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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Will the real ESO please stand-up?

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252 posts found
  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/30/13 6:46:31 AM#101
WoW effectively killed the MMORPG genre by taking Everquest and expanding upon it with its good parts. Everyone is looking for the next universally played MMO in majority. I still think WoW is a good game in its current state, but everyones expectations are "I want to be addictted and play it for years" with every new MMO that comes out.
  impiro

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/09
Posts: 214

3/30/13 7:12:36 AM#102

This post makes a very easy case for itself with a  generalization of the users who do not like TESO's direction.

I do not like the TES games  in any way at all. Regardless of that I am very sceptical of the direction of TESO.

 

 

  Monstre0auS

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/12
Posts: 46

3/30/13 7:56:24 AM#103

I have argued for group Two before on several posts in this forum, and once even argued a means to an end for group One working (I'm talking the revised group one, not the OP's group One); and when the news of the concession from ZoS came I took a -LONG- breather away from anything related to discussing this game on the forums to allowed myself time to evaluate the reason why I was so adamant, that given the concession ZoS was going to allow, I was personally frustrated with it.

 

It wasn't the fact that there were people on this forum claiming a David vs. Goliath victory over the Devs/ZoS (although, Caliburn101, Sapphen- at one stage I believed this was the cause of my frustration, I took time away from this subject to avoid any emotionally charged, inflammatory remarks, as I know you both prefer proper discourse).

 

It wasn't the fact that I foresaw the opportunity for ZoS to 'pin the blame' on the community at large, stating They 'gave Us what we wanted' on any loss of momentum in delivering a final product, or if in giving a concession to ease the fans ruined aspects of lore or gameplay, ie: "You wanted to be able to travel to that faction, now you're complaining that it's ruining immersion, it's YOUR fault".

 

No, in the end, the thing that annoyed me most about this sudden abrupt change to the design of the game, in allowing people to cross borders and now potentially being able to form cross faction groups, is that when I read up on this game several months ago; NONE OF THAT was the established design of the game. There was no concession, there was no cross faction grouping, this has all come so suddenly that it's conflicting with what I was excited for..

 

I actually got excited at the prospect of being in a faction at war. I didn't even care for the PvP element, I'm a PvE'r at heart, and I've never played DAoC-- I was genuinely looking forward to the way they portrayed a world embroiled in mass conflict, the way that your race would interact with oppossing races (espionage, internment camps, etc), the way that your race played politics within it's own faction to vie for outright faction control. That potential for political intrigue piqued my curiosity and had me semi-hooked at a glance. Now when I look at the game, I have to remind myself to forget that this was an element to begin with.

 

I'm all for studios making a design decision to allow for form to follow function: but when it's done at the 11th hour as a form of appeasement to the loyalists, I can't help but reach for the stress ball hoping, that the implementation is as well thought out as the decision to listen to the fans.

  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 671

3/30/13 8:24:15 AM#104

An Indy game or kickstarter, can follow its own vision without compromise.  This is Elder Scrolls.  The good thing about being able to spend tons of money is you can add features lesser mmos couldn't have, like being fully voiced acted.

The down side is you end up spending so much money, you need a lot of people buying your box and a lot of people staying around spending money in your shop, so the game has to have a broad appeal.  This prevents to much risk taking or focusing to much on one play style.

Probably the next mmo to really strike it big will be a kickstarter or indy, because it will be the game that took the risk and found the philosopher's stone.

The big money mmos will continue to fail to live up to their own hype or hold the interest of a large playerbase for very long.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17203

3/30/13 10:15:44 AM#105
Originally posted by Cochran1

 

 If they allow the players to choose race and then faction, there wouldn't be a need for them to add the lvl cap faction unlocks. Players could then choose the race they want and still be able to play with their freinds who choose a different race.

Which of course goes along with the central current Elder Scxrolls idea which is "choice'.

So sure, Quallidexz is technically right. If they take a large wad of gum place it in Tamriel they can call it Elder Scrolls. It's their IP.

They can make a game that is essentially "The S.I.M.S" but have the entire thing placed in Tamriel using all teh standard locations and it would be an Elder Scrolls Game.

But, given the evolution that the elder scrolls games have had, all of that would seem, from a design decision, highly out of place.

If for some reason I watch a weekly sitcom and one night there is a "very special episode" where one of the main characters tortures and brutally murders another main character, one could say "it's their story they can do what they want'. And this would be true except it would be highly out of place for what a sitcom is about.

