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General Discussion  » So much for balance

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73 posts found
  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

3/27/13 6:31:13 PM#41
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Maephisto
 

 
TL:DR  the engie certainly doesnt seem broken when played by a competent person.

^So much this it isn't even funnyI'm sure someone will say it's the build and not the player, yadda yadda.

Also the video posted, majority of his damage comes from incendary powder. So this build is pretty limited in terms of versatility something other classes can do a lot better.

Right on cue

 

Have you tried this build? drop that one trait and see how useless this build becomes. Also yes it is the build and he is not the only engi who uses this. Whatever few engis i see in PVP spam this build running in circles. Could you explain me what is so amazing about the way he is playing? because that is the only way to play this build.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

3/28/13 3:07:52 AM#42
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Maephisto
 

 
TL:DR  the engie certainly doesnt seem broken when played by a competent person.

^So much this it isn't even funnyI'm sure someone will say it's the build and not the player, yadda yadda.

Also the video posted, majority of his damage comes from incendary powder. So this build is pretty limited in terms of versatility something other classes can do a lot better.

Right on cue

 

Have you tried this build? drop that one trait and see how useless this build becomes. Also yes it is the build and he is not the only engi who uses this. Whatever few engis i see in PVP spam this build running in circles. Could you explain me what is so amazing about the way he is playing? because that is the only way to play this build.

Dont ask us.

I just showed you where to access the entire library of videos of a skillful engie.

This is a person who consistently put foot to ass, despite those who said, "this class is completely broken." 

Before you or anyone else decides to comment further, ask yourself, do I know my class as much as I think I do?

The answer is probably no.

Cease the bitching, study more.

 

  Kaleston

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 176

3/28/13 5:59:06 AM#43

I think you need 2 approaches to balance.

First is elite balance, balance of classes for top players, that know very well what they are doing and they can execute it very well as well. They don't do as many rookie mistakes and they have fairly fast reflexes. They say this is where balance is not too bad (see the engi video above).

Second is noob balance. This is balance for casual players, players that don't study all classes extensively, are usually fairly clumsy etc. etc. No doubt elite player will destroy casual player balance or not balance.

These are two completely different stories... glass cannon thief would be totally destroyed in elite level, while he is extremely lethal in casual level ("omg! he kills me in one hit!" syndrome). Most people care about casual level really. This is where thieves and mesmers (and imo guardians also) shine. They are super easy to play. And that's why they are felt "OP". Their abilities are confusing for casual player. Once you see through it, they are not so difficult anymore.

I just want to point out that saying "elite level is fine, l2p noob" is not right in my opinion. Balance should be fine in more levels of player skill. As an example, if mesmer would be a bit more distinguished from his clones, that would have next to no effect on elite level (where player can distinguish mesmer anyway), but helped a lot in casual level.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2669

3/28/13 7:09:03 AM#44
Originally posted by Kaleston

I think you need 2 approaches to balance.

First is elite balance, balance of classes for top players, that know very well what they are doing and they can execute it very well as well. They don't do as many rookie mistakes and they have fairly fast reflexes. They say this is where balance is not too bad (see the engi video above).

Second is noob balance. This is balance for casual players, players that don't study all classes extensively, are usually fairly clumsy etc. etc. No doubt elite player will destroy casual player balance or not balance.

These are two completely different stories... glass cannon thief would be totally destroyed in elite level, while he is extremely lethal in casual level ("omg! he kills me in one hit!" syndrome). Most people care about casual level really. This is where thieves and mesmers (and imo guardians also) shine. They are super easy to play. And that's why they are felt "OP". Their abilities are confusing for casual player. Once you see through it, they are not so difficult anymore.

I just want to point out that saying "elite level is fine, l2p noob" is not right in my opinion. Balance should be fine in more levels of player skill. As an example, if mesmer would be a bit more distinguished from his clones, that would have next to no effect on elite level (where player can distinguish mesmer anyway), but helped a lot in casual level.

Your approach reduces the skill ceiling, something not particularly good.

