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News & Features Discussion  » [Interview] Camelot Unchained: KickStarter Tiers Community Q&A

17 posts found
  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 13749

 
OP  3/26/13 5:54:39 PM#1

After yesterday's exclusive Camelot Unchained developer blog that discussed reward tiers for backing the KickStarter campaign, the community here at MMORPG.com was filled with questions. We sent in several and have the answers for you today! Read on!

Edany:  Also, the $200 mark is "pure alpha" access, but the $250 tier is "beta 2"? So is that access to both Alpha and Beta 2? Or is there a slight mixup on the access levels? Maybe it’s too early and I'm being a tard.

Mark Jacobs: LOL, not at all, it’s a good question. In our testing regime, anyone who gets into an earlier stage of the test (alpha before beta 1, beta 1 before beta 2) will automatically be in the next round. Part of our goal is to ramp up the number of beta testers in each round to really stress the game before launch.

Read more of our Camelot Unchained: KickStarter Tiers Community Q&A.

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  Devilmario

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/11/13
Posts: 18

3/26/13 6:21:20 PM#2

with the transition of many sub-based MMOs to F2P or simply the fact that no MMORPG will last forever -, well, maybe except for WoW.

Wonder why he didnt say SWTOR.

  wutae

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/03
Posts: 70

3/26/13 6:42:28 PM#3

I am pretty sure people will want to know before kickstarter if the game is action or tab targetting based, myself i really hope for a tab targetting system, as it allows more strategic play.

Many people will oppose to my opinion, but please dont overeact, it's just my personal opinion, action based combat is what the name itself says, action based, between 20 people in front of u, it's extremely hard to target that single person you want to nuke down and having your fellow caster to nuke the same target as well.

As always just my personal opinion

The tip for
The win is
cooperation.

  saker

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 913

Make a WORLD,
Not a Game.

3/26/13 7:25:05 PM#4
People make a fuss about the "definition" of pay-to-"win", as far as I'm concerned it's very clear, very easy. If you're buying advantage it's pay-to-"win". Some of these "games" manage to conceal this, try and claim they aren't but if you're buying advantage it's pay-to-"win".
  adam_nox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2072

3/26/13 9:38:38 PM#5
One major advantage of reticle targetting it to prevent nuking people in the back. Meatshields should be allowed to shield. For that to work you need reticle targetting, collision detection, and it would be even better if all melee chars could trip or get bonus crit attacks against enemies that try to move past them. (Positional bonuses would pretty well emulate this effect)
  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

3/26/13 10:06:44 PM#6
Originally posted by saker
People make a fuss about the "definition" of pay-to-"win", as far as I'm concerned it's very clear, very easy. If you're buying advantage it's pay-to-"win". Some of these "games" manage to conceal this, try and claim they aren't but if you're buying advantage it's pay-to-"win".

I agree.  Some of these tiers offer real physical advantages and / or are poorly thought out.

The extra character slot for example:

Will there be a shared bank?  If so, you have just given people additional storage slots.

- But anyone can buy an additional character slot after release?  Then the "Founders" reward isn't.  So, the only way to do this is make the Founders extra character slot over and above what can ever be purchased in game - so that makes it a real in game advantage no matter how you look at it... unless there is no shared bank... which is also fine but will upset a lot of people too.

 

Buut this made me go "what the...?"

Daizzed: What I would really like to know is how much 1 FP will buy at the founder's store. For example, how many FP to reserve my name etc. ? This will definitely be a big part of my decision as to how many extra FP to buy if at all.

Mark Jacobs: This is one of the perks that we might have to remove before the Kickstarter, but then discuss with our backers (though I want to get feedback sooner of course). The ability to reserve a name is very important to some people, but it can also lead to disappointed players if they can’t get the one they want, or worse, pay for it and they can’t. In terms of the latter, the reason it isn’t in the tiers right now is because if we have more people who want to reserve names than the names themselves, our backers will be disappointed.

OTOH, if we allow players to use their FPs to reserve the name prior to launch, then people are happy. If they can’t reserve the name they want, they can always use the points for something else. The other problem is pricing. If it's too easy to reserve a name, everybody will try to. If it's too expensive, then people will be upset. That’s why it may be simpler to talk to our backers about the actual pricing after the Kickstarter funds.

