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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Crowd Control is a four letter word

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84 posts found
  sweetdigs

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/03
Posts: 199

3/27/13 2:05:14 PM#21
Originally posted by belatucadros

I think anything that actually interferes with your screen would both be more graphically challenging and more frustrating than the actual act of being stuck there.

 

Blind was in EQ1.  Used to be a lot of fun getting blinded by some mobs (hi Estate of Unrest!) or other players on the PVP servers.  Didn't last long and could be dispelled.

Perhaps when you get blinded in CU, it would keep the UI in place and just remove your vision, so that a healer would still be able to see health bars of grouped allies, but as far as using AOE and targeted (directional or cone area) spells, you would be just guessing at the proper area.  Also wouldn't want it to be lengthy in duration.  But at least if you knew you had a melee type closing in on you, you could keep moving and hopefully avoid getting pounded.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/27/13 2:12:30 PM#22

Oh god no, unless you can turn it off. There are plenty of ways you can provide spell effects to see whats going on, not to mention unable to move your character or movement effected.

ZzzZzz above head , and roots wrapping you like daoc were enough, keep them simple and small, anything mentioned about blacking your screen, god no ... god ... no.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/27/13 2:26:29 PM#23
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

i also once suggested a few other spells for CC that could be good.

- Blindess : make target's screen go black for short period of time (new CC spell ?)

- Web : kind of AoE or single target CC that lowers movements and the "physical" stats

- Song of slow motion : kinda like a speed debuff , but would slow the ennemy's speed within a certain radius

- Song of exhaustion : lower (or drain)  the ennemy's endurance regeneration within a certain radius

- Song of dumbness : lower (or drain) the ennemy's mana regeneration within a certain radius

- Water : some kind of AoE CC that would create a small amount of water to appear around the target or ground target, causing slower movement within that radius.

 

There could obviously be some variance to those too (i.e. the songs, but i like the concept too). But these could be some nice forms of CC could fit well in CU.

- neutralise enhancements : neutralising all the bonuses given from all equipment of an ennemy

- Stat swap : short duration spell that would make stats from target and caster to switch; a kind of "debuff" spell...could be fun to see a troll warrior stuck with an elf wizard's stats for 1 minute :D

 

Edit : added 2 ideas i forgot at first

Edit #2 : Crap, chose quote instead ot edit. sorry for double post

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

3/27/13 3:22:13 PM#24
Originally posted by sweetdigs
Originally posted by belatucadros

I think anything that actually interferes with your screen would both be more graphically challenging and more frustrating than the actual act of being stuck there.

 

Blind was in EQ1.  Used to be a lot of fun getting blinded by some mobs (hi Estate of Unrest!) or other players on the PVP servers.  Didn't last long and could be dispelled.

Perhaps when you get blinded in CU, it would keep the UI in place and just remove your vision, so that a healer would still be able to see health bars of grouped allies, but as far as using AOE and targeted (directional or cone area) spells, you would be just guessing at the proper area.  Also wouldn't want it to be lengthy in duration.  But at least if you knew you had a melee type closing in on you, you could keep moving and hopefully avoid getting pounded.

I'm all for game mechanics like this. The timer's on these effects need to be pretty short but I absolutley love game design that emulates the actual impact these type of spells or conditions i.e. blindness - blackness. Many old school DnD spells would be a lot of fun as well (Globe of darkness, grease, Wall line of spells, the list goes on). Chaos, panic, and uncertainty on the battlefield (as well as viable counters/reflects) would be things I'd love to see - I don't have a problem with CC as long as the timer's aren't too long and, if they are a bit longer in duration, it is something the enemy must focus on to maitain (effectively taking him out of the fight as well).  CC and similar things are vital in games like this. Otherwise it boils down to simply which team has numbers more often than not. 

  Set_in_Ink

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 48

3/27/13 3:41:54 PM#25
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Oh god no, unless you can turn it off. There are plenty of ways you can provide spell effects to see whats going on, not to mention unable to move your character or movement effected.

ZzzZzz above head , and roots wrapping you like daoc were enough, keep them simple and small, anything mentioned about blacking your screen, god no ... god ... no.

Agree 110%.  Keep it simple.

'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

  RealLifeGobbo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 218

3/27/13 3:42:40 PM#26
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

i also once suggested a few other spells for CC that could be good.

