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General Discussion  » James Ohlen on GDC, discussed SWTOR problems

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123 posts found
  User Deleted
3/29/13 4:25:39 AM#41
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by tintilinic

Endgame was and is lackluster. Most people i played with (pre launch guild around 200 strong) most people (90%+) quit because there was nothing to at endgame BUT operations and taking alts through 90%+ of same leveling content didnt appeal to many at all.

Its not worth paying 15$ to log in twice a week for few hours to do operations (EV and KP).

No, it wasnt lack of operations, it was lack of anything else.

Agree & Same thing here. Watched literally hundreds of players and 3 guilds die.

The amazing thing to me is that they (Bioware) seem to be immune to learning.

Dont think its lack of ability to learn, more of a lack of manpower to do much at all now....small team and all.

And its not (wasnt) much BW in it al all, opposed to what many say BW hired a lot of "experienced devs" on high positions. And they all sang same song.

For instance, they praised they had Mythic on board for PvP. And what did we get? Ilum. Hows that BWs fault?

Thats the paradox of it: lot of experienced people in charge, 200-300m budget, strongest IP managed to produce.....SWTOR.

And James Ohlen is Project Manager. He doesnt (didnt) design the game. Those "experienced devs" do (did).

  DeniZg

Elite Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 436

3/29/13 4:32:52 AM#42
Originally posted by observer

He's still clueless.  It wasn't the rush to max level that caused players to leave.  It was the core concept design.  I still believe the UI, the traveling system, and the restricted zone areas were the main reasons players hated swtor.  It was such a pain in the ass having to get anywhere.  Add to the fact, that the fleet pass was on a 24 hour cooldown.  What the hell where they thinking?  In most MMOs, it's around an hour cooldown.  Want to explore? Too bad, because there's an artificial barrier blocking you.  Max level content wasn't the problem, and they still don't realize it.  I hate to say it, but i hope this MMO closes down, so it frees up the star wars IP for the next generation movies, and hopefully we'll get a better MMO based on those.

edit: I almost forgot to add, that Alt Replayability was another major factor.  It forced everyone through the same stories from 1-10 if they wanted to try another class, that shared the same hierarchial class.  This was very unfriendly to alts.

Absolutely this.

Artificial barrieres to compensate for lack of leveling content, zero replayability, graphical engine issues, lack of social features...I could go on and fill the entire page with flaws.

James Ohlen is most likely lying, since i can't believe that anybody could be so much disconnected from reality.

Anyway, it's interesting to observe the SWTOR phenomena and many developers could (hopefully) learn so much from it.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

3/29/13 4:33:33 AM#43
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by tintilinic

Endgame was and is lackluster. Most people i played with (pre launch guild around 200 strong) most people (90%+) quit because there was nothing to at endgame BUT operations and taking alts through 90%+ of same leveling content didnt appeal to many at all.

Its not worth paying 15$ to log in twice a week for few hours to do operations (EV and KP).

No, it wasnt lack of operations, it was lack of anything else.

Agree & Same thing here. Watched literally hundreds of players and 3 guilds die.

The amazing thing to me is that they (Bioware) seem to be immune to learning.

Dont think its lack of ability to learn, more of a lack of manpower to do much at all now....small team and all.

And its not (wasnt) much BW in it al all, opposed to what many say BW hired a lot of "experienced devs" on high positions. And they all sang same song.

For instance, they praised they had Mythic on board for PvP. And what did we get? Ilum. Hows that BWs fault?

Thats the paradox of it: lot of experienced people in charge, 200-300m budget, strongest IP managed to produce.....SWTOR.

Ok let's just consolidate the blame to "they." The clusterfuck armada over there have produced a giant disappointment through a synthesis of can't, won't, don't know, and working as intended. There has been ample feedback in the form of lost subs, bad press, generation after generation of players leaving over continued fail decisions.