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

3/28/13 7:41:28 AM#45
Originally posted by Maephisto
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Maephisto
 

 
TL:DR  the engie certainly doesnt seem broken when played by a competent person.

^So much this it isn't even funnyI'm sure someone will say it's the build and not the player, yadda yadda.

Also the video posted, majority of his damage comes from incendary powder. So this build is pretty limited in terms of versatility something other classes can do a lot better.

Right on cue

 

Have you tried this build? drop that one trait and see how useless this build becomes. Also yes it is the build and he is not the only engi who uses this. Whatever few engis i see in PVP spam this build running in circles. Could you explain me what is so amazing about the way he is playing? because that is the only way to play this build.

Dont ask us.

I just showed you where to access the entire library of videos of a skillful engie.

This is a person who consistently put foot to ass, despite those who said, "this class is completely broken." 

Before you or anyone else decides to comment further, ask yourself, do I know my class as much as I think I do?

The answer is probably no.

Cease the bitching, study more.

 

 

Two posts one of which i mentioned where the majority of damage comes from and second one which asks if the guy posting the link has even tried the build himself is hardly a bitching.

Cease being defensive and learn to be more tolerant.

And yes it is a legitimate question and that is why i am asking..how many of you have even tried this build. This build is not such a big secret like i already mentioned and is the 'only' most viable build for the engis in PVP thanks to incendary powder trait. 

Am i surprised that it is always the same three or four people who jump in for damange control everytime something negattive even if legitimate concern or issue comes up? nope.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

3/28/13 7:55:53 AM#46
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

 

 

Two posts one of which i mentioned where the majority of damage comes from and second one which asks if the guy posting the link has even tried the build himself is hardly a bitching.

Cease beign defensive and learn toeeb more tolerant.

And yes it is a legitimate question and that is why i am asking..how many of you have even tried this build. This build is not such a big secret like i already mentioned and is the 'only most viable build for the engis in PVP thanks to incendary powder trait.

 

If something is a 'crutch' and the 'only thing' that makes a build work, that thing is covering a problem.

Most MMOs deal with this by buffing the build in other areas and limiting the crutch.

How long it takes and what form they take are up to each MMO developer but that's the current game design that most follow.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

3/28/13 8:22:11 AM#47
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

 

 

Two posts one of which i mentioned where the majority of damage comes from and second one which asks if the guy posting the link has even tried the build himself is hardly a bitching.

Cease beign defensive and learn toeeb more tolerant.

And yes it is a legitimate question and that is why i am asking..how many of you have even tried this build. This build is not such a big secret like i already mentioned and is the 'only most viable build for the engis in PVP thanks to incendary powder trait.

 

If something is a 'crutch' and the 'only thing' that makes a build work, that thing is covering a problem.

Most MMOs deal with this by buffing the build in other areas and limiting the crutch.

How long it takes and what form they take are up to each MMO developer but that's the current game design that most follow.

 

Well right now if all Engineers are happy following a cookie cutter build good for them. But the fact is that comapred to other classes Engineers have the most un used skills because they are completely useless in their current form.

Even KR which used to be such an important trait for all Engineer build has been nerfed and made useless.  Engineers only have two skills to pick from Kits and Elixers.

If you PVP a lot how many times you see engineers using gadgets, turrets etc? more than half of the skills are not being used and that in itself shows the problem with this class. 

But hey look at me i posted some cookie cutter build on you tube which every damn engineer is using..so this class must be ok.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

3/28/13 8:29:03 AM#48
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
 

 

Well right now if all Engineers are happy following a cookie cutter build good for them. But the fact is that comapred to other classes Engineers have the most un used skills because they are completely useless in their current form.

Even KR which used to be such an important trait for all Engineer build has been nerfed and made useless.  Engineers only have to skills to pick from Kits and Elixers.

If you PVP a lot how many times yous ee engineers using gadgets, turrets etc? more than half of the skills are not being used and that in itself shows the problem with this class. 

But hey look at me i posted some cookie cutter build on you tube which every damn engineer is using..so this class must be ok.

