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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » GW 2 is the perfect example of what I hope CU avoids

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59 posts found
  Tyrsis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/28/10
Posts: 13

3/28/13 10:27:46 AM#21
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by Killsmallchi

"If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight."

This is the point. GW2 made it so it was even across the board. I hate when someone with no skills wins cause they have better armor or abilities. Get good at the game and this will not anger you. If you play alot, it means you are a anti-social, not that you should win every fight.

And that was my point. That kind of system is not what I (and I think many other players) want. There's no PvE and only crafted gear in CU. If the RvR ability system doesn't give you more power (and not just at sieging) the higher ranked you get, then there will be no progression at all in CU. That would make it another boring keep-centric RvR system with no longevity. That's certainly not the kind of game I'm donating to Kickstarter for.

 

Agreed. There must be some sort of player-specific progression in RvR for this game to succeed. It will become stale and boring if you have nothing to work towards - outside the scope of flipping keeps and mindlessly killing people.

  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/28/13 10:28:33 AM#22
Originally posted by Tyrsis
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by Killsmallchi

"If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight."

This is the point. GW2 made it so it was even across the board. I hate when someone with no skills wins cause they have better armor or abilities. Get good at the game and this will not anger you. If you play alot, it means you are a anti-social, not that you should win every fight.

And that was my point. That kind of system is not what I (and I think many other players) want. There's no PvE and only crafted gear in CU. If the RvR ability system doesn't give you more power (and not just at sieging) the higher ranked you get, then there will be no progression at all in CU. That would make it another boring keep-centric RvR system with no longevity. That's certainly not the kind of game I'm donating to Kickstarter for.

 

Agreed. There must be some sort of player-specific progression in RvR for this game to succeed. It will become stale and boring if you have nothing to work towards - other than flipping keeps and mindlessly killing people.

QFT

  Edany

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 187

3/28/13 10:32:07 AM#23
Originally posted by Tyrsis

 

With realm ranks it wasn't necessarily the abilities that made you better in RvR. A RR4 could beat an RR11  - its just a matter of who is behind the keyboard.

 

In DAoC everyone starts off at RR1. The amount of time you played doesn't necessarily mean you will become a higher rank than someone else faster. A skilled player could accumulate 50k realm points in a few hours whereas it would take a less skilled player a few days to get that.

 

DAoC wasn't like other games where you could spend 100 hours getting the best gear or buying a high realm rank character and suddenly be awesome. If you didn't know how to play you were useless. I think the realm point, realm rank and RvR abilities/passives was the best PvP system ever made for a game.

 

There's really no comparison to other games. 

This is really what differentiated DAoC's PvP from all others. In over a decade, no other game has been able to capture or match this concept. Achieving a high RR in DAoC reflected not just your dedication to play time, but was also a reflection on the skill you possessed.

There were no bonus items to help you farm RR any faster, and lower RR players were worth far less RP than higher RR players. When high RR players were rare, it was harder to take them down, but by the same token they had to take out 5 to 8 lower RR people just to get the same amount of points that you would get to take one of them out.

Anything past RR4 or RR5 in those days was a true testament to patience and skill (and I say skill, because you had to be out there in the trenches a hell of a lot in order to hit those higher RRs, which would naturally increase your skill - practice makes perfect and all).

It wasn't easy to get those points and many people would roll a new class before taking their character all the way up to RR8+.

  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

3/28/13 10:38:12 AM#24
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by drakon3

Truste me, name recognition matters.  In the early days of DAoC on Palomides there was a cleric named Tahalien (or something close) that topped most of the RvR stats on the Herald by a good margin.  If someone spotted him anywhere the call would go out and people would go out of their way just to try to kill him.  Fun times. 

 

Back on topic, I agree.  WvW is something I hope CU avoids.  I started losing interest in the game about Jan but kept playing waiting for this epic WvW update.  Well, I gotta say I'm disappointed.  WvW feels more like Zerg vs Zerg in a WoW battleground than it does RvR. 

That is the point - this is not a gang up on people type of PvP.

Who says it won't be a gang up on people type RvR? I think it most certainly will be, due to the open world nature!

1 vs 100 and 100 vs 1 are completely acceptable scenario's. It's a neverending war and your hand will not be held.

 

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur

  Choco1x

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 2

3/28/13 10:42:23 AM#25

What makes me sad is that GW2 isn't a failure, it seems they did what they needed to, to please the masses.  It's a popular game, yet I see SO many problems with it, and ways they could make it better.

I have 3 main problems with GW 2 - The PVE was extensive, but over and stale too quickly. The pvp... well the pvp suffered a lot from not having a dedicated pvp developing team, it was more or less left on the way side. People that bought the game for the pvp and wvw were mostly disapointed, and the pvp content that has been added has done little make it better.