There is no apology or reform, so fuck em.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  User Deleted
3/29/13 4:40:46 AM#44
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by tintilinic

Endgame was and is lackluster. Most people i played with (pre launch guild around 200 strong) most people (90%+) quit because there was nothing to at endgame BUT operations and taking alts through 90%+ of same leveling content didnt appeal to many at all.

Its not worth paying 15$ to log in twice a week for few hours to do operations (EV and KP).

No, it wasnt lack of operations, it was lack of anything else.

Agree & Same thing here. Watched literally hundreds of players and 3 guilds die.

The amazing thing to me is that they (Bioware) seem to be immune to learning.

Dont think its lack of ability to learn, more of a lack of manpower to do much at all now....small team and all.

And its not (wasnt) much BW in it al all, opposed to what many say BW hired a lot of "experienced devs" on high positions. And they all sang same song.

For instance, they praised they had Mythic on board for PvP. And what did we get? Ilum. Hows that BWs fault?

Thats the paradox of it: lot of experienced people in charge, 200-300m budget, strongest IP managed to produce.....SWTOR.

Ok let's just consolidate the blame to "they." The clusterfuck armada over there have produced a giant disappointment through a synthesis of can't, won't, don't know, and working as intended. There has been ample feedback in the form of lost subs, bad press, generation after generation of players leaving over continued fail decisions.

There is no apology or reform, so fuck em.

Thtas just a fact for those who say  "they should have hired experienced people and put them in high positions". Thats exactly what they did.

To me it seems they didnt have enough "outside people" to bring in fresh ideas, but "experienced devs" with stale outdated (2004) views on things. MMOs and players have changed since then.

They all screwed up. BW for not realizing that devs are designing outdated game and devs for having zero fresh ideas.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

3/29/13 4:47:09 AM#45
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by tintilinic

Endgame was and is lackluster. Most people i played with (pre launch guild around 200 strong) most people (90%+) quit because there was nothing to at endgame BUT operations and taking alts through 90%+ of same leveling content didnt appeal to many at all.

Its not worth paying 15$ to log in twice a week for few hours to do operations (EV and KP).

No, it wasnt lack of operations, it was lack of anything else.

Agree & Same thing here. Watched literally hundreds of players and 3 guilds die.

The amazing thing to me is that they (Bioware) seem to be immune to learning.

Dont think its lack of ability to learn, more of a lack of manpower to do much at all now....small team and all.

And its not (wasnt) much BW in it al all, opposed to what many say BW hired a lot of "experienced devs" on high positions. And they all sang same song.

For instance, they praised they had Mythic on board for PvP. And what did we get? Ilum. Hows that BWs fault?

Thats the paradox of it: lot of experienced people in charge, 200-300m budget, strongest IP managed to produce.....SWTOR.

Ok let's just consolidate the blame to "they." The clusterfuck armada over there have produced a giant disappointment through a synthesis of can't, won't, don't know, and working as intended. There has been ample feedback in the form of lost subs, bad press, generation after generation of players leaving over continued fail decisions.

There is no apology or reform, so fuck em.

Thtas just a fact for those who say  "they should have hired experienced people and put them in high positions". Thats exactly what they did.

To me it seems they didnt have enough "outside people" to bring in fresh ideas, but "experienced devs" with stale outdated (2004) views on things. MMOs and players have changed since then.

I see what youre saying. I agree. The echo chamber consumed them all I guess.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

 
OP  3/29/13 4:50:08 AM#46
Originally posted by observer

 It wasn't the rush to max level that caused players to leave.  It was the core concept design.  I still believe the UI, the traveling system, and the restricted zone areas were the main reasons players hated swtor.  It was such a pain in the ass having to get anywhere.  Add to the fact, that the fleet pass was on a 24 hour cooldown.  What the hell where they thinking?  In most MMOs, it's around an hour cooldown.  Want to explore? Too bad, because there's an artificial barrier blocking you.  Max level content wasn't the problem, and they still don't realize it.  I hate to say it, but i hope this MMO closes down, so it frees up the star wars IP for the next generation movies, and hopefully we'll get a better MMO based on those.

edit: I almost forgot to add, that Alt Replayability was another major factor.  It forced everyone through the same stories from 1-10 if they wanted to try another class, that shared the same hierarchial class.  This was very unfriendly to alts.