The Elder Scrolls games have evolved into choice. Tood Howard goes on about this repeatedly in all the Skyrim interviews.

Choice.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17203

3/30/13 10:23:42 AM#106
Originally posted by Iselin

The game is designed around a 3-sided war. Wars are not nice. They are brutal and bloody. Do you think in WW2 a Londoner could go to Berlin on holidays to visit friends?

 

You bring up a very good point and I agree with you there. However, a Londoner could make the dangerous journey into the heart of germany to bring supplies or help with getting people out.

Making the trip to another faction's side and having that trip be highly dangerous is fine by me. But of course there are players who wouldn't like that.

  CthulhuPuffs

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 379

Will consume your soul, yet stay crunchy in milk

3/30/13 10:43:52 AM#107
Originally posted by hMJem
WoW effectively killed the MMORPG genre by taking Everquest and expanding upon it with its good parts. Everyone is looking for the next universally played MMO in majority. I still think WoW is a good game in its current state, but everyones expectations are "I want to be addictted and play it for years" with every new MMO that comes out.

Isnt that kind of strange? We are actually ASKING for something to be addictive

Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

Games Played: Too Many

  CthulhuPuffs

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 379

Will consume your soul, yet stay crunchy in milk

3/30/13 10:52:38 AM#108
The way Zenimax is taking The Elder Scrolls and making TESO reminds me of the way Hollywood takes an old favorite Cartoon Series from my childhood and turns it into some lame CGI Live Action Movie.

Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

Games Played: Too Many

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 11:48:43 AM#109
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
The way Zenimax is taking The Elder Scrolls and making TESO reminds me of the way Hollywood takes an old favorite Cartoon Series from my childhood and turns it into some lame CGI Live Action Movie.

I disagree, but if you enjoy false nostalgic recollections over facts, then so be it.

 

This isn't Skyrim online, so if I were you I would hold off and wait for that game.  This game will be immensenly popular for what it is, an MMO.  So if you can't handle that, or don't understand what an MMO is, then I suggest you just hold out for Skyrim online and not even waste your time on this game.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3798

 
OP  3/30/13 12:49:00 PM#110
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Iselin

The game is designed around a 3-sided war. Wars are not nice. They are brutal and bloody. Do you think in WW2 a Londoner could go to Berlin on holidays to visit friends?

 

You bring up a very good point and I agree with you there. However, a Londoner could make the dangerous journey into the heart of germany to bring supplies or help with getting people out.

Making the trip to another faction's side and having that trip be highly dangerous is fine by me. But of course there are players who wouldn't like that.

Oh I agree with you. When I played DAoC I was part of a group there who was constantly asking devs to expand the RvR to include forays into the enemy lands...maybe even siege their capital cities. All that was available in the full PvP DAoC servers of course. But that was just a chaotic and messy gankfest environment.

The thing I've always liked about RvR is the potential for organization and executing complex plans...before I was an RPGer I was a wargamer... I think that still shows :) I don't like mindless duels or e-sport quickie scenario PvP but I love large set-piece battles.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3798

 
OP  3/30/13 12:52:10 PM#111
Originally posted by Monstre0auS

I have argued for group Two before on several posts in this forum, and once even argued a means to an end for group One working (I'm talking the revised group one, not the OP's group One); and when the news of the concession from ZoS came I took a -LONG- breather away from anything related to discussing this game on the forums to allowed myself time to evaluate the reason why I was so adamant, that given the concession ZoS was going to allow, I was personally frustrated with it.

 

It wasn't the fact that there were people on this forum claiming a David vs. Goliath victory over the Devs/ZoS (although, Caliburn101, Sapphen- at one stage I believed this was the cause of my frustration, I took time away from this subject to avoid any emotionally charged, inflammatory remarks, as I know you both prefer proper discourse).

 

It wasn't the fact that I foresaw the opportunity for ZoS to 'pin the blame' on the community at large, stating They 'gave Us what we wanted' on any loss of momentum in delivering a final product, or if in giving a concession to ease the fans ruined aspects of lore or gameplay, ie: "You wanted to be able to travel to that faction, now you're complaining that it's ruining immersion, it's YOUR fault".

