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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » ONLY 4 or 5 classes on release! Say it isn't so........

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107 posts found
  Karraptathid

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 80

3/26/13 12:34:38 PM#41
Originally posted by DMKano

Hopefully the class system will be somewhat flexible and not 100% locked into a single role.

I can't tell you how many times in DAoC I wished that I had a main different than my shaman (this was vanilla DAoC before any expansion). I just felt so useless in RvR.

If we have any ability to change roles without having to grind out another toon from level 1, that would be awesome, as I don't have 10 hours to devote a day like I had 10 years ago.

I really like the flexibility of Rifts soul system, you still remain a single class but your role can vary depending on spec.

That would probably be the smart way of doing it as it gives CSE room to develope hybrids as time permits which should dovetail into the increased chaos factor of the CU's theme.  I know MJ talks about having to deal with gimping out toons and the downside of RIFT is having to deal with headache of souls trees (logged into my account the other day, my lvl 49 cleric had a respect and I had zero clue what to do with all the new options), but if we could keep the best possible outcome (and still be able to gimp out the toon) that would allow CSE breathing room for a rapid launch.  This could be the best option even if it's the one and only one track to follow for that class at launch.  As long as the initial track is never allowed to be overshadowed by future tracks/hybrids. 

Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

 
OP  3/26/13 12:59:25 PM#42
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

Sorry if i got a little off-topic there.

but to get back on it, i'd go with 5 classes

Tank, healer, support, DPS, scout/archers

I'd be fine with this as a start.....

IF, and only IF they were as functional(some may say as limited) as those classes in daoc

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

3/27/13 10:15:59 AM#43
Originally posted by Zintair
Originally posted by naezgul

I thought I started playing daoc pretty early in the game. I know ws before SI, I think that was first expansion.

made a scout, when stealth was tough, and he was SB fodder.  

Ok, question is ....how many classes on release per realm? Where there any classes added before an "expansion".

and if anyone really knows...what were original classes.

Armsman/Paladin/Mercenary/Scout/Infiltrator/Wizard/Sorcerer/Thaumatergist/Friar/Cleric/Minstrel/Cabby

Warrior/Thane/Zerker/Hunter/Shadowblade/Runemaster/Spiritmaster/Shaman/Healer/Skald

Hero/Champion/ xxxx /Warden/Eldritch/Mentalist/Enchanter/Druid/Nightshade/Bard

 

think im missing a few.

 

First expansion classes were

Albion: Reaver/Necromancer

Hib: Valewalker/Animist

Mid: Bonehunter/Savage

You forgot the blademaster, but don't feel too bad..they weren't even in the game's manual ;D

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  fanglo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 279

3/27/13 11:28:08 AM#44

To be honest I hope they don't go with Rifts system. On my mage, I can switch from tank to healer to any flavor of dps (pet, dot, sustained dps, burst dps) on the fly. I think it'd be better to focus on a certian aspect and let the player have different ways to attain that role. For example, in DaoC the druid was a healer, you could focus on 100% healing and get awesome heals, or gimp the healing slightly to be a buffer/healer, or pet/healer. No matter which way you chose though, you'd still have the ability to heal and do basic cures (disease/poison)

 

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/27/13 11:52:40 AM#45
Don't worry, fanglo. Choice matters :)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Karraptathid

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 80

3/27/13 11:54:14 AM#46
Originally posted by fanglo

To be honest I hope they don't go with Rifts system. On my mage, I can switch from tank to healer to any flavor of dps (pet, dot, sustained dps, burst dps) on the fly. I think it'd be better to focus on a certian aspect and let the player have different ways to attain that role. For example, in DaoC the druid was a healer, you could focus on 100% healing and get awesome heals, or gimp the healing slightly to be a buffer/healer, or pet/healer. No matter which way you chose though, you'd still have the ability to heal and do basic cures (disease/poison)

 

RIFT went way overboard and it hurt the game IMO.  However, instead of creating new classes in  future expansions in CU, having a new spec option might be the best way forward.  Sort of the middle ground between DAoC and RIFT.  So it would be tank, caster, healer, rogue, and crafter as the five base classes with two or three specs to chose from at launch. 

Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  grogstorm

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/07
Posts: 280

If it ain't broke, dont fix it!

3/27/13 12:07:31 PM#47
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo
Don't forget guys, there is going to be some classes dedicated to crafting. :-) 

This was my thought as well.  That only leaves 3-4 classes per realm :)

And why can't I be a Tank/crafter?

Grog

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

 
OP  3/27/13 11:34:17 PM#48

Dedicated crafter as a class?

if so, this should be held off....3/4 classes ain't gonna cut it......

we gonna bring the crafter along and distract the enemy with all the baubles he is trying to hawk?

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

3/28/13 2:25:49 AM#49
4 or 5 classes could work given the right system was implemented. From what I've read you will gain skill by doing things (I.E. swinging a sword or casting spells). Thus you could have 4 base classes (+1 crafter class) and allow the player to choose what they want to do within that class making the abilities and methods of attack define what exactly class the player becomes.

If you think of Daoc's system at launch you have 4 base classes. I was a Hib thus I'll use their classes for example. You had Guardian, Naturalist, Stalker, and Magician. Thus when a player chose Guardian they were limited to specific item set  to use until they chose their path of specialization. A hero took a beefy defensive/tank ability set (although could DPS) at the cost of range (not that any tank's ranged attacks were worth worrying about except the Armsman RR5 oh noes!), Blademasters (even though most considered meat shields) specialized in pure face melting melee DPS, and Champions attuned themselves to magic but were still granted access to melee weapons for being on a lower hip point table and being easier to crowd control.

Thus a system similar to this could be used. You pick your class, Guardian/Naturalist/Stalker/Magician, then you are given a large choice of paths to follow. The paths you use define what kind of specific class your character becomes. So if a player chooses guardian they would most likely have access to any and all physical attack paths. This isn't to say they wouldn't have the ability to attuned themselves to magic in some way although it would be bad design if they were as powerful as a specialized Magician due to the amount of armor they might be wearing.

Thus let's say the player chooses Guardian but wants to have the ability to use magic also. Naturally as a Guardian they are going have physical damage weapons equipped but because of their magical attunement they gain access to a path which offers abilities similar to that of the Champion Class in Daoc. The ability to do some magical direct damage along with debuffing targets or buffing themselves becomes paired with the ability to use a sword/shield or even a two handed weapon. Players aren't going to all go the same path thus you might have dual wielding Guardians who debuff their targets to make killing easier. Some players hate magic and would focus solely on stabbing the target's face. It works just as well for the other base classes. If there is CC or Speed paths make them available to at least 2 paths on different base classes. So groups aren't forced to have at least one X and one Y to be competitive. Maybe you want a Naturalist attuned to Nature magic which grants healing and buffs. Perhaps a Magician attuned to Nature magic which can summon FoF shrooms and also give the caster Lifetaps (cough cough!). Stalkers would be the same. Stealth path or trickery for wall climbing, safe fall, and such paired with a choice of Bows/Xbows/Throwing or stab you in the face or back daggers/swords/maces/axes/etc. You could even offer a way for stalkers who don't want to focus on stealth alternative paths such as music maybe and create a bard class.

4 base classes paired with a system such as this would allow for players to basically create their own class. I'm sure there would be specific paths which would be more powerful than others but that falls on the Devs to balance correctly. MJ stated choice is going to matter thus good design would want to restrict certain combinations of Paths. Similar to how mages worked in Baldur's Gate. If you chose to specialize in Evocation spells you lost the ability to cast Enchantment spells. Classes aren't going to be mirrored but will abilities like they were in Daoc? IMO figure out the abilities you want then assign them to paths which belong to classes. Players will figure out the rest.

