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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » James Ohlen on GDC, discussed SWTOR problems

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123 posts found
  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

3/30/13 4:26:50 AM#81
I like underdogs, SWTOR is an underdog; I don't trust statements from a guy who claims Bioware thought they had upwards of 5 months of content at launch. I also don't put much salt into claims of being the #2 sub based MMO, but then never release subscription numbers.

I honestly believe the game can only hold 100,000 people at a time, and those people may or may not be subscribers.

To a degree it is moot, because they are seeking higher revenue per player then a monthly subscription via the cartel market.

Whether this is working ot not, I will only know after Makeb if they continue to release meaningful content assuming EA lets them.

Just food for thought, EVE's highest concurent player percentage is documented at 17.7%.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1746

3/30/13 9:19:39 AM#82

Swtor is for me best game ever, matched only by wow. Enjoyed a lot also gw2, 3rd currently on my list. Imo of course.

I have no objections about swtor, nearly perfect game, bug free (except maybe pvp for which I care like for last year's snow) experience, great feeling to live in star wars universe, incredible dialogs and sometime though moral choices (sacricice old npc friend or innocent hostages), story line with really incredible twists (great jedi master being actually emperors "son"), ... etc etc. Never ever in my life have played and enjoyed any game for about 7 months strait. Even with wow, gw2, ... i usually need break after 3 or 4 months.

Well, support is bad, really bad. One have to wait for days to get some generalised answer that has nothing to do with what player asked. Fortunately not that I needed it a lot.

I think games should be or pve or pvp. Many games sink because at the end nearly every1 is disappointed being pve ruining pvp aspect or viceversa. Guess wow did it here best.

Big problem for swtor was not at all game or staff or ceo's.... but big problem that have sinked many other could be good games. Haters community. Never, with exception of wow, have seen so many haters hating and bashing game over and over and over and everywhere and everywhere ... Really disgusting.

  DaRoamer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 254

3/30/13 10:25:24 AM#83
Originally posted by tiefighter25
I like underdogs, SWTOR is an underdog; I don't trust statements from a guy who claims Bioware thought they had upwards of 5 months of content at launch. I also don't put much salt into claims of being the #2 sub based MMO, but then never release subscription numbers.

I honestly believe the game can only hold 100,000 people at a time, and those people may or may not be subscribers.

To a degree it is moot, because they are seeking higher revenue per player then a monthly subscription via the cartel market.

Whether this is working ot not, I will only know after Makeb if they continue to release meaningful content assuming EA lets them.

Just food for thought, EVE's highest concurent player percentage is documented at 17.7%.

Yet you used 20% as your average.

  altair4

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 159

3/30/13 10:26:16 AM#84

If thousands of new players try the game every day they are in worse shape than I thought. Server status and X-fire indicates that they still are dropping players and with that many new players per day they must be losing a huge amount of players aswell. Sure will mostly be F2P players but still. 

Also I think a big majority of the 2mil new accounts was created the first 2 weeks of F2P when the current population went up by 3-4 times and has since then almost reached the same low level it was before F2P.

So ye let's tell em the typical number twist to make it sound like it's going well when it's not...

  DaRoamer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 254

3/30/13 10:40:51 AM#85
Originally posted by altair4

If thousands of new players try the game every day they are in worse shape than I thought. Server status and X-fire indicates that they still are dropping players and with that many new players per day they must be losing a huge amount of players aswell. Sure will mostly be F2P players but still. 

Also I think a big majority of the 2mil new accounts was created the first 2 weeks of F2P when the current population went up by 3-4 times and has since then almost reached the same low level it was before F2P.

So ye let's tell em the typical number twist to make it sound like it's going well when it's not...

The same Xfire that shows them as the 3rd highest played MMO behind WoW and GW2?  Also, your other statements are completely false. 

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

3/30/13 11:08:51 AM#86
Speaking of math, how in the world can ANYONE play a game 120 hours in one week? There's only 168 hours in a week so that leaves only 48 hours(6-7 hours a days) to do other things like eat and sleep. Maybe  a lot of people had more free time over the Christmas holidays, but still that's a LOT of time sitting in front of a monitor. No wonder some people get burned out on games. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

3/30/13 11:31:54 AM#87
Originally posted by daltanious

Swtor is for me best game ever, matched only by wow. Enjoyed a lot also gw2, 3rd currently on my list. Imo of course.

I have no objections about swtor, nearly perfect game, bug free (except maybe pvp for which I care like for last year's snow) experience, great feeling to live in star wars universe, incredible dialogs and sometime though moral choices (sacricice old npc friend or innocent hostages), story line with really incredible twists (great jedi master being actually emperors "son"), ... etc etc. Never ever in my life have played and enjoyed any game for about 7 months strait. Even with wow, gw2, ... i usually need break after 3 or 4 months.

