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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

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362 posts found
  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

3/28/13 3:16:28 PM#161
Honestly, it's not even a study.  They collected data and then misinterpreted it.  That's not exactly research methodology.  Didn't anyone ever explain the difference between correlation and causation to these guys?  Mediators and moderators would be lost on them, I think.
  papabear151

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 56

3/28/13 3:42:28 PM#162
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by papabear151
The reality is that game execs would rather copy/paste whatever store-shelf version of the game engine they bought and slap some sprites on it so they can sell you a rehash of their last 500 games instead of actually investing in AI and advancing the industry.


AI is tricky to balance. I would like to see AI be the improvement when a player selects a higher difficulty, not just numbers to whittle down and survive.

 

For me, a monster that attacks a healer first makes sense to me. It is how I would play it. Then I would attack the summoner and pet players. Kill 2 (or more) for 1 with that strategy. The LAST person I would attack would be the beefy fighter getting in my face. That strategy would be too hard for many players, myself included. So introduce this strategy in the harder modes.

Being able to shoot at 1 opponent out of a group is kind of silly to me. I am constantly reminded of the 2 guards outside of the Swamp Castle in Monty Python's Holy Grail movie when Lancelot storms the place. Lancelot kills one guard as he runs by and the other, eating an apple, slowly turns after his buddy dies and says, "What?" Using crowd control to break up a group makes sense to me. Making opponents more aware of their buddies ("YOU SHOT CHARLIE!") would make the game too hard for some players, myself included. Again, a nice addition to tougher level gameplay options.

An opponents LoS is always less than a players. I always figure, "If I can see them, they can see me." (Unless in some kind of sneak/invisibility mode.) This is not true. Making this true would make the game too hard for some players, myself included. Imagine adding this to harder mode opponents.

There is a lot that can be done to improve AI. Developers know that some things would make the game too tough for the average player, like me :) But if they added a better to AI to a difficulty slider, that would be cool! I may even try out the harder mode opponents then.

 

I agree with this completely. I have no problem with difficulty sliders, the issue is that most difficulty sliders are actually tedium sliders.

  papabear151

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 56

3/28/13 3:45:45 PM#163
Originally posted by Everwest
Honestly, it's not even a study.  They collected data and then misinterpreted it.  That's not exactly research methodology.  Didn't anyone ever explain the difference between correlation and causation to these guys?  Mediators and moderators would be lost on them, I think.

This study wasn't done for people like you. This study was done for consumers that let company executives tell said consumers how to feel about their products.

 

These people don't care about methodology and neither do the game companies as anyone dull enough to let the salesman give them their opinions on products is too dull to realize the ridiculousness of the whole situation.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/28/13 3:49:35 PM#164
Originally posted by Xthos

95-98% of the content being easy, and then 2-5% of it being harder does not make something challenging.  98 > 2.  Difficulty sliders are horrible imo, make the game as hard as it should be for the vision the developer has, not, you can play our 4 dungeons on 5 settings, so we have 20 dungeons!  I see this crap all the time, no thanks.  How about you give me 10 unique dungeons, not 16 fake scaled dungeons, with 4 real ones.

 

Nope .. it does make the 2-5% challenging. If you prefer to play the 95% .. well ..are you pretending the 5% does not exist?

And who say it is 5% .. a lot of people spend days and days in raiding.

And the percentage time is a decision.

A game with easy and hard game mode . ... if you CHOOSE to only play 100% easy, does it make the game easy?

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3663

RIP City of Heroes!

3/28/13 3:53:21 PM#165
Originally posted by papabear151

I've lost interest in video games because they are too easy. I don't need an executive to tell me how I feel and why I do things, I'm perfectly capable of deciding those things on my own.

 

The gaming industry is trying to sell "tedious" as "hard / difficult" but there is a large difference between having to improve skills to handle the difficulty and merely throwing hours at the game. Most of the "difficult" games are artifically difficult by adding in high hp mobs that can instant kill you and adding in lots of random unavoidable instant kill situations. When beating a boss equates to fighting him 5 times on the hope that the random number generator doesnt just insta kill you with it's 75% proc chance then the boss isn't difficult, he's tedious.

 

I don't turn down difficulties, I frequently turn them up.

 

The reality is that game execs would rather copy/paste whatever store-shelf version of the game engine they bought and slap some sprites on it so they can sell you a rehash of their last 500 games instead of actually investing in AI and advancing the industry.

 

The issue is that the consumers fall for "studies" like this and let big companies tell them how they feel instead of deciding this on their own and standing firm with that decision by closing their wallets.