 

 

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/28/13 2:44:01 AM#50
Rock Paper Scissors with customization.

NO mirrored classes.

Racial differentiation.

A good start.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/28/13 9:21:22 AM#51
Originally posted by Karraptathid

RIFT went way overboard and it hurt the game IMO.  However, instead of creating new classes in  future expansions in CU, having a new spec option might be the best way forward.  Sort of the middle ground between DAoC and RIFT.  So it would be tank, caster, healer, rogue, and crafter as the five base classes with two or three specs to chose from at launch. 

I agree with you, a middle ground between DAoC and Rift would be perfect.  I personally loved the Rift soul system.  It was all the other wow-cloned things that led me to quit the game after a couple months.  Granted, I agree they went WAY overboard and allowed all classes to be any archetype.  But I loved being able to add a dash of bard to my rogue, or a little survivability to my Cleric by adding Justicator.  Yes you eventually end up with BiS spec's for each archetype, but the soul system was awesome for people like me that love to tinker with character customization. 

  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/28/13 9:47:37 AM#52
Originally posted by drakon3
Originally posted by Karraptathid

RIFT went way overboard and it hurt the game IMO.  However, instead of creating new classes in  future expansions in CU, having a new spec option might be the best way forward.  Sort of the middle ground between DAoC and RIFT.  So it would be tank, caster, healer, rogue, and crafter as the five base classes with two or three specs to chose from at launch. 

I agree with you, a middle ground between DAoC and Rift would be perfect.  I personally loved the Rift soul system.  It was all the other wow-cloned things that led me to quit the game after a couple months.  Granted, I agree they went WAY overboard and allowed all classes to be any archetype.  But I loved being able to add a dash of bard to my rogue, or a little survivability to my Cleric by adding Justicator.  Yes you eventually end up with BiS spec's for each archetype, but the soul system was awesome for people like me that love to tinker with character customization. 

tinkering was cool, but you didn't feel at all who you are because enemies could be the same classes. Combat was bad because there was almost no interrupts. I almost didn't play rift but i made in calculator specs i would like to play for almost all type of chars lol.

  uncletoma

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 154

3/28/13 9:59:41 AM#53

caster, hidden class, damage dealer.

I hope a speeder such as mnstrel, a support heal/buff class such as friar and a "mercy-like" one.

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

3/28/13 10:41:06 AM#54

For me, the really key things about classes that I am excited about are these:

1. Each realm's classes being different from any other realm's - it makes all the realms have their own character and flavor from the get-go.  Even if you have similar mechanics that have to happen to make gameplay viable, it's the unique combinations and twists on these that make the characters more interesting to play...and more interesting to go up against.  In DAoC, there were a lot of subtle things about an enemy realm's classes that you really didn't get to know until you had either spent a lot of time toe-to-toe with them in Emain, or had gone and played a few of them on another server...or both.  Having spent a lot of time thinking about it over the years, this was one of the most interesting things for me about DAoC.  It really was totally different to be a Hib or a Mid or an Alb...not just PvE zone design or armor skins or  racial makeup or the shape of your cloak, but the totally different way you had to work with your realmmates in battle.  Everything did not just look different, it *felt* different.  And that was fascinating.

2. A commitment to really, really  good class and realm balance at release.  If the game has, say, 4 unique classes per realm at the outset, that's actually twelve flavors of toon that feel quite different from one another to play across the game as a whole  - to say nothing of any customized speccing you are able to do on each of those classes.  That's a lot of choice...even if you stick to basic varients on melee, healer , and various kinds of ranged damage archetypes.  When you start tossing in fun goodies like stealth, crowd control, speed, pets, AE, buffs and debuffs, it gets to be a hoot really fast...but ONLY if it is balanced.

If getting that balance right with available resources means fewer total classes at the outset, that's fine with me.  When the game is balanced, but with interesting, subtle nuances to each realm that it takes a long time to completely figure out, that makes a game that you have to keep thinking about.  Which is what makes games interesting to play, at least for me.