I have no interest in playing an Engineer as they don't appeal to me but weren't they one of the most sought after class for fitting well for all classes?

This was at release when things weren't quite working as intended though.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/28/13 1:28:27 PM#49
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Lol..funny video. Engineer is my main. I have been waiting for them to bring Engineer on par with other classes but i guess it is never going to happen.

This class hasn't been anywhere near what their class videos looked like at launch and that's saying something because the class wasn't OP at launch it had some exploits but so far all they've done since the first month is break it every patch that's all we see. They need to hire a physicist and an ex military officer to help them understand the damage that these weapons do. But like you I've given up on hope for it.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/28/13 1:30:59 PM#50
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by gordiflu
Originally posted by StanlyStanko
Originally posted by Cromica
lol they banned me from the forums for saying that this patch still gives me no reason to log in, the mods over there must be descendants of the stasi.

They already got your money. They don't have to care about you.

Becouse B2P is the best model, right? Right?

 

B2P is a good model yes from financial point of view however i am not so sure when it comes to support from the gaming companies.

Clearly Arenanet never add patches or content, Arenanet designers never go into forums and talk with people,..

 

They used to work with their customers prelaunch but 2 months after launch they lost their everloving minds or something because Nov 2012 is when this new attitude of we don't give a crap began.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/28/13 1:31:45 PM#51
Originally posted by Celcius
GW2 has the same balance issues alot of games do, but atleast they don't do dramatic changes to screw over the entire game's balance. (SWTOR/WoW)  I am pretty happy with the state of balance in the game considering. I don't really ever expect an MMO to be balanced. All my previous favorite MMOs --ironically enough -- had completely broken balance. (DAOC,UO,EQ1,WoW,AO,Rift) 

You've never played an engineer I take it....

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/28/13 1:33:35 PM#52
Originally posted by Maephisto

A couple of points for consideration:

  1. If you were to look at the amount of bullet points for the engineer (individual changes) versus other classes in the patch notes, it is clear the engie is a priority for Anet.  Whether or not the class is where they they envision it, who knows.
  2. Is the engie a much harder class to play well than the thief, of course it is.  Does it mean the thief is overpowered, absolutely not.
To really make my point, I will show a (RECENT) video of an engie.  This video shows the engie being able to do things even the best thief could not dream of doing.  Another point to remember, Teldo (the person playing this engie), competes among the most skilled people in sPvP.
 
 
Once you even begin to approach this level of skill, then I guess you have room to complain about the class.  Other classes that have a high skill cieling are also called broken or underpowered, I am guessing those people don't take a lot of time to learn thier class.
 
To end on a light note, another funny engie video.
 
 
TL:DR  the engie certainly doesnt seem broken when played by a competent person.

Yet another PVP video, we're not talking about that. PVE has been broken on the engineer since 2 months post launch and they STILL haven't fixed it yet, and all we keep getting from people is the argument that it's fine in pvp well that's great but that's not the entire audience they attracted to their title with their manifesto so....yeah.

  User Deleted
3/28/13 1:38:34 PM#53
That guy sounded exactly like Richmond from IT Crowd.
  User Deleted
 
OP  3/28/13 1:44:19 PM#54
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by itgrowls

It's patch day and I spent all day trying to discover just what they fixed over there. Nothing apparently, which is pretty much par for the course at this point for engineers. So in lieu of today's patch notes, please enjoy this video showing the short history up to today of how Arenanet has handled balance in their title since launch. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

 

So let's get this straight :

1) You don't like the engineer

2)You don't like the Trading Post

3)You don't like crafting

4) You don't like the games economy

5)You don't like the loot for DE's map completions or worlds bosses

6)You don't like the personal story

7)You don't like ascended gear

8)You don't like wvwvw

9)You don't like dungeons

10)You don't like Anet's management

Perhaps mmo's aren't your calling ?

I don't like what they did to the engineer post launch.

I don't like their economist that apparently can't do math. (0 drops divided into 0 carry the 0 still = 0) I played and still play lots of mmo's and never have I ever been in one where there was this much P***poor management in one company.