 

No, in the end, the thing that annoyed me most about this sudden abrupt change to the design of the game, in allowing people to cross borders and now potentially being able to form cross faction groups, is that when I read up on this game several months ago; NONE OF THAT was the established design of the game. There was no concession, there was no cross faction grouping, this has all come so suddenly that it's conflicting with what I was excited for..

 

I actually got excited at the prospect of being in a faction at war. I didn't even care for the PvP element, I'm a PvE'r at heart, and I've never played DAoC-- I was genuinely looking forward to the way they portrayed a world embroiled in mass conflict, the way that your race would interact with oppossing races (espionage, internment camps, etc), the way that your race played politics within it's own faction to vie for outright faction control. That potential for political intrigue piqued my curiosity and had me semi-hooked at a glance. Now when I look at the game, I have to remind myself to forget that this was an element to begin with.

 

I'm all for studios making a design decision to allow for form to follow function: but when it's done at the 11th hour as a form of appeasement to the loyalists, I can't help but reach for the stress ball hoping, that the implementation is as well thought out as the decision to listen to the fans.

Good post Monstre.

Radical changes in development plans that are contrary to the intitally promoted vision always worry me. Not just here but in the countless other MMOs that have done that in the past. It shows a lack of commitment...that never ends well.

  CthulhuPuffs

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 379

Will consume your soul, yet stay crunchy in milk

3/30/13 2:11:40 PM#112
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
The way Zenimax is taking The Elder Scrolls and making TESO reminds me of the way Hollywood takes an old favorite Cartoon Series from my childhood and turns it into some lame CGI Live Action Movie.

I disagree, but if you enjoy false nostalgic recollections over facts, then so be it.

 

This isn't Skyrim online, so if I were you I would hold off and wait for that game.  This game will be immensenly popular for what it is, an MMO.  So if you can't handle that, or don't understand what an MMO is, then I suggest you just hold out for Skyrim online and not even waste your time on this game.

You dont agree with me fine. Doesnt make my opinion any less valid.

So mind to your own opinion and dont tell me what I should understand or suggest to me what I should or shouldnt do.

Talk about the game. Not what YOU think of MY opinion of it

Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

Games Played: Too Many

  Anakami

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 101

3/30/13 2:27:48 PM#113

Interesting post, though i think the groups are more diverse than the 2 you described. On an individual level there is even more diversity among the people here on this forum and what they think and want of TESO.

Just to give an example: I am an Elder Scrolls Fan who would like to see them get as close to the ES games as possible. That also means no race locked factions, open borders in the PvE part and communication between the races.

I am also a PvPer because this is my main occupation aside from the PvE part which I occasionally do and enjoy, but I am not much of a quester and travel the PvE world rather for RP reasons and the flair. So I want them to have a olid PvP game with good mechanics. I think they have that, but not for the price of so many restrictions in the PvE part, especially not if this goes against what I appreciate about the ES setting. Imo they can have both, a good PvP setting and a good ES PvE game, but I suppose that depends on where and how you get your motivation for PvP and that elusive faction pride.

I am also a long time DAoC fan. Played it since Beta, roamed the RvR zones as soon as I could and still consider DAoC one of my favorite games of all times, both for PvP and for PvE. So naturally I was excited to hear that they will use their knowledge of DAoC to bring a great PvP system to a franchise I love, but then I found out that the whole game was built around PvP and that the PvE part had to suffer a lot of restrictions. I wouldn't be bothered in the least if this were DAoC 2 or any other setting where a war between 3 factions composed of 3 races each makes sense. In TES, imo, it does not.

That's the reason why I am so disappointed. I see no issue of designing the game so that it plays to the strength of the IP AND employing a great PvP mechanic.

PS: Forgot one. I am also a RolePlayer and that's my main interest in the pvE part of ESO tbh. I just want to hang out with others in my favorite territories of Tamriel and socialize, have a good time RPing and maybe doing some stuff once in a while. Restricted to 3 races, not being able to play withmy friends who all like different races that are in other factions, and also no communication between the races, it kinda kills the RP and immersion right at the start.

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 3:02:26 PM#114
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
The way Zenimax is taking The Elder Scrolls and making TESO reminds me of the way Hollywood takes an old favorite Cartoon Series from my childhood and turns it into some lame CGI Live Action Movie.

I disagree, but if you enjoy false nostalgic recollections over facts, then so be it.

 

This isn't Skyrim online, so if I were you I would hold off and wait for that game.  This game will be immensenly popular for what it is, an MMO.  So if you can't handle that, or don't understand what an MMO is, then I suggest you just hold out for Skyrim online and not even waste your time on this game.