^this

 

It was "kinda" fun the first time through, but already the last 10 level dragged, going through the same static type of planets.

This game is missing mechanics and things to do while leveling to get immersed into the world. Had two alts, didn´t even play a single operation, so "missing endgame" wasn´t my problem. None of my guild mates quit because of "no endgame". In the first week we were even thinking when we reach lvl 50 and planet Ilum, this will be a gigantic open sandbox planet with awesome things to do.

Game should have been more KOTOR and more SWG.

 

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Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
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  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 977

3/29/13 3:00:50 PM#47
Originally posted by tiefighter25

I don't think he is being entirely truthful.

Certainly very selective.

Subs started to go up again - between November and December as per your second link (http://www.edge-online.com/features/gdc-2013-star-wars-the-old-republics-difficult-launch-and-its-free-to-play-switch/ )  Like saying subs are going up kust after a game launches. Game goes f2p, lots of folk try it and, no surprise, some of them become subscribers - and given that the game will have had very few new subscribers in the months prior to going f2p no big deal. 

Much more telling he didn't talk about January, February and March.  EA announced that subs for WAR had gone up just after Christmas post launch. When EA released numbers as part of their quarterly results ...  subs had not gone up.

 

Content: his statements suggested that either they were clueless, delusional, had no testing, didn't listen to their testers, didn't read (or believe) any forums expessing concern about the lack of content, or were just been plain dishonest when they suggested it would take 200 hours and 5 months (an average of just over  hour per day).  Maybe all of the above.

And given the lack of significant additional content is he suggesting there has been "very little" extra content since the game launched. Is Olsen suggesting that all these new subscribers have stuck around - in a way that the original subscribers didn't?

And is he suggesting that the game has been "sufficiently fixed" to hold onto all these new subscribers? Sure there has been some new content but it is woefully inadequate to provide 200 hours / 5 months of play for all these new subscribers.  I hope he doesn't believe it if that is what he is trying to suggest.

In fact reading it again my impression is that: at launch we didn't know how subscription based games work and now we have no idea how f2p games work.

 

  DeniZg

Elite Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 436

3/29/13 3:24:23 PM#48

These guys at EA/Bioware are setting new standards for arrogancy and incompetence. Why you ask?

Well, first they blame the casual players for their failure and now they blame the hardcore? Who's next I wonder? 

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

3/29/13 3:33:28 PM#49
Originally posted by gervaise1
Originally posted by tiefighter25

I don't think he is being entirely truthful.

Certainly very selective.

Subs started to go up again - between November and December as per your second link (http://www.edge-online.com/features/gdc-2013-star-wars-the-old-republics-difficult-launch-and-its-free-to-play-switch/ )  Like saying subs are going up kust after a game launches. Game goes f2p, lots of folk try it and, no surprise, some of them become subscribers - and given that the game will have had very few new subscribers in the months prior to going f2p no big deal. 

Much more telling he didn't talk about January, February and March.  EA announced that subs for WAR had gone up just after Christmas post launch. When EA released numbers as part of their quarterly results ...  subs had not gone up.

 

Content: his statements suggested that either they were clueless, delusional, had no testing, didn't listen to their testers, didn't read (or believe) any forums expessing concern about the lack of content, or were just been plain dishonest when they suggested it would take 200 hours and 5 months (an average of just over  hour per day).  Maybe all of the above.

And given the lack of significant additional content is he suggesting there has been "very little" extra content since the game launched. Is Olsen suggesting that all these new subscribers have stuck around - in a way that the original subscribers didn't?