And, also critically,  when *gameplay *is balanced, so that the person who has time to sit through eight-hour raids five times a week can't sit there swatting lesser mortals like flies without any effort (no fun for the swattee...or, honestly, even for the swatter after the initial thrill wears thin) - then, and only then, do you get strategy.  And strategy, my friends, is what makes a game that is still fresh and engaging down the line...because it is never completely the same.  Just when you think you have it mastered, you will come up against someone else's strategy that you haven't encountered before and it will throw you for a loop. 

When it's about strategy, not just uber gear, you are challenged to improve your own strategy to beat it.  When it's all about gear, all you are ultimately challenged to do is talk on Vent and pee in a Coke can.  And if you're a girl, you can't even do the latter. :P

Here's to strategy. :)

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/28/13 10:42:32 AM#55
Originally posted by morfidon

tinkering was cool, but you didn't feel at all who you are because enemies could be the same classes. Combat was bad because there was almost no interrupts. I almost didn't play rift but i made in calculator specs i would like to play for almost all type of chars lol.

Absolutely, I agree 100%.  My point was simply I loved the ability to tinker with spec's and create multiple playstyles with each character by mixing and matching different souls. 

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

 
OP  3/28/13 11:33:23 AM#56
Originally posted by Ncrediblebulk
4 or 5 classes could work given the right system was implemented. From what I've read you will gain skill by doing things (I.E. swinging a sword or casting spells). Thus you could have 4 base classes (+1 crafter class) and allow the player to choose what they want to do within that class making the abilities and methods of attack define what exactly class the player becomes.

If you think of Daoc's system at launch you have 4 base classes. I was a Hib thus I'll use their classes for example. You had Guardian, Naturalist, Stalker, and Magician. Thus when a player chose Guardian they were limited to specific item set  to use until they chose their path of specialization. A hero took a beefy defensive/tank ability set (although could DPS) at the cost of range (not that any tank's ranged attacks were worth worrying about except the Armsman RR5 oh noes!), Blademasters (even though most considered meat shields) specialized in pure face melting melee DPS, and Champions attuned themselves to magic but were still granted access to melee weapons for being on a lower hip point table and being easier to crowd control.

Thus a system similar to this could be used. You pick your class, Guardian/Naturalist/Stalker/Magician, then you are given a large choice of paths to follow. The paths you use define what kind of specific class your character becomes. So if a player chooses guardian they would most likely have access to any and all physical attack paths. This isn't to say they wouldn't have the ability to attuned themselves to magic in some way although it would be bad design if they were as powerful as a specialized Magician due to the amount of armor they might be wearing.

Thus let's say the player chooses Guardian but wants to have the ability to use magic also. Naturally as a Guardian they are going have physical damage weapons equipped but because of their magical attunement they gain access to a path which offers abilities similar to that of the Champion Class in Daoc. The ability to do some magical direct damage along with debuffing targets or buffing themselves becomes paired with the ability to use a sword/shield or even a two handed weapon. Players aren't going to all go the same path thus you might have dual wielding Guardians who debuff their targets to make killing easier. Some players hate magic and would focus solely on stabbing the target's face. It works just as well for the other base classes. If there is CC or Speed paths make them available to at least 2 paths on different base classes. So groups aren't forced to have at least one X and one Y to be competitive. Maybe you want a Naturalist attuned to Nature magic which grants healing and buffs. Perhaps a Magician attuned to Nature magic which can summon FoF shrooms and also give the caster Lifetaps (cough cough!). Stalkers would be the same. Stealth path or trickery for wall climbing, safe fall, and such paired with a choice of Bows/Xbows/Throwing or stab you in the face or back daggers/swords/maces/axes/etc. You could even offer a way for stalkers who don't want to focus on stealth alternative paths such as music maybe and create a bard class.