 The opposite of easy is hard.  Some people confuse hard with challenging.  It's easier to build one house than two.  It's harder to build 100 houses than 2.   If they all have the same design they are all at the same challenge level.  Killing 10 mobs to gain a level is easier than having to kill 7000 mobs to gain a level.  If the mobs are the identical in function the challenge level is the same.

Is it really THAT DIFFICULT to understand? 

  papabear151

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 56

3/28/13 3:56:52 PM#166
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by papabear151

I've lost interest in video games because they are too easy. I don't need an executive to tell me how I feel and why I do things, I'm perfectly capable of deciding those things on my own.

 

The gaming industry is trying to sell "tedious" as "hard / difficult" but there is a large difference between having to improve skills to handle the difficulty and merely throwing hours at the game. Most of the "difficult" games are artifically difficult by adding in high hp mobs that can instant kill you and adding in lots of random unavoidable instant kill situations. When beating a boss equates to fighting him 5 times on the hope that the random number generator doesnt just insta kill you with it's 75% proc chance then the boss isn't difficult, he's tedious.

 

I don't turn down difficulties, I frequently turn them up.

 

The reality is that game execs would rather copy/paste whatever store-shelf version of the game engine they bought and slap some sprites on it so they can sell you a rehash of their last 500 games instead of actually investing in AI and advancing the industry.

 

The issue is that the consumers fall for "studies" like this and let big companies tell them how they feel instead of deciding this on their own and standing firm with that decision by closing their wallets.

 The opposite of easy is hard.  Some people confuse hard with challenging.  It's easier to build one house than two.  It's harder to build 100 houses than 2.   If they all have the same design they are all at the same challenge level.  Killing 10 mobs to gain a level is easier than having to kill 7000 mobs to gain a level.  If the mobs are the identical in function the challenge level is the same.

Is it really THAT DIFFICULT to understand? 

That's an opnion. I don't consider tedious work to be difficult, just tedious. On top of that, things can be more difficult and still land in the realm of easy, which is wear tedium lands. Take a game that is easy, add all the tedium in the world, it's still never going to break into "difficult" it'll just be "more difficult than it was", which usually wasn't very and isn't very.

  papabear151

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 56

3/28/13 3:58:39 PM#167
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

 

Even 10+ year vets can find something hard. Have a look at DREAM Paragon, the number 1 WoW guild in the world. A month into the new raid tier and they still haven't cleared all 13 heroic bosses. Keep in mind these are the best raiders in the world, with the best gear, are sponsored, and raid 40+ hours a week.

All games, GW2, WoW, etc, have easy content, and hard content.

I'm sorry, maybe it's just me, but that sounds utterly pathetic.  What a bunch of losers.

This is one time I agree with Cephus404. That is just sad.

This is their job, how is your job balancing someones bank account or flipping burgers any less pathetic? 

  AIMonster

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 1981

3/28/13 4:06:57 PM#168

The problem with MMOs (or more specifically, RPGs in general) is the difficulty doesn't stem from how challenging an encounter is for each individual player, but more like the time investment required to player (and grind devoted to that specific content).  Once you understand the basics of the encounter it's all about execution and more importantly your level of gear needed to complete that encounter.

I'm not knocking a raiding guild's achievements.  I've been part of several server first raiding guilds myself.  I'm a very progression minded player who likes to go for world and server firsts in multiple aspects of the game, but the notion that MMOs are difficult is just wrong.  Keep in mind It IS an accomplishment to do something first or even within the top 1% of guilds to do that content first; however the majority of the accomplishment comes down to those two things, not the perceived notion of actual "difficulty".

If lockout timers were removed on raids in WoW and guilds like Paragon with the time investment necessary could farm all the best gear from first few raid bosses in the dungeon over and over again you'd bet they already have the Heroic content in the new expansion/patch on farm within a week instead of the month or two it takes them now.  That's because when you break MMORPGs down (this is changing slowly with more skill oriented / twitch or even tactical oriented games hitting the market) they are simple "combat simulators" that require little input from the player compared to a twitch (physical) or tactical (mental) game.  If everyone in the world invested as much time into raiding progression as guilds like Paragon did, then nearly everyone would be on the level of guilds like Paragon as it doesn't require much intelligence or muscle memory to perform at the level Paragon does, it just boils down to time investment and efficiency/focus.

I see people cite EQ's raids as difficult content, but a lot of classes on EQ's raids were played with 1-4 button rotations.  There were Clerics that simply just ran CH rotations (with mana regen increases in later expansions and larger amounts of clerics they were able to cast other skills in between), I know my Magician on the top raiding guild on my server essentially only used 3 spells during combat in raids on average.  Not only this, but the cast times were ridiculously long.  The only thing difficult about EQ's raids was time investment.

