:45:22 PM#21
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Burntvet
Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

 

You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

Is he? so if the game doesn't turn out  as adverstised during kickstarter annoucement what do you do? get your money back or sue the company?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

4/02/13 2:47:29 PM#22
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

 

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

 

Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

 

http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2796

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

4/02/13 2:48:46 PM#23

THe thing is, those pre-orders are for games that ARE ALREADY MADE. Kickstarter is for projects that aren't there and need funding to actually see the light of day. Theres a huge difference there. You are essencially investing in a game that would otherwise have no chance to come to fruition. Often, those projects are indie developed or done by small studios that can take more risks and can go outside the box unlike insert generic shooter here. 

 

In short:

To pre-order a game you pay for something that in most cases WILL come out, in a kickstarter, your supporting a project that would otherwise not happen. 

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3026

4/02/13 2:51:47 PM#24
I'll probably never pre-order or use kickstarter ever again.  Last game I pre-ordered (if you don't include expansions) was Rift.  There hasn't been a game since that I was like "O...M...G!!!"  So I don't pre-order them.  Until something comes out that's better than WoW or Rift, I won't preorder anything probably.  I'm still out on ESO, but that might break the streak.  From what I'm hearing, I'm liking the game more and more.  It's almost exactly what I thought it would be like back when I played oblivion or skyrim or any of the old TES games, "What if this game was an MMO!?!"

Best Game Ever? Highest game rated on Metacritic!

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2716

4/02/13 2:54:04 PM#25
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

 

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

 

I would say this is most true in the case of MMOs. Despite my being very critical of KS in terms of MMO development, I was a "standard" backer for the Wasteland2 SPG KS. Why? Because the developer, who made the original game, came out and said: "We need XX dollars to make the game to completion, if we get that, the game will be made in XX time. If we get more, we'll add more stuff." Check, no problem, I can support that. But most of these MMO KSs are pie in the sky attempts to raise "some revenue" to do "something". That sounds an awful lot like throwing money down a hole to me. No way a KS could raise full funding for anything resembling a "decent" MMO.
  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

4/02/13 2:56:00 PM#26
I guess people would rather pay for vaporware than an almost finished game.
  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1337

4/02/13 2:57:54 PM#27
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

You do realize that it is almost the same exact thing. Instead of them removing content they just havent added it yet. What is the difference when the end result is the same? The people that pre-order or in the case of KS contribute get something that other people who buy the game later on do not get. Same deal.

 

 In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

I believe that most people understand how KS works. The OP was simply asking why is one more acceptable to people than the other. I believe the answer to that is that through KS people believe they are actually making a difference. That they are going to be in on the ground floor of something great. With a pre-order the game is already made (as this poster said) your money or lack of will not stop that game from launching. With KS they feel that they are doing more than just buying the game. They are buying in to an idea that will in time become a reality. People love those kind of things. To say "I believed and invested in an idea that came to life" It is human nature. Humans are very linear and with something like KS it is easy to see that progression. From the begining concepts, to the actual development, to the finished product.

How much their dollars will actually effect the design of the game is all speculation. If the game ever reaches that point where it will launch is all speculation. To some it is worth the risk to others it's a "fool and his money are soon parted"

 

  Salemov

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 9

4/02/13 3:00:23 PM#28
preorder something made finished and u buy it. kickstart you helps someone make hes project a reality and get some bonus while you at it 
  zymurgeist

Elite Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5176

4/02/13 3:02:44 PM#29
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Burntvet
Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

 

You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

 Would you like to place a wager on that? They are "required" to make a good faith attempt. Any less would be fraud.  Kickstarter likes to say "Required" by which they mean they have a legally unenforceable policy. There is no actual contract between donors, not investors, not purchasers, and the company soliciting the contribution. Kickstarter goes out of their way to tell you after a project is funded they have no obligation to ensure the client carries through on their promises. If you feel you were cheated you have to sue and the burden of proof is yours.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6015

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

4/02/13 3:04:04 PM#30
Your mistaken with what a few might consider to be bad which doesn't make it bad, it just makes it that people do with their money what ever they feel like doing with it. I don't pre-order, but have nothing against those who do, same with kickstarter, which all best of luck who pledged on what ever game. In some cases I havn't seen/read enough to warant a pledge, some cases what I look for simply isn't on kickstarter.....yet...
  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

4/02/13 3:04:59 PM#31
Originally posted by SoulStain
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

 

In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

And with a Kickstarter the game may not be made even with your money. No guarantee at all. 