Well, support is bad, really bad. One have to wait for days to get some generalised answer that has nothing to do with what player asked. Fortunately not that I needed it a lot.

I think games should be or pve or pvp. Many games sink because at the end nearly every1 is disappointed being pve ruining pvp aspect or viceversa. Guess wow did it here best.

Big problem for swtor was not at all game or staff or ceo's.... but big problem that have sinked many other could be good games. Haters community. Never, with exception of wow, have seen so many haters hating and bashing game over and over and over and everywhere and everywhere ... Really disgusting.

Oh I've seen worse. November 2005 when the NGE patch hit SWG. This was just days after customers bought the latest expansion. Nothing will ever compare to the hate and disrepute leveled at SOE after that. And it went on for years. The current hate leveled at TOR is a tiny fraction of that though they are persistent. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/30/13 12:49:20 PM#88
Originally posted by tiefighter25
 I also don't put much salt into claims of being the #2 sub based MMO, but then never release subscription numbers.

 

well we know how much subs the #3 sub game has, so we at least have a floor for subs.  And that floor is a lot higher than people want to admit.

 

And its not hard to use math to make it believable

lets say the servers average 4500 at peak, that would be 7200.  Using a more realistic concurrency number of 10%, we have 720000.  If 2/3rds of those people are subbs you have 480k.  And in freemium games most regular players do sub, so 2/3rds isnt an unrealistic estimate for a game with a f2p model as restrcitive as SWTORs. 

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/30/13 12:51:11 PM#89
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by daltanious

Swtor is for me best game ever, matched only by wow. Enjoyed a lot also gw2, 3rd currently on my list. Imo of course.

I have no objections about swtor, nearly perfect game, bug free (except maybe pvp for which I care like for last year's snow) experience, great feeling to live in star wars universe, incredible dialogs and sometime though moral choices (sacricice old npc friend or innocent hostages), story line with really incredible twists (great jedi master being actually emperors "son"), ... etc etc. Never ever in my life have played and enjoyed any game for about 7 months strait. Even with wow, gw2, ... i usually need break after 3 or 4 months.

Well, support is bad, really bad. One have to wait for days to get some generalised answer that has nothing to do with what player asked. Fortunately not that I needed it a lot.

I think games should be or pve or pvp. Many games sink because at the end nearly every1 is disappointed being pve ruining pvp aspect or viceversa. Guess wow did it here best.

Big problem for swtor was not at all game or staff or ceo's.... but big problem that have sinked many other could be good games. Haters community. Never, with exception of wow, have seen so many haters hating and bashing game over and over and over and everywhere and everywhere ... Really disgusting.

Oh I've seen worse. November 2005 when the NGE patch hit SWG. This was just days after customers bought the latest expansion. Nothing will ever compare to the hate and disrepute leveled at SOE after that. And it went on for years. The current hate leveled at TOR is a tiny fraction of that though they are persistent. 

The funny thing is the SoE hate was directed at the wrong company...

That company is the one that probably told Bioware 'well give you the license if you make it very WoWlike"

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5207

3/30/13 1:08:57 PM#90
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by daltanious

Swtor is for me best game ever, matched only by wow. Enjoyed a lot also gw2, 3rd currently on my list. Imo of course.

I have no objections about swtor, nearly perfect game, bug free (except maybe pvp for which I care like for last year's snow) experience, great feeling to live in star wars universe, incredible dialogs and sometime though moral choices (sacricice old npc friend or innocent hostages), story line with really incredible twists (great jedi master being actually emperors "son"), ... etc etc. Never ever in my life have played and enjoyed any game for about 7 months strait. Even with wow, gw2, ... i usually need break after 3 or 4 months.

Well, support is bad, really bad. One have to wait for days to get some generalised answer that has nothing to do with what player asked. Fortunately not that I needed it a lot.

I think games should be or pve or pvp. Many games sink because at the end nearly every1 is disappointed being pve ruining pvp aspect or viceversa. Guess wow did it here best.

Big problem for swtor was not at all game or staff or ceo's.... but big problem that have sinked many other could be good games. Haters community. Never, with exception of wow, have seen so many haters hating and bashing game over and over and over and everywhere and everywhere ... Really disgusting.

Oh I've seen worse. November 2005 when the NGE patch hit SWG. This was just days after customers bought the latest expansion. Nothing will ever compare to the hate and disrepute leveled at SOE after that. And it went on for years. The current hate leveled at TOR is a tiny fraction of that though they are persistent. 

The funny thing is the SoE hate was directed at the wrong company...