You dont agree with me fine. Doesnt make my opinion any less valid.

So mind to your own opinion and dont tell me what I should understand or suggest to me what I should or shouldnt do.

Talk about the game. Not what YOU think of MY opinion of it

Your analogy was bad.

  Sentnl

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 79

3/30/13 3:11:08 PM#115

I hope half you realise that you're speaking nonsense...

WoW came from the warcraft series, were they alike!? I couldn't build any barracks...

Warhammer came from a miniature game, I couldn't roll any physical dice, oh my god!

Swtor came from a fictional story, believe it or not... etc.

THIS IS NOT THE SINGLE PLAYER GAME YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

Let it be ffs, let it become it's own entity, dont disturb it. If you're lucky enough to also get a beta key, you can come help send feedback on its great features.

I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3187

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/30/13 3:18:47 PM#116


Originally posted by Iselin
Good post Monstre.

Radical changes in development plans that are contrary to the intitally promoted vision always worry me. Not just here but in the countless other MMOs that have done that in the past. It shows a lack of commitment...that never ends well.



I agree 100%. I believe that developers should stick to their vision for their games. Not everyone has to play their games, nor will they.

My opinions are NOT to change the game. I don't expect, nor want that. It is much, much too late for that. My main gripes center around AvAvA, the base mechanic of the whole game. Not gonna change. My posts are more for if (not when) TES:O fails or underperforms maybe the developers may have a clue as to why.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3798

 
OP  3/30/13 3:31:50 PM#117
Originally posted by Anakami

Interesting post, though i think the groups are more diverse than the 2 you described. On an individual level there is even more diversity among the people here on this forum and what they think and want of TESO.

Just to give an example: I am an Elder Scrolls Fan who would like to see them get as close to the ES games as possible. That also means no race locked factions, open borders in the PvE part and communication between the races.

I am also a PvPer because this is my main occupation aside from the PvE part which I occasionally do and enjoy, but I am not much of a quester and travel the PvE world rather for RP reasons and the flair. So I want them to have a olid PvP game with good mechanics. I think they have that, but not for the price of so many restrictions in the PvE part, especially not if this goes against what I appreciate about the ES setting. Imo they can have both, a good PvP setting and a good ES PvE game, but I suppose that depends on where and how you get your motivation for PvP and that elusive faction pride.

I am also a long time DAoC fan. Played it since Beta, roamed the RvR zones as soon as I could and still consider DAoC one of my favorite games of all times, both for PvP and for PvE. So naturally I was excited to hear that they will use their knowledge of DAoC to bring a great PvP system to a franchise I love, but then I found out that the whole game was built around PvP and that the PvE part had to suffer a lot of restrictions. I wouldn't be bothered in the least if this were DAoC 2 or any other setting where a war between 3 factions composed of 3 races each makes sense. In TES, imo, it does not.

That's the reason why I am so disappointed. I see no issue of designing the game so that it plays to the strength of the IP AND employing a great PvP mechanic.

PS: Forgot one. I am also a RolePlayer and that's my main interest in the pvE part of ESO tbh. I just want to hang out with others in my favorite territories of Tamriel and socialize, have a good time RPing and maybe doing some stuff once in a while. Restricted to 3 races, not being able to play withmy friends who all like different races that are in other factions, and also no communication between the races, it kinda kills the RP and immersion right at the start.

Well you sound very much like me and your interests are very similar to mine. I always play in RP servers although I'm not a HC RPer. I do want enough of it that it enhances immersion though: appropriate names, etc. Also RP servers tend to attract a more intelligent sort...but that could just be my bias :)

I was a Theurgist in the Albion side of Guinevere in DaoC right from the very beginning and for several years after that. It is still my favorite MMO. I am also a big TES and Bethesda fan. My first Bethesda game wasn't even a TES game: it was their Gretzky Hockey they released for the Atari way back in 1988. It was the first attempt by anyone to make a statistics-driven hockey simulation and it was pretty good at that. The graphics were from an overhead perspective: basically a helmet with a hockey stick lol, but I enjoyed it. I've also played all their TES games and enjoyed them immensely.