 

Except for, you know, the legal contract that everyone has to sign and adhere to, or they get sued out the ass.

You paranoid people who don't seem to like seeing good unique games being made should really take 4 seconds to look at what kickstarter is before you tear it apart.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

4/02/13 3:06:38 PM#32
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

Yeah.

 

Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

 

Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

 

http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

And those 41% that fail... no one payed a dime for. If a project fails, no one gets charged.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

4/02/13 3:07:33 PM#33
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Burntvet
Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

 

You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

Is he? so if the game doesn't turn out  as adverstised during kickstarter annoucement what do you do? get your money back or sue the company?

If he cannot prove that all the money he got from Kickstarter went into funding the game (dev salaries, evidence of work, ect) then he's in deep shit. So yes, he is.

He can still churn out a bad game and not get in trouble, that's where the risk comes in, but they do have to spend the money on the game.

  Doogiehowser

Elite Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1926

 
OP  4/02/13 3:08:31 PM#34
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SoulStain
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

 

In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

And with a Kickstarter the game may not be made even with your money. No guarantee at all. 

 

Except for, you know, the legal contract that everyone has to sign and adhere to, or they get sued out the ass.

You paranoid people who don't seem to like seeing good unique games being made should really take 4 seconds to look at what kickstarter is before you tear it apart.

Could you link to this contract which is legally binding? first time i am hearing of this.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4684

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/02/13 3:12:13 PM#35
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Burntvet
Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

 

You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

Is he? so if the game doesn't turn out  as adverstised during kickstarter annoucement what do you do? get your money back or sue the company?

 @Davis,

Not a chance.

If a company goes through kickstarter, and the game doesn't work out, they go to Chapter 11.  Bankruptcy proceedings would decide how to liquidate their assets if there are assets to liquidate and kickstarter may be a part of that.

Beyond that I would highly doubt anythine more could be done.

edit - of course you could sue, but that doesn't guarantee anything.

Interesting to note when you actually pledge something now you get this message, "Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. It is the responsibility of the project creator to complete their project as promised, and the claims of this project are theirs alone."

interesting article here:

http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/when-kickstarter-investors-want-their-money-back.html

It doesn't ever say whether the guy got his money back or not.  But the lawsuit did force quest to bankruptcy.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

4/02/13 3:12:20 PM#36
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SoulStain
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

 

In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

 

In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

And with a Kickstarter the game may not be made even with your money. No guarantee at all. 

 

Except for, you know, the legal contract that everyone has to sign and adhere to, or they get sued out the ass.

You paranoid people who don't seem to like seeing good unique games being made should really take 4 seconds to look at what kickstarter is before you tear it apart.

Could you link to this contract which is legally binding? first time i am hearing of this.

That's probably because you never bothered to find out what Kickstarter even is. And I'm not going to do your homework for you.

  Doogiehowser

Elite Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1926

 
OP  4/02/13 3:13:29 PM#37
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

That's probably because you never bothered to find out what Kickstarter even is. And I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Well for that this contract that is signed by everyone has to exist first no?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Liie

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 7

4/02/13 3:14:58 PM#38

I think its more based on if the Gamer is ready to dedicate him or her self to a game they expect to really be interesting to them. Like most things in life its a gamble. Remember every penny (Hopefully) goes back into making that game better thus making the gamer's experience more enjoyable.

  red_cruiser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 441

4/02/13 3:18:16 PM#39

All the successful kickstarters seem to be done by people who could go out and attract a lot of investors attention without having to  milk potential players for extra $$$.   Many if not all attract traditional investors while still milking players through kickstarter. You want to plunk down $500 bucks to "help a game get made", but I'm willing to bet those games are going to end up getting made one way or the other.  There are some people with some great ideas out there that need kickstarter; and some taking advantage of it.

When these big kickstarter games finally start getting finalized, or six years later it is still being worked on, you are going to see a lot of QQ.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

4/02/13 3:21:31 PM#40
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Burntvet
Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

 

You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

Is he? so if the game doesn't turn out  as adverstised during kickstarter annoucement what do you do? get your money back or sue the company?

 @Davis,

Not a chance.

If a company goes through kickstarter, and the game doesn't work out, they go to Chapter 11.  Bankruptcy proceedings would decide how to liquidate their assets if there are assets to liquidate and kickstarter may be a part of that.

Beyond that I would highly doubt anythine more could be done.

If they've spent the money on the development, they've held up their part of the bargain. That's why you have to be careful who you give money too. You CANNOT be scammed, but you CAN back someone who is incompetant. I've only backed well known tried and true developers before.

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