- Blindess : make target's screen go black for short period of time (new CC spell ?)

- Web : kind of AoE or single target CC that lowers movements and the "physical" stats

- Song of slow motion : kinda like a speed debuff , but would slow the ennemy's speed within a certain radius

- Song of exhaustion : lower (or drain)  the ennemy's endurance regeneration within a certain radius

- Song of dumbness : lower (or drain) the ennemy's mana regeneration within a certain radius

- Water : some kind of AoE CC that would create a small amount of water to appear around the target or ground target, causing slower movement within that radius.

 

There could obviously be some variance to those too (i.e. the songs, but i like the concept too). But these could be some nice forms of CC could fit well in CU.

- neutralise enhancements : neutralising all the bonuses given from all equipment of an ennemy

- Stat swap : short duration spell that would make stats from target and caster to switch; a kind of "debuff" spell...could be fun to see a troll warrior stuck with an elf wizard's stats for 1 minute :D

 

Edit : added 2 ideas i forgot at first

Edit #2 : Crap, chose quote instead ot edit. sorry for double post

I like it!  Instead of dumbness (which is funny BTW), I would opt for a different word... say Torpor.  Fun stuff though.

Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  sweetdigs

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/03
Posts: 199

3/27/13 3:45:20 PM#27
Doubt they will put it in the game, but getting charmed was one of the funniest things that could happen in EQ.  It would force you to start attacking your buddies.  Would love to see a confusion or charm type spell that could be cast that would do the same thing in CU, although with a much more limited duration than the charms could last in EQ1.
  RealLifeGobbo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 218

3/27/13 3:49:37 PM#28

Also related note, this was mentioned on another thead (can't remember which!), but I still liked it.

In WAR, when you detaunted a target, you would take like 50% less damage for a few seconds and they wouldn't have you selected anymore.

Taunting would also force a player to target you instead.

Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

3/27/13 3:51:15 PM#29

CC is  hugely important.  Without it there is very little strategy involved and it just becomes an assist train (which will likely be the case anyhow).

One big thing to consider, there should be no ranged stuns imo.  You should have to sacrifice position to stun someone.  Mez/root/etc aren't as big of a concern since you can't kill someone without response but I think this one limitation could have great effect.

 

Having differnet mechanics for PvE and PvP separately just lends itself to bad/poor creativity.  Just like in DAoC there were plenty of ways to get out of CC.  Also look at some of the games that are actually used as E-Sports; League of Legends comes to mind.  Based around 5v5 combat, stuns are VERY short term, there are multiple ways to break them and this doesn't overpower the champions using them.  WoW handles cc in one of the worst ways which is why, imo, they aren't used for any real E-Sport competitions even though you would logically think they could/would with their following.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  zekeofev

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 222

3/27/13 3:56:49 PM#30
Originally posted by Cirin

CC is  hugely important.  Without it there is very little strategy involved and it just becomes an assist train (which will likely be the case anyhow).

One big thing to consider, there should be no ranged stuns imo.  You should have to sacrifice position to stun someone.  Mez/root/etc aren't as big of a concern since you can't kill someone without response but I think this one limitation could have great effect.

 

Having differnet mechanics for PvE and PvP separately just lends itself to bad/poor creativity.  Just like in DAoC there were plenty of ways to get out of CC.  Also look at some of the games that are actually used as E-Sports; League of Legends comes to mind.  Based around 5v5 combat, stuns are VERY short term, there are multiple ways to break them and this doesn't overpower the champions using them.  WoW handles cc in one of the worst ways which is why, imo, they aren't used for any real E-Sport competitions even though you would logically think they could/would with their following.

League of legends games are entirely about the initiation. Team fights are so short that a 2 second stun is league is comparable to a 6 second stun if everyone had less damage and more hp.

 

I really really really like Mez effects (hard cc like a stun, but it breaks on damage) to add strategy to combat. If Mez durations are long enough, a well coordinated small group can fight off a lesser coordinated larger group (read: Zerg). In fact that is why I loved DAOC so much.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

3/27/13 4:05:40 PM#31

League of legends games are entirely about the initiation. Team fights are so short that a 2 second stun is league is comparable to a 6 second stun if everyone had less damage and more hp.

 

I really really really like Mez effects (hard cc like a stun, but it breaks on damage) to add strategy to combat. If Mez durations are long enough, a well coordinated small group can fight off a lesser coordinated larger group (read: Zerg). In fact that is why I loved DAOC so much.