Obviously MMORPGs are improving on this.  WoW is more action oriented than EQ, and Guild Wars 2 is more action oriented than WoW and so on.  Soon MMORPGs will be in line with more skill oriented single and multiplayer games like Fighting Games, Third Person Action Games, and Shooters and we'll see the true difficulty of them skyrocket.

So I think when we talk specifically about easy, yes the current MMOs and especially the older generations of MMOs are much too "easy" in this aspect.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  papabear151

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 56

3/28/13 4:11:01 PM#169
Originally posted by Magnum2103

The problem with MMOs (or more specifically, RPGs in general) is the difficulty doesn't stem from how challenging an encounter is for each individual player, but more like the time investment required to player (and grind devoted to that specific content).  Once you understand the basics of the encounter it's all about execution and more importantly your level of gear needed to complete that encounter.

I'm not knocking a raiding guild's achievements.  I've been part of several server first raiding guilds myself.  I'm a very progression minded player who likes to go for world and server firsts in multiple aspects of the game, but the notion that MMOs are difficult is just wrong.  Keep in mind It IS an accomplishment to do something first or even within the top 1% of guilds to do that content first; however the majority of the accomplishment comes down to those two things, not the perceived notion of actual "difficulty".

If lockout timers were removed on raids in WoW and guilds like Paragon with the time investment necessary could farm all the best gear from first few raid bosses in the dungeon over and over again you'd bet they already have the Heroic content in the new expansion/patch on farm within a week instead of the month or two it takes them now.  That's because when you break MMORPGs down (this is changing slowly with more skill oriented / twitch or even tactical oriented games hitting the market) they are simple "combat simulators" that require little input from the player compared to a twitch (physical) or tactical (mental) game.  If everyone in the world invested as much time into raiding progression as guilds like Paragon did, then nearly everyone would be on the level of guilds like Paragon as it doesn't require much intelligence or muscle memory to perform at the level Paragon does, it just boils down to time investment and efficiency/focus.

I see people cite EQ's raids as difficult content, but a lot of classes on EQ's raids were played with 1-4 button rotations.  There were Clerics that simply just ran CH rotations (with mana regen increases in later expansions and larger amounts of clerics they were able to cast other skills in between), I know my Magician on the top raiding guild on my server essentially only used 3 spells during combat in raids on average.  Not only this, but the cast times were ridiculously long.  The only thing difficult about EQ's raids was time investment.

Obviously MMORPGs are improving on this.  WoW is more action oriented than EQ, and Guild Wars 2 is more action oriented than WoW and so on.  Soon MMORPGs will be in line with more skill oriented single and multiplayer games like Fighting Games, Third Person Action Games, and Shooters and we'll see the true difficulty of them skyrocket.

So I think when we talk specifically about easy, yes the current MMOs and especially the older generations of MMOs are much too "easy" in this aspect.

While I agree with a lot of this I don't see the addition of easy single player mechanics to mmos as making the game more difficult, I mean, single player games aren't hard.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/28/13 4:11:51 PM#170
Originally posted by Magnum2103
  If everyone in the world invested as much time into raiding progression as guilds like Paragon did, then nearly everyone would be on the level of guilds like Paragon as it doesn't require much intelligence or muscle memory to perform at the level Paragon does, it just boils down to time investment and efficiency/focus.

I doubt that. Some of the scripted mechanics in WOW boss fights need a lot of coordination and memory to pull off. I remember practicing boss fights wipe after wipe when i was in a progression guild some years ago.

I doubt everyone with time can pull it off. A small mistake and it is a wipe. You timing is off and it is a wipe. You forget to do something and it is a wipe. You fail to notice somethign on the ground and it is a wipe.

  AIMonster

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 1981

3/28/13 4:26:06 PM#171
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I doubt that. Some of the scripted mechanics in WOW boss fights need a lot of coordination and memory to pull off. I remember practicing boss fights wipe after wipe when i was in a progression guild some years ago.

I doubt everyone with time can pull it off. A small mistake and it is a wipe. You timing is off and it is a wipe. You forget to do something and it is a wipe. You fail to notice somethign on the ground and it is a wipe.

As someone who has done it, I wholeheartly disagree.  I never felt like what I was doing was anything beyond what an average player could pull off if they invested the same amount of time in said game (particularly WoW) as me.  I did say a lot of it comes down to learning the encounter and your general knowledge of the game, but if everyone had the ridiculous time investment it would be a given that they had the experience to pull this off.