My main problem with gw 2 is the gameplay, combat-wise. The fact they didn't include a dedicated healing/support class/role is what ruined it. When that role is taken out of the game, it changes gameplay fundamentally at a deep level - both for pvp and pve. Not having that role seems to be the popular thing these days, but I don't think people understand exactly how much it changes.

I truly hope CU will include this healer role, as well as a spell casting sytem similar to that of DAoC's. Modern MMO's wouldn't dare consider having a cast system in which everytime a caster got engaged on they were interupted, and virtually useless until they were protected. Think of how having this element drastically changes the gameplay in DAoC. It also allows spell casters to have a dramatically different role compared to spellcasters that don't get interrupted.

Both of these elements are essential to creating gameplay that is similar to DAoC's imo.

  flizzer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1156

3/28/13 10:45:12 AM#26

Wow, everything the OP dislikes about WvW in GW2 I actually like.   I find it fits me perfectly.  Im enjoying the new progressions system.   To each their own.    Hope you find the game you like then.  I am happy here .

  alkrmr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 244

3/28/13 10:53:03 AM#27
Originally posted by meddyck
  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.
           so basically you want bragging rights
  • There is no real point to winning a matchup anyway other than bragging rights.
           so you don't like bragging rights?

 

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/28/13 11:01:15 AM#28
Originally posted by Mortify
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by drakon3

Truste me, name recognition matters.  In the early days of DAoC on Palomides there was a cleric named Tahalien (or something close) that topped most of the RvR stats on the Herald by a good margin.  If someone spotted him anywhere the call would go out and people would go out of their way just to try to kill him.  Fun times. 

 

Back on topic, I agree.  WvW is something I hope CU avoids.  I started losing interest in the game about Jan but kept playing waiting for this epic WvW update.  Well, I gotta say I'm disappointed.  WvW feels more like Zerg vs Zerg in a WoW battleground than it does RvR. 

That is the point - this is not a gang up on people type of PvP.

Who says it won't be a gang up on people type RvR? I think it most certainly will be, due to the open world nature!

1 vs 100 and 100 vs 1 are completely acceptable scenario's. It's a neverending war and your hand will not be held.

 

Ask anyone that played DAoC during the early years.  This type of scenario created some truly EPIC battles. 

  flizzer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1156

3/28/13 11:07:07 AM#29

I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go.   If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that.   I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.)  But revealing names I don't want in GW2.   

 

  dynamicipftw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/12
Posts: 216

3/28/13 11:08:17 AM#30
+1 OP. It is obvious GW2 is made exclusively for casual PvEers. Such a letdown.
  saurus123

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 511

3/28/13 11:10:09 AM#31
Originally posted by drakon3
Originally posted by Mortify
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by drakon3

Truste me, name recognition matters.  In the early days of DAoC on Palomides there was a cleric named Tahalien (or something close) that topped most of the RvR stats on the Herald by a good margin.  If someone spotted him anywhere the call would go out and people would go out of their way just to try to kill him.  Fun times. 

 

Back on topic, I agree.  WvW is something I hope CU avoids.  I started losing interest in the game about Jan but kept playing waiting for this epic WvW update.  Well, I gotta say I'm disappointed.  WvW feels more like Zerg vs Zerg in a WoW battleground than it does RvR. 

That is the point - this is not a gang up on people type of PvP.

Who says it won't be a gang up on people type RvR? I think it most certainly will be, due to the open world nature!

1 vs 100 and 100 vs 1 are completely acceptable scenario's. It's a neverending war and your hand will not be held.

 

Ask anyone that played DAoC during the early years.  This type of scenario created some truly EPIC battles. 

gamers population was more mature then

 

now we ended with lots of kids that dont give a fk about honor and other important stuff

 

showing your name in pvp just gets you lots of pms swearing on your mother and family thats how it is these days

 

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/28/13 11:12:12 AM#32
Originally posted by flizzer

I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go.   If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that.   I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.)  But revealing names I don't want in GW2.   

 

Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2?  There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.

  saurus123

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 511

3/28/13 11:15:52 AM#33
Originally posted by drakon3
Originally posted by flizzer

I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go.   If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that.   I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.)  But revealing names I don't want in GW2.   

 

Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2?  There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.

and do you think it will stop these kids from making an alt on your realm and pm spam you?

  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/28/13 11:19:35 AM#34
Originally posted by saurus123
Originally posted by drakon3
Originally posted by flizzer

I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go.   If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that.   I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.)  But revealing names I don't want in GW2.   

 

Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2?  There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.

and do you think it will stop these kids from making an alt on your realm and pm spam you?

haha so then just /ignore them. I was one of the most popular wizard in daoc and it was very rare that i got pmed with hate even tho everyone hated me from enemies.