PVP fights are entirely about the initiation. Team fights are so short that a 2 second stun can be a deciding factor.

 

I'm not sure if you were intentionally being ironic or just didn't realize how what you said directly correlated to any good team fight in DAoC.

 

**edit** Furthermore, it was an example of mechanics in relation to the actual game they are located in.  Not to be taken at face value and saying they should use the same mechanics but more an example of something done right.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  grogstorm

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/07
Posts: 280

If it ain't broke, dont fix it!

3/27/13 4:11:33 PM#32

CC is awesome.  Until it affects me :)

Two things I would like to add to the discussion.

  1. Any character locked in place or slowed realistically should be able to switch weapons and fire from range.  Even if is only my trusty boomerang.
  2. I sure hope there is good visual’s I game so we can see the roots etc. and instantly determine what’s going on. 

Grog

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

3/27/13 4:15:07 PM#33
Originally posted by grogstorm

CC is awesome.  Until it affects me :)

Two things I would like to add to the discussion.

  1. Any character locked in place or slowed realistically should be able to switch weapons and fire from range.  Even if is only my trusty boomerang.
  2. I sure hope there is good visual’s I game so we can see the roots etc. and instantly determine what’s going on. 

Could also have a different system for buffs and debuffs.  Buffs could be icons with mousovers etc..  Could make a setting for debuffs to actually color the outer edges of the screen.

 

Root?  Yellow glow on right.

Mez?  Purple glow on left.

Root?  Orange glow on bottom..

 

etc..

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3705

RIP City of Heroes!

3/27/13 4:26:12 PM#34
Originally posted by sweetdigs

I would like to see some more creative CC.  Not a big fan of stuns/mezzes.

How about a mana drain ability, that dampens the damage of casters in the area of effect or a single target and any spell cast by that target(s) transfers a portion of the casting cost to the mana drain caster.

Or a mana feedback ability, that instead of draining the mana results in damage to any target(s) that attempt to cast a spell in the next (x) seconds.  They can still cast the spell, but they'll suffer damage if they do so.

Short duration silence is another decent option.  Much better than stunning a caster - as the caster can still move and engage in other abilities (may even casters can use wands/staves in this game and hurl magical projectiles from the wand similar to a bow).

Then, you could have abilities that counter physical damage types.  Blind - makes their screen go dark briefly or just reduces their chance to hit.  Snare/mud - slows their movement.  Weakness - greatly reduces the physical damage of the target for a short period of time.   You could have a cripple attack that reduces the damage of your target.  You could have a daze attack that prevents the caster you hit with an arrow or blow either from being able to cast at all or reduces the effectiveness of cast spells.

How about being able to throw up flame walls?  Ice slicks?  Scouts/rogues to drop traps.  Etc etc.

I also like the idea of being able to put short-duration damage shields around certain characters on your team.

Basically I think there is so much more potential depth in the area of "CC" than just roots/snares/mez/stuns.  I think the best game would not have any "stuns" or "mezzes" which remove the character entirely from being able to do anything.  Better to debuff/snare, whether the ability/spell is single target or AE.

And then there are all the new buildings that could potentially be built in cities, forts, or just around the world at strategic locations.  Magic dampeners, magic boosters, towers that strengthen nearby troops, towers that weaken, towers that speed or slow movement in the area. 

How about towers that cast a haze around the area to make it more difficult to hit or reduce sight in the area which would really make things crazy and result in mostly melee or close ranged combat. 

 Just curious, do you fall into the I hate CC crowd?  Your "More creative" bit sounds like you are trying to get around CC because you hate it. 

  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/27/13 4:34:26 PM#35

In order to make game pleasurable there must be CC like mezz and stuns. But the time of stun should be lower than in daoc or people would need a bit more HP like 120%.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6960

3/27/13 4:43:08 PM#36

CC has never killed anyone. It's the dmg done while CCd

 

CC is good.  Without it, you have button mashing spamfests

 

  dotdotdash

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/01/11
Posts: 343

3/27/13 4:56:50 PM#37

CC is and always has been fine.

The problem the cast majority of players have is that they feel that having control taken away from them is "unfair". It is, but only if you haven't bothered to play to the strengths of your class (strengths that allow you to either actively or passively mitigate the effect CC is going to have on you).