4 base classes paired with a system such as this would allow for players to basically create their own class. I'm sure there would be specific paths which would be more powerful than others but that falls on the Devs to balance correctly. MJ stated choice is going to matter thus good design would want to restrict certain combinations of Paths. Similar to how mages worked in Baldur's Gate. If you chose to specialize in Evocation spells you lost the ability to cast Enchantment spells. Classes aren't going to be mirrored but will abilities like they were in Daoc? IMO figure out the abilities you want then assign them to paths which belong to classes. Players will figure out the rest.

 

 

Camelot had 10 or 11 classes per realm on start, don't confuse the base classes with actual classes. They got rid of them as they were pointless.

  Cernan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/13/06
Posts: 345

3/28/13 11:48:02 AM#57
Originally posted by naezgul

Dedicated crafter as a class?

if so, this should be held off....3/4 classes ain't gonna cut it......

we gonna bring the crafter along and distract the enemy with all the baubles he is trying to hawk?

Why do you think 3/4 won't cut it.  DAoC had multiple paths for each class.  Spellcasters had 3 primary paths and other classes had even more options with individual weapon type specs.  Been a long time since I played but I can give some ideas:

 

Friar - Buff/staff friar or Healer friar.  Unless you specced healing on the friar it was mostly useless.  However, they had a great group HoT if you did spec that route.  Maybe you wanted to be a primary staff friar or mostly a buffer with a little staff.  A friar could do some great DPS as well.  The Cleric was the same with healing, buffing, or smiting.  One class with completely different styles of play available. 

Tank - Shield spec to 42 for the long duration stun or do you only take shield high enough for intercept?  Every tank had to make that decision.  Do you spec high into 1 handed or do you go all out 2hander.  The Heroes wielding polearms on Mordred were entirely scary to behold.  A tank with scary dps (granted heroes were never initially intended to wield polearms.)

Sorc - Lifedrain/AE root spec, Dot/insta debuff spec, or Mezz/charm spec.  3 entirely different playstyles each with benefits.  Granted once debuffs no longer caused interrupts it wasn't as effective.

Enchanter - PbAE with the heal pet or DD spec with the snare pet.  Pbae was great for keep doors or in a group that was quick with the mezzing.  The DD + snare pet could solo most classes and was entirely annnoying but fun to play.  Personally I had 50 pbae chanter, tons of fun and great for powerleveling friends on curms in the frontier.  I could get a newbie from 1-30 in almost no time at all.

 

Those are just 4 random classes I picked with multiple options for each one.  We have no idea how many spec paths are going to be available for each class.  Remember the archers, ranged classes for each realm with lots of differences.  Midgard hunters could spec for a pet,  Hib Rangers could dual wield in melee or go more into bow, and Alb Scouts had the longest range and ability to spec shield.  Actually the archer class is a great example of how 3 bow users worked completely different in each realm.  4 or 5 classes doesn't mean 4 or 5 paths.  That doesn't mean every tank is stuck with a huge spec in shield.  Once you add realm flavor its going to look like that many more options.

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

 
OP  3/28/13 11:52:50 AM#58
Originally posted by Cernan
Originally posted by naezgul

Dedicated crafter as a class?

if so, this should be held off....3/4 classes ain't gonna cut it......

we gonna bring the crafter along and distract the enemy with all the baubles he is trying to hawk?

Why do you think 3/4 won't cut it.  DAoC had multiple paths for each class.  Spellcasters had 3 primary paths and other classes had even more options with individual weapon type specs.  Been a long time since I played but I can give some ideas:

 

Friar - Buff/staff friar or Healer friar.  Unless you specced healing on the friar it was mostly useless.  However, they had a great group HoT if you did spec that route.  Maybe you wanted to be a primary staff friar or mostly a buffer with a little staff.  A friar could do some great DPS as well.  The Cleric was the same with healing, buffing, or smiting.  One class with completely different styles of play available. 