There must be names / ranks like in daoc and deathspam ;)

I hate GW 2 for not knowing who I'm killing. For the WvWvW that is changing people who I fight. This is bad, because you don't feel your character at all. You are not connected to enemies and not connected to fame of your character. 

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

3/28/13 11:28:14 AM#35

I disliked the significant RAs from DAOC's RvR progression.

I liked Warhammer's model where the rewards were nominal base stats and had diminishing marginal decay on value (until late in the game where they added the inverse purge, etc).

Not a fan of "must have RR5 for purge / SoS / IP / basic stuff you need to compete".

I like 'some' RvR progression, but I hate barriers to entry.  I think the majority of the progression should be left as titles / aesthetics.  I dislike it when RvR "progression" becomes synonymous with WoW grind.

Of course, player names and deathspam are mandatory.  An integrated Dammaz Kron into the interface would be nice.  Camelotherald is also essential.

Also, the primary bulk of point accrual ("RPs") should be from kills, not "objectives".  Reward players for content (fighting, killing) and they will find where to explore their content.  Let objectives be an [i]optional framework[/i] for the content (fighting, killing).  If players want to use objectives, ok.  If they don't, ok.  As long as they're finding fights, kills, and deaths.

  tiglie

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 30

3/28/13 11:35:32 AM#36
Knowing your enemies creates rivalry, which fuels competitive PvP games, and gives you a reason to play.  Nameless red blobs like GW2 promotes a pseudo PvE experience where everyone is the same and is blandly homogenized.  If you're worried about a few people /whispering you to talk a little shit grow up.  You are the problem of the increasing nanny state of society where everyone wins through participation and noone is allowed to stand above ..... you are the reason everything is so damn boring and homogenized.
  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/28/13 11:40:32 AM#37
Originally posted by saurus123
Originally posted by drakon3
Originally posted by flizzer

I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go.   If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that.   I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.)  But revealing names I don't want in GW2.   

 

Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2?  There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.

and do you think it will stop these kids from making an alt on your realm and pm spam you?

For the most part, yes.  Remember that this is a SUBSCRIPTION based game with realm lockout timers.  So unless someone wants to buy a 2nd account and pay the sub fee, then "making an alt on your realm and pm spam you" won't happen.  And if it does just /ignore and you're fine. 

  flizzer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1156

3/28/13 11:41:51 AM#38
Geez, I thought I was having fun in GW2 but apparently it is all "blandly homogenized"  .  I need to look at the expiration date now.
  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/28/13 11:41:54 AM#39
Originally posted by tiglie
Knowing your enemies creates rivalry, which fuels competitive PvP games, and gives you a reason to play.  Nameless red blobs like GW2 promotes a pseudo PvE experience where everyone is the same and is blandly homogenized.  If you're worried about a few people /whispering you to talk a little shit grow up.  You are the problem of the increasing nanny state of society where everyone wins through participation and noone is allowed to stand above ..... you are the reason everything is so damn boring and homogenized.

QFT

Exactly we need to compete in order to have fun not damn boring next game.

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/28/13 11:42:47 AM#40
Originally posted by EasymodeX

I disliked the significant RAs from DAOC's RvR progression.

I liked Warhammer's model where the rewards were nominal base stats and had diminishing marginal decay on value (until late in the game where they added the inverse purge, etc).

Not a fan of "must have RR5 for purge / SoS / IP / basic stuff you need to compete".

I like 'some' RvR progression, but I hate barriers to entry.  I think the majority of the progression should be left as titles / aesthetics.  I dislike it when RvR "progression" becomes synonymous with WoW grind.

Of course, player names and deathspam are mandatory.  An integrated Dammaz Kron into the interface would be nice.  Camelotherald is also essential.

Also, the primary bulk of point accrual ("RPs") should be from kills, not "objectives".  Reward players for content (fighting, killing) and they will find where to explore their content.  Let objectives be an [i]optional framework[/i] for the content (fighting, killing).  If players want to use objectives, ok.  If they don't, ok.  As long as they're finding fights, kills, and deaths.

You can't look at war's progression and ignore the armor which was the main reason they made the abilities/passives so weak. I'd take daoc's over war any day, but I don't think we'll get a progression system like daoc (long cd actives dominating). I think they'll end up putting a majority of the actives in the class abilities, leaving us with with maybe a handful of actives and passives for progression.

I don't mind a halfway approach, at least when it comes to those mandatory abilities (purge, sos etc), and leave the more interesting abilities for progression (volcanic pillar!).

 

More on topic, gw2 did some interesting things, but they overlooked some basic features and went very casual in their direction. Some like it, and some don't... I can't argue with it even though it's not the way I'd like it to be it still has some happy players. Hell I still play it because there's nothing else atm.

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