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83 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17944

3/28/13 3:55:49 PM#61
Originally posted by Torik

Maybe it is because I just never form emotional bonds with my virtual possessions.  I know that I might get bored with teh game and quit and I can't take virtual property with me.  The achievement is in obtaining the items but there is no achievement in keeping them since it is so trivial to lose them all.

That is why a RMAH is good. You can cash out.

  Tranceryp

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 7

3/28/13 4:00:39 PM#62

The MMO that truly brought a sense of fear and risk to me was most definitely FFXI.

I remember when you could die, lose experience, and Level Down from that death. It was devastating at the time but it made you be sure to be careful from then on.

Also all of the casts you had to put on yourself to not be found ("sneak" "invisible" "smell") and the complexities of various ways that monsters could aggro you was very cool and put you on the edge of your seat if one started to run out. The enemies would chase you forever - until you died, and they would train everything with them until they caught you or you zoned out.

I've never gotten a dangerous feeling like the one I got from FFXI. FFXI was just so harsh and unforgivable that when you did accomplish a level, or a new item, or a piece of Artifact Armor, that it was just an amazing feeling. That game also made sure that you played with others and it created an immense sense of community because of the danger that the world contained.

MMO's today are just easy and casual fun. Nothing has ever scared me in them and the world feels very tame compared to the harsh realities of what FFXI was back in the day...

I'm kind of sad (but understand) why FFXIV:ARR will not be nearly as unforgiving as FFXI was. The majority of people that play MMO's today are not used to the hardcore playstyle the older MMOs exhibited. They would not be able to handle steep death penalities like EXP loss, EQUIP loss, etc. and the game would end up suffering because people would inevitibly complain for change.

RIP old, scary, dangerous, challenging ways of MMO games...

  RajCaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 678

3/28/13 4:11:12 PM#63
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RajCaj
 

 

 

We are getting into symantics here....

When I say Crafing in Lineage 2 is difficult (because of a dice roll), i mean it is difficult to get a particular piece of crafted gear.  What adds the degree of difficulty to obtaining the gear?  The significant probability of potentially failing, and having to start farming all the resources and/or gold again to give it another shot. 

Clicking the craft button is not, in itself difficult.  Obtaining the item is.

 

The same with the added risk componet to PvP...

It is difficult to be successful PvPing in a game like Ultima Online, because to do so, you have to be able to sustain the ability to be effective & competitive in PvP....which relys on being geared & having regents / bandages/ potions, etc.  If you loose all your items from dying (high consequence), you don't have the requisite gear to continue to PvP....or at the very least farm resources so that you can be properly geared to get back in the PvP scene.

Difficulty, in the sense of being able to sustain capability to continue to be competitive in PvP, is of a lesser degree in games like WOW, where the worst that can happen is that a piece of gear gets damaged so much that it becomes innefective....but can be returned to function with relatively low repair cost.

  Bananaramaa

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 35

3/28/13 4:13:50 PM#64

I feel like not being able to run and have death penalties like in FFXI was a very solid mechanic for this. It was always tense, fight or die as another poster said.

Same goes for single player games, it's not grind to put in big penalties for loss. Games should be frustrating to some degree. They need some tension and not to be just all perfect happy clappy bullshit like gw2.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17944

3/28/13 4:21:24 PM#65
Originally posted by RajCaj
 

We are getting into symantics here....

When I say Crafing in Lineage 2 is difficult (because of a dice roll), i mean it is difficult to get a particular piece of crafted gear.  What adds the degree of difficulty to obtaining the gear?  The significant probability of potentially failing, and having to start farming all the resources and/or gold again to give it another shot. 

I suppose it is semantic.

You can say it is "difficult" to win money from a casino because of the odds. However, when in discussion, you may want to make it clear. Because "this" difficulty is certainly not the same kind that requires player skill to be a difficult encounter.

 

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4526

GW2 socialist.

3/28/13 4:28:25 PM#66
Originally posted by Bananaramaa

I feel like not being able to run and have death penalties like in FFXI was a very solid mechanic for this. It was always tense, fight or die as another poster said.

Same goes for single player games, it's not grind to put in big penalties for loss. Games should be frustrating to some degree. They need some tension and not to be just all perfect happy clappy bullshit like gw2.

Well maybe, but I know for damned sure that those jumping puzzles made me sweat more than any PvP match I've ever played.