So... aside from the red herring of reserving a name we are left with:

Daizzed: What I would really like to know is how much 1 FP will buy at the founder's store. ... This will definitely be a big part of my decision as to how many extra FP to buy if at all.

Mark Jacobs: This is one of the perks that we might have to remove before the Kickstarter, but then discuss with our backers (though I want to get feedback sooner of course). ... ...That’s why it may be simpler to talk to our backers about the actual pricing after the Kickstarter funds.

Which reads to me as "FP may be worth lots - or it may be worth nothing... we will tell you AFTER we have your money!"

'Bait and Switch' much?

I am increasingly disappointed with the direction Kickstarter has gone lately... and I certainly hope that kickstarter look at this closely in particular with reference to their own rules;

*Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.

*Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

It seems to me the offering of "FP" as a reward should not be allowed because;

The value of a "FP" is undefined and potentially nil.

It essentually turns a Kickstarter funding drive into a Microtransaction Shop.

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  supergfunk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 92

3/26/13 11:04:57 PM#7
Yes, I am a bit concerned about whether or not to contribute at this point.  I've read through all the tiers several times and it just seems to me that it's all just fantasy at this point. If I'm going to contribute then I need  guarantees about what "exactly" that I'm investing in and what the "real" value constitutes upon the release of the game.

  SaintWalker44

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 87

3/27/13 12:43:47 AM#8

Ive learned my lesson a long ass time ago...

 

I will never EVER put up cash for a game that has yet to prove itself....

 

Ill leave that to the other gullible/naive players........lol...

 

When you give, please donate extensively...TY!

All Will Be Well.....

  Eluwien

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/07/08
Posts: 169

3/27/13 2:02:47 AM#9

Not a dime to KS before seeing some ingame art / screenshot type of thing that shows the art style and direction. Absolute minimum is to show and prove that we're not looking at another cartoon/D3/WOW/Asian art & scenery. I trust MJ's team, but it must be seen to be believed after D3

 

Giving FP through KS, without revealing the price tags of purchable goods = "Have some of this curreny I invented, which value I decide later" = Cheating. Its simply worse than micro transactions for obvious reasons. I simply consider all FP related KS perks as zero value, as should everybody else. At least until FP price tables have been published.

 

Cosmetic starter armors & weapons are also of zero value, as they are time relevant, deteriorate in value in fixed period and are then "suggested" to be destroyed. Compared to Founders Statue, Wall Plaque and even Forum Tags, these starter items are without worth. More "forever staying" solutions should be considered, things you can have after 5 years of playing to have visible showing that you were there at pre-launch. Otherwise, everyone should consider these items to be  of zero worth.

 

Math says that 110$ tier is most optimal for Beta and 250$ tier with 3 years has most value assuming game stays subscription based for 3 years (and you play those years). None of the physical tiers show value above the Collectors Edition most likely coming around launch. That CE probably has more goodies, and costs less than Digital Pledge + CE combined.

 

2001 we were mere gamers, now 12 years later we're adults with adult understanding of economics, and with adult wallets. CSE should consider offering actual investment offers or IPO. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5578841#5578841

 


WHO - Online 08-10
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Also played : AC, EQ, EQ2, DDO,
Cabal, D&L, GW, LA2, Ryzom
Shaiya, SWG, Allods
Waiting : DAoC2

  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/27/13 6:31:59 AM#10
Mark doesn't need to worry about CU going F2P. Look at daoc even tho there isn't many people left its' still P2P ;) So that accounts that will be given at 250$ tier with life subscription i'm sure will last for at least 15 years.
  CExy

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 26

3/27/13 7:47:01 AM#11

@Eluwien, early art of D3 wasn't anywhere near the cartoony art of the beta's... 

Also assuming a CE will hold more goodies than the physical tiers, well, you know what they say: "Assumption is the mother of all fuckups".

Your view on FPs is spot on, it's worth nothing until proven otherwise. Actually that also goes for the entire project ;)

  Eluwien

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/07/08
Posts: 169

3/27/13 8:45:14 AM#12

@CExy

Cant argue with the D3 fact. The art direction changed over the developement. In the other hand, they did not ask KS money with those art releases and at least early art direction showing pics or video would give some content to evaluate the likelyhood of enjoying the product to which you'd be pledging your excess capita.

 

Assuming CE holding more goodies can be wrong. However, 110$ tier + CE cost + Buying the ones missing from ebay is very likely to still be less than the Physical tiers cost, making them redundant.