Tank - Shield spec to 42 for the long duration stun or do you only take shield high enough for intercept?  Every tank had to make that decision.  Do you spec high into 1 handed or do you go all out 2hander.  The Heroes wielding polearms on Mordred were entirely scary to behold.  A tank with scary dps (granted heroes were never initially intended to wield polearms.)

Sorc - Lifedrain/AE root spec, Dot/insta debuff spec, or Mezz/charm spec.  3 entirely different playstyles each with benefits.  Granted once debuffs no longer caused interrupts it wasn't as effective.

Enchanter - PbAE with the heal pet or DD spec with the snare pet.  Pbae was great for keep doors or in a group that was quick with the mezzing.  The DD + snare pet could solo most classes and was entirely annnoying but fun to play.  Personally I had 50 pbae chanter, tons of fun and great for powerleveling friends on curms in the frontier.  I could get a newbie from 1-30 in almost no time at all.

 

Those are just 4 random classes I picked with multiple options for each one.  We have no idea how many spec paths are going to be available for each class.  Remember the archers, ranged classes for each realm with lots of differences.  Midgard hunters could spec for a pet,  Hib Rangers could dual wield in melee or go more into bow, and Alb Scouts had the longest range and ability to spec shield.  Actually the archer class is a great example of how 3 bow users worked completely different in each realm.  4 or 5 classes doesn't mean 4 or 5 paths.  That doesn't mean every tank is stuck with a huge spec in shield.  Once you add realm flavor its going to look like that many more options.

Multiple paths?   A class was a class. They started with 30+ classes.  Don't confuse weapon/spell lines with classes?

  Cernan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/13/06
Posts: 345

3/28/13 12:00:56 PM#59
Originally posted by naezgul
Multiple paths?   A class was a class. They started with 30+ classes.  Don't confuse weapon/spell lines with classes?

 

Who said I was confusing the two?  You said 4/5 classes wouldn't cut it.  I'm saying 4/5 classes doesn't mean 4/5 styles of play.  One class can have multiple styles of play depending on spec paths available.  Guess you didn't understand the point of my post.  I tried to give examples of how ONE class can be played in entirely different ways.  So just because you have one class, doesn't mean it's only one style of play.  Someone else previously asked if tanks could be viable DPS.  2handed Heroes in Hibernia were viable dps, especially on Mordred with polearms.  I gave specific examples.

 

Also lets look at your scenario you just gave with 30+ classes at launch.  So you are considering  each realm's class as individuals.  If you are going to do that then you can't say 4/5 classes won't cut it.  You are contradicting yourself.  Gotta multiply that number by 3.  I'm just using your own logic. Then we have 12-15 classes for CU, not 4/5.  

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

 
OP  3/28/13 12:05:28 PM#60
Originally posted by Cernan
Originally posted by naezgul
Multiple paths?   A class was a class. They started with 30+ classes.  Don't confuse weapon/spell lines with classes?

 

Who said I was confusing the two?  You said 4/5 classes wouldn't cut it.  I'm saying 4/5 classes doesn't mean 4/5 styles of play.  One class can have multiple styles of play depending on spec paths available.  Guess you didn't understand the point of my post.  I tried to give examples of how ONE class can be played in entirely different ways.  So just because you have one class, doesn't mean it's only one style of play.  Someone else previously asked if tanks could be viable DPS.  2handed Heroes in Hibernia were viable dps, especially on Mordred with polearms.  I gave specific examples.

 

Also lets look at your scenario you just gave with 30+ classes at launch.  So you are considering  each realm's class as individuals.  If you are going to do that then you can't say 4/5 classes won't cut it.  You are contradicting yourself.  Gotta multiply that number by 3.  I'm just using your own logic. Then we have 12-15 classes for CU, not 4/5.  

Ok by that token daoc had 100 classes on launch.

i understand what you are saying....I still believe 3 or 4, even 5 classes are not enough to bring back the DYNAMICS and feeling we had with daoc

in theory one class is enough with enough lines/branches to choose from. To me it's symantics

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