  Bananaramaa

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 35

3/28/13 5:46:53 PM#67
Yeah and they were a great idea, but it's just a side and not the core of the game IMO.
  Rydeson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3114

3/28/13 5:59:25 PM#68
     I haven't felt danger since my EQ days...  There have been many times in EQ, i've been heard to say "SHIT SHIT SHIT" in real life while running for safety.. LOL  Those days are gone.. Games today all you have to do is run 30 feet away and mobs reset, or just take your chances, die, then pay for the repair bill...... Really?  There is no feeling of consequences or loss, so why should I fear anything?  MMO's today are like that consome game where all you have to do is press "Save Now".. NO challenge there.. But the masses demand easy play and they are the ones that pay the bills by the millions..  oh well
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17944

3/28/13 6:17:04 PM#69
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I haven't felt danger since my EQ days...  There have been many times in EQ, i've been heard to say "SHIT SHIT SHIT" in real life while running for safety.. LOL  Those days are gone.. Games today all you have to do is run 30 feet away and mobs reset, or just take your chances, die, then pay for the repair bill...... Really?  There is no feeling of consequences or loss, so why should I fear anything?  MMO's today are like that consome game where all you have to do is press "Save Now".. NO challenge there.. But the masses demand easy play and they are the ones that pay the bills by the millions..  oh well

You have never been in a raid, and the boss is down to 5% .. and you go "shit shit shit" and wiped?

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

3/28/13 6:39:35 PM#70

FFXI was definitely great at creating tension, but it also led to many people QUITTING, lest we forget.  Most players hated that aspect of the game. 

The thing is, most people really only have so much capacity to get that "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling while playing a video game.  For many people it's going to be roughly the same whether it costed you five minutes of progress or five hours, because dying pretty universally sucks.  It runs contrary to our goal.  The only question is going to be how frustrated you are by your failure. 

I wish I could show a graph to demonstrate, but basically, at a certain point, for every level you crank up the tension, you crank up the frustration exponentially more.  That "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling no longer resolves into, "Well, it'll take me 10 minutes to get back to where I was," and instead turns into ragequit.

As I said earlier in the thread, this is different for people with a tendency towards thrillseeking.  So if that sounds appealing to you, I suggest staying clear of casinos.

  Bananaramaa

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 35

3/28/13 7:16:28 PM#71

Striking the right balance is key, the problem is modern MMOs have just gone way too far in the opposite direction. It feels so wrong when you can just run away and lost hate from the mob instantly. Even easy single player games aren't usually like that.

I love frustrating games, but I'm not crying for full loot perma death or anything. Just some basic danger mechanics is all I'd ask of an MMO.

  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

3/28/13 8:36:00 PM#72

Do you people even know what it is you are asking for?

Be reasonable, you are asking, not to be able to come back to aid your alias in desparate time when your teritorry is under attack, if you down grade in your level, that means, you are powerles, and you have to level up again, which means another few days to grind to that level you where downgraed from, to be able to aid/defend your teritory again.

You loose youre privilage to territory. that is not the way of PVP.

This is, what it mean to have a death penalty.

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

3/28/13 11:23:41 PM#73
Originally posted by Everwest

The thing is, most people really only have so much capacity to get that "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling while playing a video game.  For many people it's going to be roughly the same whether it costed you five minutes of progress or five hours, because dying pretty universally sucks.  It runs contrary to our goal.  The only question is going to be how frustrated you are by your failure. 

I wish I could show a graph to demonstrate, but basically, at a certain point, for every level you crank up the tension, you crank up the frustration exponentially more.  That "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling no longer resolves into, "Well, it'll take me 10 minutes to get back to where I was," and instead turns into ragequit.

Agreed. If I'm immersed in the game experience, all I'm thinking about is the situation I'm in and the actions I need to take. For me, any feelings of panic, dread, etc. come from my desire to avoid failing, not from the effect that failure would have on me as a player. The only thing that changes is how I feel immediately after failing.

If the penalty for dying is much too light, then it can be difficult for me to feel like it's important to avoid dying, and then I won't have strong feelings about trying to win. But beyond that "I-care-about-not-dying" threshhold, piling on even worse penalties doesn't make me any more excited during a tight situation or more happy when I pull through and live. It only changes how I feel after failing and stepping out of the fantasy and back into reality.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1564

3/29/13 4:08:38 AM#74
Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Does anyone else feal that lack of danger makes MMORPGs and sRPGs feel stale?  ...