I am honestly dumbfounded about the reaction in these forums to the faction lock. I'm specially critical of those who say it as if it was self-evident... it isn't. Not only do I not find it inconsistent with the world of Tamriel and it's lore, I actually think it's a very good thing that fosters a strong comunity with those who will be at your side on the battlefield. I really don't understand what the objections are so naturally, I'm suspicious of them. I'm suspicious that what some want is a PvE-centric MMO...yet another one. And of course I'm influenced by having lived the DAoC realm lock system. I consider it entirely plausible for DAoC to have spawned some single player games in a different time frame when the 3 sides were not at war... in those games you could have gone anywhere... The reverse scenario to what is happening here.

As to the 2 choices (3 really but I didn't highlight the 1 + 2 choice as a virtual #3 too much) of course its an oversimplification. But imho, a good summary of the two camps who are frequently at war here.

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 3:40:29 PM#118
Originally posted by Cochran1
Originally posted by Sentnl
Originally posted by Cochran1
Originally posted by GreenWidow

Boggles my mind why everyone refuses to see the obvious solution.

Even the OP missed the whole point of the majority of what they call group 1.

 

Most people I've spoken to that agree with me this is NOT a TES game in anything other than name say the same thing.

 

They want EVERYTHING group 1 wants AND EVERYTHING group 2 wants.

AND THEY COULD DO THIS!!!!!!

They have chosen NOT to.

 

3 faction warfare...based on houses not race.

No land locks.  No classes, skill based advancement just like the games.

NO restriction on content level based or otherwise.

Make the game with everything everyone wants.  This is not hard to do...the moronic DaoC jerkoff in charge just refuses to accept that it COULD be done.

And the above game would be much more satisfying to everyone in groups 1 and 2 than what they are making now.  As of now nobody is really happy.  That's what most games I've seen in the past decade have done...and failed because of.

WoW is the only acception and the reasons why have been beaten to death WITH a dead horse on these forums.

 The only thing I would want different is the warfare, make it multi-faction warfare based on allegiance which players can choose. If you decide not to choose a faction then you can merc yourself to any faction anytime you want.

I guess you didn't play gw2, where titan alliance on HoD made a player allegiance and destroyed the wvw scene, forced hundreds if not thousands of transfers and potentially ruined the game...

If you let players make cross faction allegiances... you would end up with a huge blob that just murdered the tiny minority.

Stop being a moron, just get all your friends on one faction.

 Once again someone doesn't agree so they resort to condescention and name calling.

I'm talking about multiple hard coded fations in the game in which people get to initially choose and stick with, not cross faction alliegences where players use vent to coordinate and exploit the game mechanics.

*Justified condensation and name calling, lol.

Your idea is terribad.  This isn't the role playing 90's! 

 

What exploits?  Game isn't even out...

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 3:44:16 PM#119
Originally posted by Sentnl

I hope half you realise that you're speaking nonsense...

WoW came from the warcraft series, were they alike!? I couldn't build any barracks...

Warhammer came from a miniature game, I couldn't roll any physical dice, oh my god!

Swtor came from a fictional story, believe it or not... etc.

THIS IS NOT THE SINGLE PLAYER GAME YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

Let it be ffs, let it become it's own entity, dont disturb it. If you're lucky enough to also get a beta key, you can come help send feedback on its great features.

 

SIR DO NOT COME IN HERE WITH YOUR 3rd GRADE SKILL LEVEL LOGIC.  CAN'T YOU SEE WE ARE HAVING A WHINE AND CRACKER FEST HERE?  WE DO NOT NEEDYOU TO  SQUAT AND PLANT A BIG OL' TURD IN OUR WHINE BOWL SIR.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3187

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/30/13 4:01:44 PM#120


Originally posted by Sentnl
I hope half you realise that you're speaking nonsense...

WoW came from the warcraft series, were they alike!? I couldn't build any barracks...

Warhammer came from a miniature game, I couldn't roll any physical dice, oh my god!

Swtor came from a fictional story, believe it or not... etc.

THIS IS NOT THE SINGLE PLAYER GAME YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

Let it be ffs, let it become it's own entity, dont disturb it. If you're lucky enough to also get a beta key, you can come help send feedback on its great features.



Some change will occur. That is inevitable. Nobody will be The Nerevarine or Dohvakiin. Not one of *my* expectations.

Your examples were nothing but petulant flame-bait. You took the most absurd things you could think of and tried to compare them to legitimate concerns. Are you really that stupid to believe what you wrote has any validity?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

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