I loved crafting still made food up until I left, but it's obsolete now, just throw everything into the mystic toilet, which begs the question, uhm why did I max this out again?

This was a double so I won't answer it again.

The loot was broken and it took them 4 months to see it and 5 months to fix it all the while telling us it was our imagination and we were crazy, no apology or anything just swept it under the rug.

Personal story was fine until the end where it lost it's climactic nature, kinda meh.

ascended gear was a complete 180 from their original manifesto which attracted people like me to this game who are tired of gear grind dungeon focused game, this started in Nov when they adopted the We-don't-care-about-our-players new manifesto. *oh you know that stuff we told you for 7 years prior to launch, yeah scratch that now after you already bought it"

Was never a pvper and no one should ever force pvp on players, if it's going to be a pvp game and you're going to force players to go pvp, let us know before you launch. They didn't World Exploration forces players into pvp where until they fix it whole armies of other players would be invisible while you were being killed.

Was never a dungeoneer, tolerated it in WoW because it was literally the only thing to do accept fish.

I liked Anet's management just fine until three things happened. 

1: they called us all crazy when we spent months telling them about the lack of drops and disappearing chests (result of DR and their kill credit system both, they only admited to the credit system problem)

2: they went 180 on 7 years of philosophy after they got your money.

3: they gave us lip service about how much they care about balance and have ignored the one class that needed it the most since launch (some bugs btw are still there from BWE2.)

So yeah I am miffed and rightly so.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2878

There... are... four... lights!

3/28/13 1:59:27 PM#55
Originally posted by Bad.dog

So let's get this straight :

1) You don't like the engineer

2)You don't like the Trading Post

3)You don't like crafting

4) You don't like the games economy

5)You don't like the loot for DE's map completions or worlds bosses

6)You don't like the personal story

7)You don't like ascended gear

8)You don't like wvwvw

9)You don't like dungeons

10)You don't like Anet's management

Perhaps mmo's aren't your calling ?

Maybe he just enjoys complaining about video games on forums, and that's why he plays, so he has material to complain about? I have a neighbor like that, he spends his days behind is window looking what other people do and complaining about it.

To each his own, there are so many ways to have fun, a little tolerance please!

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

3/28/13 2:39:39 PM#56
Originally posted by gordiflu
Originally posted by StanlyStanko
Originally posted by Cromica
lol they banned me from the forums for saying that this patch still gives me no reason to log in, the mods over there must be descendants of the stasi.

They already got your money. They don't have to care about you.

Becouse B2P is the best model, right? Right?

 

Yeah because in P2P they give you all those years of money back if you don't like a patch, right.  Right?

Curse you AquaScum!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

3/28/13 2:44:46 PM#57
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by botrytis
[mod edit]

[mod edit]

Yeah, lots of people come here looking to make game decisions from random disgruntled posters.  How credible do you think a former whiteknight is when they turn coat and do a backstab because a patch didn't go their way.

It's not that you don't make some good points, but that your ongoing negative agenda since the gear patch has pretty much shot all credibility you have.  Now you're just preaching to those who already don't like the game and have nothing nice to say about it.  Your concern carries less weight as a result.  In other words why would I care about your opinions and rants when they're always colored by negativity, especially since you previously were so quick to dismiss concerns from others?

Curse you AquaScum!

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4818

3/28/13 3:12:58 PM#58
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by botrytis

People want to pwn, not have to work for a kill. It is that simple.

 

Don't like the game - don't play it. But people would rather whine than move on - victim mentality at it's finest.

Oh no you misunderstand, I'm just doing my civic duty of alerting those who don't post here but come here for some reading on what games have to offer, just warning people about a bad product. I don't play anymore.

Yeah, lots of people come here looking to make game decisions from random disgruntled posters.  How credible do you think a former whiteknight is when they turn coat and do a backstab because a patch didn't go their way.

It's not that you don't make some good points, but that your ongoing negative agenda since the gear patch has pretty much shot all credibility you have.  Now you're just preaching to those who already don't like the game and have nothing nice to say about it.  Your concern carries less weight as a result.  In other words why would I care about your opinions and rants when they're always colored by negativity, especially since you previously were so quick to dismiss concerns from others?