No.

  xeniar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 770

3/29/13 4:28:09 AM#75
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I haven't felt danger since my EQ days...  There have been many times in EQ, i've been heard to say "SHIT SHIT SHIT" in real life while running for safety.. LOL  Those days are gone.. Games today all you have to do is run 30 feet away and mobs reset, or just take your chances, die, then pay for the repair bill...... Really?  There is no feeling of consequences or loss, so why should I fear anything?  MMO's today are like that consome game where all you have to do is press "Save Now".. NO challenge there.. But the masses demand easy play and they are the ones that pay the bills by the millions..  oh well

You have never been in a raid, and the boss is down to 5% .. and you go "shit shit shit" and wiped?

Lol. you are now mixing 2 diffrent feelings.

Shit shit shit in his case. is OMFG i don't wanna die ge the fuck away from me monsters. while flailing arms around panicking. So this induces Panick / fear / mabey sorrow for the loss of exp etc a feeling of yes danger. you cannot carelessly do stuff.

your shit shit shit. is a ragemode because you failed the boss. it has no further consequenses other then you getting angry. If its a new boss youl pick yourself up and try it again. if its an old boss youl just get mad at whatever people do the failing.

2 completely diffrent things.

  mackleless

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 3

3/30/13 12:13:11 PM#76
Absolutely agree with you in this point - but then you need anger managent - some can do by thereselves, others need to learn that!
  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4732

4/01/13 8:29:50 AM#77
You can feel danger in a FPS, and in MMOFPS too, but not in a more standard MMO. All danger has been removed and been replaced by less rewards if you die.
  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 296

4/01/13 9:57:15 AM#78

i feel danger when i go alone in a new dungeon that over my power and i don't know it map or monster spawn point

It happen when i play rogue class and have invisible ability , when i step in mobs , they will notice me.

lol , i love adventure so i alway play that way.

go in with out kill any mobs , stealth item without anyone notice and finish my quest .

haha that because those mobs are stronger than me and it pain to kill just one of them.

Because of that , i alway feel danger since one wrong move and i have to start again.

 

But i think my way of play kind of stupid.

It more faster if i just  lvl up , earn more gear, learn more skill , then come back and slay all of them to finsh quest.

 

That's my story.

Then what make me feel danger ?

A feeling of unknown when you you face something new and stronger than you ?

or

A feeling of afraid lost something you value (normally your hard earning exp lol).

 

Every game chose the afraid of lost value things. Because it  easy way to make.

 

There are'nt many game chose to created fear of unknown.

Because It will take alot effort making mountains of content to created that kind of danger.

 

But that wasn't all of the story.

What make true danger is

The mix between "fear of face something you don't know" and "fear of lost something value"

add some thing called "human's greed"

A battle of greed between risk and earn.

 

It created what we called "danger adventure"

 

I think it's thing that OP want.

 

lol this post total mess up. I hope people can still read it

  osiriszoran

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/11
Posts: 87

4/01/13 1:24:54 PM#79

SWG had a huge sense of danger in the first few months of the game when there wasnt much crafted weapons and armor. Venturing out into the tatooine desert alone was gauranteed death. You had to group up with at least 10+ to survive beyond the sight of AH or bestine or any of the starter cities. If you died with your group and there was no medic who hadnt learned Rez yet...forget it your play session with that group was over.  I remember being in a group of 20 people hunting rontos, banthas, and other tatooine wild life only to have our entire group slaughtered by a group of tusken raiders. 

 

a few months later when weaponsmiths and armorsmiths were making top tier weapons people were soloing krayt dragons.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4732

4/02/13 3:29:55 AM#80
Originally posted by osiriszoran

SWG had a huge sense of danger in the first few months of the game when there wasnt much crafted weapons and armor. Venturing out into the tatooine desert alone was gauranteed death. You had to group up with at least 10+ to survive beyond the sight of AH or bestine or any of the starter cities. If you died with your group and there was no medic who hadnt learned Rez yet...forget it your play session with that group was over.  I remember being in a group of 20 people hunting rontos, banthas, and other tatooine wild life only to have our entire group slaughtered by a group of tusken raiders. 

a few months later when weaponsmiths and armorsmiths were making top tier weapons people were soloing krayt dragons.

 

 

What that demonstrates is how difficult game balance is to achieve and keep going. Did they decide before hand they wanted a more solo game? Or did they just decide they wanted the game to be easier and then hey presto you get a solo game.

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