 

The whole project, especially at KS stage could be considered to be zero value. But as we are here to look at it, we're considering even the mere idea to have some innate value.As the idea itself is worth pledging money for, the rest comes down to emphatizing that the KS tiers should reflect actually proven future value. That is what I'm ultimately trying to state here, we need more released material and FP price lists before anything can be considered more than just money sunk'd for a dream. 

 
 


WHO - Online 08-10
WoW - Online since launch.
LOTR-O - Online 06-08
EVE - Online 07-Now
DAoC - Online 01-Now
Also played : AC, EQ, EQ2, DDO,
Cabal, D&L, GW, LA2, Ryzom
Shaiya, SWG, Allods
Waiting : DAoC2

  Mystais

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/04
Posts: 73

N/A

3/27/13 8:59:24 AM#13

Wow, I remember back in the day when beta tests were free and were for testing B2P/subscription based games.  Now you have to pay $200?!   A few years ago, $200 would get you the game and a subscription for over a year.  Yeesh.  Even if this is sub based, are you paying your lifetime sub even before Kickstarter, without even a screenshot to go on?  Whoops, apparently you have to pay (errr... donate) $1250 to get a 'lifetime' subscription.    ... not even a screenshot, just hype.

I guess the Kickstarter genie is out of the bottle and now it seems these newer Kickstarter entries are milking the gullable gaming community for every penny their worth, and then some. Over-hype is bad mmmkay.  It's not just a tool to sell more boxes but now a means to deceive you out of some really serious money with really not a damned thing to show for it.

Not to mention the hype for this game is getting close to rivalling the previous hype for GW2... and the game has not even reached Kickstarter yet.

$5000-$10000 for a private server?  You mean virtual server, I assume.  Wowzers!  *cough*gullable*cough* Even The War Z only charges about $35 to $60 per month for their private servers. 

As the saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted."  My hat is off to Mr. Jacobs for building the hype for this game so astronomically high even before opening the Kickstarter campaign.  Smart.

Is this the precedent we want set for future Kickstarter game developement?  Really?  If this becomes the case, give me the faceless corporate publisher any day.

Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.

  User Deleted
3/27/13 10:14:55 AM#14
Kickstarter is going to ruin gaming.
  Laec

Novice Member

Joined: 2/18/13
Posts: 11

3/27/13 10:34:38 AM#15
Originally posted by Chief021
Kickstarter is going to ruin gaming.

While this is a possibility, one could argue gaming is already ruined anyway with these massive shops like EA eating up all the smaller dev shops that make a good game and turn it into a fanchise for profit that goes downhill and ends up sucking big time...

  logonmas

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/04
Posts: 11

3/27/13 6:04:24 PM#16

I'm kind of happy with the direction they're going for KS so far.  I don't see anything really OP or game breaking that they're offering and it's more donating to see the game made.  The perks aren't outstanding but for me...seeing the game made will be more important than anything because it sounds awesome. However, I would like to see the higher tiers offer more subscription months, like the alpha access tier maybe offer a year subscription.  Totally would be instant donate for me.

 

I don't think KS is ruining gaming really but giving games that wouldn't be made otherwise, a chance ot be made.  It takes time and money to make games and seeking a major publisher to make anything other than a WoW Clone is a futile effort it seems. They're willing to spend a lot of money making a WoW-Clone with very few non-WoW elements but basically the same game over and over.  The only way we'd see otherwise is someone with a s-ton of money blindly investing in a project because they believe in it. 

Having an IPO/stock options would suck. The funding might be a lot more than 2 million to get an IPO, then you have higher operating costs because all of the book keeping/reporting/etc needed.  Also, their stock value would be absolute crap since they only have one mobile game out so far so they would experience likely 2 years of losses that they would have to report until the game is made.  Stock holders likely wouldn't be too thrilled with that. Also, targeting a niche market would further reduce the likelihood that stocks would ever skyrocket.  This means that it would be very likely a zero-sum gain at best.

God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.

  kharzan

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/04
Posts: 15

3/28/13 5:45:38 AM#17
Glad Mark answered my question, although I'm a little unclear still. If you 'salvage' one of your special $110 items, do you keep the unusual/unique appearance of it, or are you essentially melting it down to iron/copper and then just cracking on with building something else?