And is he suggesting that the game has been "sufficiently fixed" to hold onto all these new subscribers? Sure there has been some new content but it is woefully inadequate to provide 200 hours / 5 months of play for all these new subscribers.  I hope he doesn't believe it if that is what he is trying to suggest.

In fact reading it again my impression is that: at launch we didn't know how subscription based games work and now we have no idea how f2p games work.

 

It is kind of odd when you put together his statements that the P2P iteration failed because there wasn't enough content (about 1 month according to him) so for the F2P iteration of the game, we fixed that by adding even less content?

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

3/29/13 4:10:41 PM#50

If you watch that guy talk, you get the feeling there is an earpiece in his ear, and someone outside the room is feeding him answers.

My guess is that it's the same person who feeds lines to the Wormtongue-like co-host from the Republic show on Gamebreaker, Larry Everett.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  DaRoamer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 252

3/29/13 4:34:37 PM#51
Originally posted by gervaise1
Originally posted by tiefighter25

I don't think he is being entirely truthful.

Certainly very selective.

Subs started to go up again - between November and December as per your second link (http://www.edge-online.com/features/gdc-2013-star-wars-the-old-republics-difficult-launch-and-its-free-to-play-switch/ )  Like saying subs are going up kust after a game launches. Game goes f2p, lots of folk try it and, no surprise, some of them become subscribers - and given that the game will have had very few new subscribers in the months prior to going f2p no big deal.

 

The spin is strong with this one.  From the massively article:

"When free-to-play launched in November, it "blew all expectations out of the water," said Ohlen. Subscriptions started going up again. Concurrent players on the servers went way up. Both of those statistics continue to rise."

I know this is painful news for many of the people on this forum who desperately want the game to fail.

  dead2soon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/11
Posts: 151

3/29/13 4:36:23 PM#52
Didn't the SWTOR dev goup put on a big pay for "How to Develop Successful MMO's" seminar? Wonder if those people got refunds.
  superniceguy

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2227

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

3/29/13 6:24:39 PM#53

It is quite quck getting through the content in SWTOR as the combat is quite easy, you can get though the game without much difficulty. Playing MMOs like Vanguard for example, is much tougher, and if you treat it like SWTOR then it is easy to die, and especiallt when taking on a mob of 2 or more, whereas in SWTOR can take on about 3 or 4 and not break a sweat.

It is not a surprise that subs are rising atm, due to Makeb. If F2P want it then they are probably subbing to get it for $25 as is more value for money. I even subbed to get it, but will not again afterwards.

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

3/29/13 6:31:01 PM#54
Originally posted by DaRoamer
Originally posted by gervaise1
Originally posted by tiefighter25

I don't think he is being entirely truthful.

Certainly very selective.

Subs started to go up again - between November and December as per your second link (http://www.edge-online.com/features/gdc-2013-star-wars-the-old-republics-difficult-launch-and-its-free-to-play-switch/ )  Like saying subs are going up kust after a game launches. Game goes f2p, lots of folk try it and, no surprise, some of them become subscribers - and given that the game will have had very few new subscribers in the months prior to going f2p no big deal.

 

The spin is strong with this one.  From the massively article:

"When free-to-play launched in November, it "blew all expectations out of the water," said Ohlen. Subscriptions started going up again. Concurrent players on the servers went way up. Both of those statistics continue to rise."

I know this is painful news for many of the people on this forum who desperately want the game to fail.

I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

 

(If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

  akiira69

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 516

Need longer quote limits.

3/29/13 6:32:02 PM#55
Originally posted by Hamsurd
Why has this game not been shut down ? its very very very very bad, you should feel bad, if you didnt quit after 2 months into the game at lunch.

because no one else shares your foolish opinions about the game. you might hate the game but i love it, it is the only new mmo out right now that doesnt have a storyline that a sounds like a 7 year old wrote(though with WOW i think a 7 year old could od better).