That company is the one that probably told Bioware 'well give you the license if you make it very WoWlike"

The thing with the whole NGE business with SWG, is that it wasnt until much later that we found out what had gone on, and who was to blame, and although i still think SOE had a great deal of culpability, at the time all we could see was that SOE was totally ignoring all the feedback from the Test server about the NGE, and 'carrying on regardless' and even when they did launch it, it was barely even of Beta quality, it took years for them to patch it together and even when the game closed down for good, it still suffered from a rather large number of design flaws that were inherent in the NGE implementation. But at the time of the NGE it was Smedley and SOE that had their heads above the parapet so to speak, and the SWG community 'en masse' that was revolting against what they perceived to be the Evil Overlord that was SOE destroying their game.. even today, despite everything, SOE still has an image problem, us gamers arent all that forgiving, nor able to forget for that matter, though im surprised at how much flak LA and GL in particular, managed to avoid over the whole debacle..  a lesson there for any MMO developer to learn from, hopefully

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

3/30/13 1:53:03 PM#91
Originally posted by Phry

The thing with the whole NGE business with SWG, is that it wasnt until much later that we found out what had gone on, and who was to blame, and although i still think SOE had a great deal of culpability, at the time all we could see was that SOE was totally ignoring all the feedback from the Test server about the NGE, and 'carrying on regardless' and even when they did launch it, it was barely even of Beta quality, it took years for them to patch it together and even when the game closed down for good, it still suffered from a rather large number of design flaws that were inherent in the NGE implementation. But at the time of the NGE it was Smedley and SOE that had their heads above the parapet so to speak, and the SWG community 'en masse' that was revolting against what they perceived to be the Evil Overlord that was SOE destroying their game.. even today, despite everything, SOE still has an image problem, us gamers arent all that forgiving, nor able to forget for that matter, though im surprised at how much flak LA and GL in particular, managed to avoid over the whole debacle..  a lesson there for any MMO developer to learn from, hopefully

I'll never understand why they did it. Even if SWG was down to 300,000 subs(which is still good in my book), that's still $3.6 million dollars a year. Their overhead couldn't have been that massive with all the problems that never got resolved. They had to be making a profit with it. Their biggest problem was being able to come up with a game plan and sticking with it. 

Tor's biggest problems are the same ones that most thempeark games have:content. Any game that focuses on dev created content is going to have this problem. It's made even more difficult because TOR's design of 8 classes with a different male and female voice for each. At some point they're going to run into an issue like  the voice for female imperial agent not being available. What then?

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  User Deleted
3/30/13 1:59:55 PM#92

Problems for others, I can't say.  Problems for me... 1) spending tons of money on boring voice over storyline, 2) spending very little money on an unfinished engine and not optimizing it for performance.

 

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

3/30/13 9:35:30 PM#93

It was my mistake to bring up exact numbers.

The point I was trying to make is that FTP did not save SWTOR, subs buying in the cartel shop might.

James is throwing about statements of 2 million new accounts, 2nd biggest MMO, etc.

I would have replied sooner, but I thought the thread would be locked.

Apparently bringing up X-Fire, linking to it, and embeding screen shots is now OK if you are defending SWTOR's wilder statements.

The essence of what I was trying to convey is this, there is a finite space for all of this millions of new accounts to reside in.

Let's say the Mega servers can hold 12 thousand per server, that's still only a max congruent population of 204,000.

That's not a lot of sapce to cram in 500K+ subs and 2 million FTP accounts.

X-fire had SWTOR jump from 22 to 10 when FTP launched.

Since then it has slowly slipped back down to around 14.

Terra has passed SWTOR on the X-Fire chart for a while, and is now right behind it.

(Funny how I remember the X-Fire proves nothing threads from not so long ago.)

Also of note, the embeded XFire graph shows that the average SWTOR player (on double XP weekends) plays on average 5 hours a session.

If only we could go back in time and warn Bioware with this information.

Also to the one poster that said that we should assume two-thirds of all players are subs because the FTP system is so restrictive; I cannot make that leap in logic.

The game went  (restrictive) FTP and the population increased, therefore most new players are subscribers. I can't make that assumption at all, nor has EA released any sub numbers since ages and ages ago.

The game's population is not growing, it has been in a steady decline since FTP that only stopped when the double XP eekends began.

Revenue on the other hand, might be going up. Some people really like spending money on gambling packs.

As to the poster who commented on how low STO was on the x-fire chart, circa a year ago, that's what the SWTOR forums were saying about EVE.

  SBE1

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 339

3/30/13 11:14:46 PM#94

Look, this game is a huge flop from a financial point of view.  Most everyone on the project were fired, laid off, re-assigned, etc. It has many reasons for the flop.  Heck, the CEO had to resign a few days ago.