On the other hand if you take a shooter, or strategy game, or a MOBA you'll find that even players with the same amount of time invested in the game specifically for the competitive level they won't necessarily be able to pull off playing at a professional level.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  AIMonster

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 1981

3/28/13 4:31:09 PM#172
Originally posted by papabear151

While I agree with a lot of this I don't see the addition of easy single player mechanics to mmos as making the game more difficult, I mean, single player games aren't hard.

There are actually quite a few single (and multiplayer games) that are difficult.  Games like Catherine, Fire Emblem, and Demon Souls come to mind especially on their highest difficulty settings.  Players and critics also complain these games are too difficult and their review scores sometimes suffer as a result.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/28/13 4:31:13 PM#173
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I doubt that. Some of the scripted mechanics in WOW boss fights need a lot of coordination and memory to pull off. I remember practicing boss fights wipe after wipe when i was in a progression guild some years ago.

I doubt everyone with time can pull it off. A small mistake and it is a wipe. You timing is off and it is a wipe. You forget to do something and it is a wipe. You fail to notice somethign on the ground and it is a wipe.

As someone who has done it, I wholeheartly disagree.  I never felt like what I was doing was anything beyond what an average player could pull off if they invested the same amount of time in said game (particularly WoW) as me.  I did say a lot of it comes down to learning the encounter and your general knowledge of the game, but if everyone had the ridiculous time investment it would be a given that they had the experience to pull this off.

You never encounter the guild player where no matter how many times the group wipe, he never learn a particular maneuver for the boss? I have practiced many times, and some people never get it, and they are replaced. I doubt the ability to maneuver, to remember sequences .. is all the same for everyone.

On the other hand if you take a shooter, or strategy game, or a MOBA you'll find that even players with the same amount of time invested in the game specifically for the competitive level they won't necessarily be able to pull off playing at a professional level.

Definitely. Even professional players have a wide range of abilities .. and the Korean pro practice 16 hours every day .. every single one of them.

I will never be as good as any one of them .. even if i devote my life to a single game.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/28/13 4:31:59 PM#174
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by papabear151

While I agree with a lot of this I don't see the addition of easy single player mechanics to mmos as making the game more difficult, I mean, single player games aren't hard.

There are actually quite a few single (and multiplayer games) that are difficult.  Games like Catherine, Fire Emblem, and Demon Souls come to mind especially on their highest difficulty settings.  Players and critics also complain these games are too difficult and their review scores sometimes suffer as a result.

Throw in D3. It was so hard that Inferno was repeated nerfed, and a difficulty option put in. It also has perma death.

  AIMonster

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 1981

3/28/13 4:39:41 PM#175
Originally posted by nariusseldon

You never encounter the guild player where no matter how many times the group wipe, he never learn a particular maneuver for the boss? I have practiced many times, and some people never get it, and they are replaced. I doubt the ability to maneuver, to remember sequences .. is all the same for everyone.

I have, but no offense to those people, but I think they are WAY below "average".  We've had to kick people from guilds in the past who were unable to learn no matter how many times things were explained.  I'm not saying there is zero skill/difficulty involved in WoW raiding (or MMO raiding in general) just that the ceiling isn't very high.  I'm saying that if everyone had the time investment and were willing to devote it specifically to raiding, that on average most guilds would be at Paragon's level because only people far below the average gamer's skill level wouldn't be able to handle the encounters.

The main factor in most MMORPGs especially ones with less modernized combat systems is time investment / experience over a player's actual skill level.  There are still players who are going to be way more efficient at said games and are able to compete without as much time investment and there will still be players who have the same time investment and determination, but will never be able to compete at the high end level, yet the factor of "skill" is much lower than in other games that involve more twitch or tactical input from the player and the primary factor is time investment instead.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

 
OP  3/28/13 4:44:13 PM#176
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by nariusseldon

You never encounter the guild player where no matter how many times the group wipe, he never learn a particular maneuver for the boss? I have practiced many times, and some people never get it, and they are replaced. I doubt the ability to maneuver, to remember sequences .. is all the same for everyone.

I have, but no offense to those people, but I think they are WAY below "average".  We've had to kick people from guilds in the past who were unable to learn no matter how many times things were explained.  I'm not saying there is zero skill/difficulty involved in WoW raiding (or MMO raiding in general) just that the ceiling isn't very high.  I'm saying that if everyone had the time investment and were willing to devote it specifically to raiding, that on average most guilds would be at Paragon's level because only people far below the average gamer's skill level wouldn't be able to handle the encounters.

The main factor in most MMORPGs especially ones with less modernized combat systems is time investment / experience over a player's actual skill level.  There are still players who are going to be way more efficient at said games and are able to compete without as much time investment and there will still be players who have the same time investment and determination, but will never be able to compete at the high end level, yet the factor of "skill" is much lower than in other games that involve more twitch or tactical input from the player and the primary factor is time investment instead.