"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"

  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 664

3/29/13 7:09:39 PM#56

 

If we take the man at his word, then the AH is pulling in a lot of money. So why are they nickel-and-diming free to play players (who are spending tons of money in the AH apparently), isn't that crapping on the face of your customers?

 

Why are they charging for content that was free, if they are racking in so much cash?

 

If the man is right in what he said then they are gouging their player base.

 

So either he is right and they are a-holes or he is lying/misrepresenting the truth.

  Sevenstar61

Elite Member

Joined: 7/22/12
Posts: 1421

"But it was so artistically done..." - Grand Admiral Thrawn's final words

3/29/13 7:18:17 PM#57
Originally posted by Ryowulf

 

If we take the man at his word, then the AH is pulling in a lot of money. So why are they nickel-and-diming free to play players (who are spending tons of money in the AH apparently), isn't that crapping on the face of your customers?

 

Why are they charging for content that was free, if they are racking in so much cash?

 

If the man is right in what he said then they are gouging their player base.

 

So either he is right and they are a-holes or he is lying/misrepresenting the truth.

SWTOR main player base are still subscribers, and it's growing numbers.... I bet that subscribers are spending more in Cartel market than F2P, so why make it easier to F2P players :). To keep subscribers there has to be insentive to be one, otherwise we would all be F2P players, right?

 


Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  Swanea

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 2367

3/29/13 7:18:37 PM#58

Just to nitpick, it does say Three to Five.  I believe my first agent took about 2 months and while I played a lot, i'm one of the MOST inefficient levelers you'll meet.

They were so far off it's silly.  Most of my friends in my guild were fifty in 3 weeks tops.  I can't believe they didn't look into WoW, GW, or ANY OTHER MMO OUT and see how many people RUSH to end game (especially after WoW made End game the only part of the game).

They put a ton of emphasis on their story, which is great.  But almost nothing on endgame at release when they KNOW people gobble up raid/end game stuff in other MMOs like it's water in the desert.

  Sevenstar61

Elite Member

Joined: 7/22/12
Posts: 1421

"But it was so artistically done..." - Grand Admiral Thrawn's final words

3/29/13 7:31:08 PM#59

All of my toons time spent on leveling was about  7 to 8 days of gameplay - no shortcuts. But I was so involved in stories that i did not care much about end game at that time... I had so many alts to level... I still do:)

 

Well folks... looks like BioWare will be making another MMO... and I say... keep them coming... now you can bite me :)

SWTOR now has plans extending into the future including more expansion packs, like Rise of the Hutt Cartel and beyond. The plan is to introduce items into the game that do not exist in current MMOs. And thanks to the current success of TOR, BioWare is now the studio that will lead the charge for EA MMORPGs in the future, ones that aren't just Star Wars but other IPs as well. But most importantly, Ohlen told us, the morale of the BioWare community and studio has soared, and he hopes to tell us a different story for next year.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/29/gdc-2013-james-ohlen-on-how-f2p-saved-swtor/


Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  DaRoamer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 252

3/29/13 7:36:34 PM#60
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by DaRoamer
Originally posted by gervaise1
Originally posted by tiefighter25

I don't think he is being entirely truthful.

Certainly very selective.

Subs started to go up again - between November and December as per your second link (http://www.edge-online.com/features/gdc-2013-star-wars-the-old-republics-difficult-launch-and-its-free-to-play-switch/ )  Like saying subs are going up kust after a game launches. Game goes f2p, lots of folk try it and, no surprise, some of them become subscribers - and given that the game will have had very few new subscribers in the months prior to going f2p no big deal.

 

The spin is strong with this one.  From the massively article:

"When free-to-play launched in November, it "blew all expectations out of the water," said Ohlen. Subscriptions started going up again. Concurrent players on the servers went way up. Both of those statistics continue to rise."

I know this is painful news for many of the people on this forum who desperately want the game to fail.

I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

 

(If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

Eve has 1 server.  They have 450k subs. 

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