+1

The OP has already been showed videos that show how engineers are NOT weak (but hey, it's PvP so it doesn't count, completely side-stepping the fact that few skills currently have separate balance for PvP and PvE). While the video in the OP is mildly funny, it obviously blows things way out of proportion.

I used to think engineers sucked as well, and were nerfed into the ground, and then i noticed something. Engineers are insanely tough to kill, and their damage is not nearly as bad as i originally thought. They're the best class at tagging mobs (max distance spammable AoE!), they can have permanent swiftness, and some of the best healing in the game as well (when specced for it). They're also the only class in the game (afaik) that has access to literally every condition without needing sigils or runes. They can literally do everything.

This is what makes balancing engies so tricky. It's insanely easy to OP an engi, since they can literally do everything. And since I've learned how to properly play one, I've started realizing why some of these nerfs needed to happen. Heck, Teldo (the guy in one of the sPvP vids) has recordings of his playtime as an engineer just saying 'man, this is gunna get nerfed, there's no way this won't get nerfed' over and over. A well played engineer atm can literally blow people up (talking about in the blink of an eye). They can literally troll large groups by being nearly impossible to kill, yet still a neussance. They can also be problematic to siege equipment with their mass AoE.

Not going to argue that Thieves aren't OP (though for very different reasons than implied in the video), but the main problem with engineers has been a bug that didn't properly apply stats from your main weapon set to your kits. That's now been fixed.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5078

3/28/13 3:19:45 PM#59

(This is mostly to the OP)

This is so ironic. Prior to launch, I was very skeptical of the GW2 Manifesto. And I recall heated exchanges between people like me and people like Itgrowles. I would question everything from cash shop to incentives for contiuned long term game play. And was quickly countered.  Anyway, launch comes around and I played the game. I quickly felt that my initial suspiscions were correct. I felt the Manifesto was nothing but a media hype blitz with little truth to it, so I quit the game.

While I will still hold many of my initial impressions about the manifesto, and while I continue to maintain that it was way over the top and is a major factor in the massive backlash that ANET recieved after launch. I must admit that I was also somewhat tainted in my 1st impressions of the game. That combined with the perspective of prior MMO experience. I now admit I still didn't take GW2 on its own merit. Regardless of what the Manifesto said the game would be, regardless of what my previos MMO experience said the game should be, I didn't shelve those and take in GW2 for what it did have to offer.

After the holidays, I quit Rift. I am not opposed to paying a Sub if there is value in it, but currently, I don't feel there are any titles worthy of one. So I tried Minecraft for a bit. (That's a different topic though) However, I still missed the MMO. So my only option left was to fire up old GW2 and give it a go since I already had an active account. Here's where I get to my point. I had already accepted that GW2 did not meet my expectations. I had none left for the game to meet. Therefore, I was able to evaluate the game without it needing to live up to any. Here is where I begane to discover that it has many great things to offer that I didn't initially see. Mostly because I didn't allow myself to.

Thing is, most of what you say, I agree with. But I can also see that there is little I can do about it. GW2 is what GW2 is. You have no choice beyond take it or leave it. It's one thing to express your opinions to ANET to let them know your disatisfaction. But there comes a point where you either accept it or move on. No one will question your right to state what you wish here. So long as what you say is factually correct and/or supported. But I think you need to accept the fact that Engineers are broken with no real target date for being fixed. A guy in my guild decided he'd had enough. What could he do? Well, he rolled a Warrior. That sucks after all he'd invested in the Engineer. But what else was there? Take a look at your options and either work within them or walk away.

It's so odd, because I am now having a blast in the game.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4818

3/28/13 3:27:14 PM#60
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Cromica
lol they banned me from the forums for saying that this patch still gives me no reason to log in, the mods over there must be descendants of the stasi.

And so you should be banned for a statement like that.

Seriously... it's like some people never learned the difference between constructive criticism and whining.

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