Now i don't know if there is any evidence whether they are "below" or "above" "average". I have seen data showing that only a few percentage of players have finished DS raid back in CATA normal mode, and most are doing LFR.

Now this may be self-selection, and may be they don't want to spend the time, but i think most players are really not skilled enough to do the hard mode raiding where there is very little tolerance for mistakes.

But again, i will concede that i have no evidence if this is above or below average .. and i doubt you have either.

  AIMonster

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 1981

3/28/13 4:53:30 PM#177
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Now i don't know if there is any evidence whether they are "below" or "above" "average". I have seen data showing that only a few percentage of players have finished DS raid back in CATA normal mode, and most are doing LFR.

Now this may be self-selection, and may be they don't want to spend the time, but i think most players are really not skilled enough to do the hard mode raiding where there is very little tolerance for mistakes.

But again, i will concede that i have no evidence if this is above or below average .. and i doubt you have either.

Of course I don't and I concede that maybe I consider "average" to be what actually is considered to be above average because I am the type of player that joins end game progression focused raiding guilds and surrond myself with those type of players thus my personal experience (the only evidence I have) would be mostly within my own guild and other progression minded players who enjoy and participate in top end raiding.

I still can state that with a fair amount of certainty that as MMO combat trends more towards new combat styles that rely more on twitch or tactical skill that the precentage of players able to hit the skill ceiling necessary for the highest level of end game content will be even smaller than it is now.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  papabear151

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 56

3/28/13 7:20:17 PM#178
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by papabear151

While I agree with a lot of this I don't see the addition of easy single player mechanics to mmos as making the game more difficult, I mean, single player games aren't hard.

There are actually quite a few single (and multiplayer games) that are difficult.  Games like Catherine, Fire Emblem, and Demon Souls come to mind especially on their highest difficulty settings.  Players and critics also complain these games are too difficult and their review scores sometimes suffer as a result.

Throw in D3. It was so hard that Inferno was repeated nerfed, and a difficulty option put in. It also has perma death.

Demon souls is the perfect example of tedium instead of difficulty. Bad gameplay mechanics and random instant deaths don't make the game hard, the just require you throw lots of hours at it. Now, that may be more difficult than "easy", but it doesn't change the core concept.

 

Diablo 3 is probably the worst example you could ever give. The difficulty was nerfed repeatedly because only a few classes that had spent hundreds of hours farming an easier difficulty could complete the difficulty. It was literally as easy as

1) level a demon hunter

2) Farm easy stuff for gear enough to farm the inforno, this is not difficult, just time consuming and tedious.

3) When you have the correct gear to survive act 1 inferno, move to act 1 inferno and begin farming.

4) Repeat for each act until complete.

 

If you think this is difficult then I doubt you have the cognitive capacity to actually judge the difficulty of anything.

  Vindicar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 137

Dun Mock meh engliesh !

3/29/13 4:26:24 AM#179

half agree, half disagree...

I see a lots of black n white statements....

 

Yes most ranters about game's difficulty (especially nowadays) are usually haters and trolls who never completed the really hard parts of the game they bash.

BUT no one can deny the general dumbing down in most AAAs' difficulty.

Taking WoW as an exemple is cheating. It was actually one of its main quality : many difficulty "levels" to content every kind of PvE gamer. And yes it has a huge comunity so there's a huge comunity of trolls. Whining about difficulty is (/was) indeed trolling in WOW.

Look at this other exemple : SWTOR... where 90% (almost not kidding on the number) of the hardcore/vet PvE players left right after the 1.2 patch (5 or 6 months after the release) who was supposed to be THE "hight-end" PvE patch. Most decent guilds had no problem beating the Denova instance on its harder setting during the test server and most hardcore guilds who did wait for the official release had no problem beating it in a very fiew nights... Next PvE releases were even easier...Whining about difficulty seems legit there.

 

Those are, in my opinion , the two differents colors of the picture... and I'm afraid that there is at least as much legit complains as angry trolls.

I mean seriously : name me a close release with quality and really competitive/hard PvE ?

Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
Recently known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
Actually Known as "Wundicar" in Age of Wushu (US)

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1565

3/29/13 9:37:34 AM#180
Originally posted by Disdena
Oh nonsense. MMOs are easy. Any and all MMO content can be beaten by pressing 1 2 3 1 1 1 1. An internet forum user said so in a dismissive manner, and I have it on good authority that they know everything.

Obviously I guess you have been so far playing only Hello Kitty online. :-)

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