The good news is that if you enjoy the game (big if), then the cartel shop and their semi-free model have stopped the game from shutting down, for now.   I think that's the point of the presentation: to minimize fears that the game was going to be cancelled entirely, which was a real risk.  I mean, EA used to say that it would require 500,000 subs to be profitable.  I'd bet it's far less than that currently but with the reduced staff levels they can probably get by with maybe 250-300,000 or maybe even less if the cartel shop is really successful.

For the haters, the good news is that this financial disaster might actually stop MMOs from being developed with bad engines, high-expense PvE content that everyone burns through in 30-days, and MMO companies start to make exciting sand-box games. For me, the upside to the disaster of SWTOR makes me look forward to the future of upcoming MMO games.  I really doubt we'll see another AAA WoW clone for a long, long time.

  erictlewis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

3/31/13 7:44:53 AM#95

Well they are shutting down the apac servers and merging them up with the NA ones,  continued server mergers looks real bad.  

 

  pantaro

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/16/07
Posts: 33

3/31/13 7:54:55 AM#96
i watched all the cut scenes,did most of the quests and still hit 50 within the first week of launch.Like many have said they just didnt do their homework on MMO's.this is nothing new.
  LogicLester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 67

3/31/13 7:43:04 PM#97
Originally posted by erictlewis

Well they are shutting down the apac servers and merging them up with the NA ones,  continued server mergers looks real bad.  

 

There's really no choice, empty servers look worse.

 

Their solution pretty much sucks though.  I mean it is the "best" solution, but for Bioware, not for the APAC players.  The best solution for them would have been to merge APAC into one big pve server and give anyone from the pvp or rp servers a free transfer to a similar NA server.  But then they couldn't cut costs by shutting down operations over there, and would actually have to get off their collective butts and get server transfers working right now instead of some vague "soon" date.  So in their eyes, win/win.

  hikaru77

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 964

3/31/13 8:07:34 PM#98
Originally posted by tiefighter25

It was my mistake to bring up exact numbers.

The point I was trying to make is that FTP did not save SWTOR, subs buying in the cartel shop might.

James is throwing about statements of 2 million new accounts, 2nd biggest MMO, etc.

I would have replied sooner, but I thought the thread would be locked.

Apparently bringing up X-Fire, linking to it, and embeding screen shots is now OK if you are defending SWTOR's wilder statements.

The essence of what I was trying to convey is this, there is a finite space for all of this millions of new accounts to reside in.

Let's say the Mega servers can hold 12 thousand per server, that's still only a max congruent population of 204,000.

That's not a lot of sapce to cram in 500K+ subs and 2 million FTP accounts.

X-fire had SWTOR jump from 22 to 10 when FTP launched.

Since then it has slowly slipped back down to around 14.

Terra has passed SWTOR on the X-Fire chart for a while, and is now right behind it.

(Funny how I remember the X-Fire proves nothing threads from not so long ago.)

Also of note, the embeded XFire graph shows that the average SWTOR player (on double XP weekends) plays on average 5 hours a session.

If only we could go back in time and warn Bioware with this information.

Also to the one poster that said that we should assume two-thirds of all players are subs because the FTP system is so restrictive; I cannot make that leap in logic.

The game went  (restrictive) FTP and the population increased, therefore most new players are subscribers. I can't make that assumption at all, nor has EA released any sub numbers since ages and ages ago.

The game's population is not growing, it has been in a steady decline since FTP that only stopped when the double XP eekends began.

Revenue on the other hand, might be going up. Some people really like spending money on gambling packs.

As to the poster who commented on how low STO was on the x-fire chart, circa a year ago, that's what the SWTOR forums were saying about EVE.

You are not playing the game and sadly for you, you are just wrong, talk with the people who is actually playing the game or have a sub and maybe you find out the true state of game and how James Ohlen words are right in this case about the game. 

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

3/31/13 8:22:02 PM#99
Originally posted by daltanious

Big problem for swtor was not at all game or staff or ceo's.... but big problem that have sinked many other could be good games. Haters community. Never, with exception of wow, have seen so many haters hating and bashing game over and over and over and everywhere and everywhere ... Really disgusting.

What a load of bs.

This game going to f2p so quickly had nothing to do with the "hater community". I swear some of you will look to blame anything to try and justify why your game did not live up to the revenue potential some assumed it should.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

3/31/13 9:58:28 PM#100

I'm sorry. Apparently everything I said was wrong.

Here, here's another article reporting that SWTOR has 4.5 millon players!

http://www.pcgamesn.com/swtor/star-wars-old-republic-gaining-10000-new-players-every-day-going-free-play

IT MUST BE TRUE!

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