In classic WoW, for example, Shadow Priests could "chain fear" according to most people. The reality was, of course, that they couldn't do this at all to a cogent, intelligent player. Fear effects suffered from DRs, and once the third fear had been cast the impact it was going to have on the rest of the fight became negligible. The REAL problem was that most people just didn't want to or couldn't learn how to deal with it; the idea of allowing a CC to "run" until completion was lost on a lot of people because they'd made the simple and false assumption that CC had to be broken at all times. The idea that you could allow the second fear to play out without interruption, saving on of your CC breakers for a further point in the fight when it was more valuable, just didn't get through. So Blizzard went about nerfing CC out of the game to appease those players who just refused to play properly at the time.

So yeah... I've yet to find a game where CC is as big of a problem as everyone seems to make it out to be. The real problem is that developers don't spend enough time encouraging players to look at the meta involved with crowd control, which leads to a large volume of people just not knowing what they're doing or should be doing at any given time.

There's also this idea that "only elitists like CC because it lets them be overpowered", which is of course utter nonsense. "Elitists/Veterans/Pros" or whatever else you want to call them are subjected to the effects of CC as much as everyone else; the reason they don't BROADLY complain is because 99/100 times the problem isn't CC, but the player. When I lose a fight to another player and CC is involved, it's generally because >I< have failed to mitigate the CC in an intelligent way and rarely because CC has given that players an inherent advantage.

More CC, I say. More CC, and more encouraging people to play properly through easy-to-learn, hard-to-master game design philosophies.

For the record, I've given up on Camelot Unchained. It looks almost totally uninspiring and I doubt it'll hit its funding goals.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3026

3/27/13 4:59:49 PM#38
That's what Determination was for :)  i never had much of a problem with CC on my warrior, but I did have a problem with a wizard who could two shot a tank :S

Best Game Ever? Highest game rated on Metacritic!

  dynamicipftw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/12
Posts: 216

3/27/13 5:00:40 PM#39
The only unbalanced CC in DAoC was nearsight (2 min, doesn't break on dmg, couldn't be dispelled for the first few years). Everything else was perfect. Best CC system of any MMO by far IMO.
  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/27/13 5:03:41 PM#40
Originally posted by dotdotdash

CC is and always has been fine.

The problem the cast majority of players have is that they feel that having control taken away from them is "unfair". It is, but only if you haven't bothered to play to the strengths of your class (strengths that allow you to either actively or passively mitigate the effect CC is going to have on you).

In classic WoW, for example, Shadow Priests could "chain fear" according to most people. The reality was, of course, that they couldn't do this at all to a cogent, intelligent player. Fear effects suffered from DRs, and once the third fear had been cast the impact it was going to have on the rest of the fight became negligible. The REAL problem was that most people just didn't want to or couldn't learn how to deal with it; the idea of allowing a CC to "run" until completion was lost on a lot of people because they'd made the simple and false assumption that CC had to be broken at all times. The idea that you could allow the second fear to play out without interruption, saving on of your CC breakers for a further point in the fight when it was more valuable, just didn't get through. So Blizzard went about nerfing CC out of the game to appease those players who just refused to play properly at the time.

So yeah... I've yet to find a game where CC is as big of a problem as everyone seems to make it out to be. The real problem is that developers don't spend enough time encouraging players to look at the meta involved with crowd control, which leads to a large volume of people just not knowing what they're doing or should be doing at any given time.

There's also this idea that "only elitists like CC because it lets them be overpowered", which is of course utter nonsense. "Elitists/Veterans/Pros" or whatever else you want to call them are subjected to the effects of CC as much as everyone else; the reason they don't BROADLY complain is because 99/100 times the problem isn't CC, but the player. When I lose a fight to another player and CC is involved, it's generally because >I< have failed to mitigate the CC in an intelligent way and rarely because CC has given that players an inherent advantage.

More CC, I say. More CC, and more encouraging people to play properly through easy-to-learn, hard-to-master game design philosophies.

For the record, I've given up on Camelot Unchained. It looks almost totally uninspiring and I doubt it'll hit its funding goals.

I'm almost sure that it will get over 4$ milion on  KS. I can bet on it. You wil be surprised. I'm sure it will be funded in first day.

This game will have interrupts and good CC. This game is the game we are waiting for.

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