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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Richard Garriott “I think most game designers really just suck”

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116 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/22/13 4:16:59 PM#101
Originally posted by Aeolyn
 

Hmm a has been?  Who's being pompous now?  Aren't all pre-orders just a promise?  As for you actually paying for a game, that alone is worth me investing in one to see(runs to see if the KS is still accepting "donations"). :)

has-been is defined by old sucess and no new success ... isn't that what he is. Tell me, what is his recent success. Anything?

Pre-orders is not just a promise because a) you can cancel it, and b) you don't have to pay a dime. There is no financial risk to pre-order.

No you are not paying for a game. You are paying for a possibility of a game. There is a huge difference. There is no guarantee. In fact, let me illustrate it. Pay me $10. I may be paying you back $11, or $9 or not at all. That is the deal you are making. .

  Aeolyn

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 138

3/22/13 4:35:50 PM#102
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aeolyn
 

Hmm a has been?  Who's being pompous now?  Aren't all pre-orders just a promise?  As for you actually paying for a game, that alone is worth me investing in one to see(runs to see if the KS is still accepting "donations"). :)

has-been is defined by old sucess and no new success ... isn't that what he is. Tell me, what is his recent success. Anything?

Pre-orders is not just a promise because a) you can cancel it, and b) you don't have to pay a dime. There is no financial risk to pre-order.

No you are not paying for a game. You are paying for a possibility of a game. There is a huge difference. There is no guarantee. In fact, let me illustrate it. Pay me $10. I may be paying you back $11, or $9 or not at all. That is the deal you are making. .

Haha, but the difference is that I don't trust you as much as I trust someone who has already given me what I wanted, albeit in the distant past.  At least I know that that someone knows what I want, whereas you may or may not and from your post history, really don't care either way.   

 

Re his recent success, well I suppose you could call pulling off the KS campaign in such short order pretty successful and it's not like he's doing it all alone, there are a few other well-knowns with their names and reps on the line too.

 

As for cancelling preorders, yea, if done in cash at the store will almost always be in the form of a credit, seldom do you get your cash back so unless you do it online and then cancel your form of payment it's the same as KS where until the end of the KS campaign you're supporting, you are able to cancel your pledge(KS is very upfront about the possibility that it may end up giving nothing but otoh, if all works out, you do get some reward that those who chose not to support it won't, ever.)

  Souldrainer

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/06
Posts: 1878

3/23/13 5:13:08 AM#103
Originally posted by Volgore

I just stumbled upon this on PCGamer: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/19/richard-garriott-game-designers-suck/

I think for someone with a failed Tabula Rasa in his record and the need for a kickstarter for his new title, he is rolling up some heavy artillery there.

Have fun :)

 

 

This is coming from the guy who abandoned Tabula Rasa in its most critical phase of development to go to space camp, then came nack and acted shocked. Yeah, no. He is an arrogant bastard and I'm not seeing any signs that he learned from his mistakes with TR.

Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1873

3/23/13 7:38:43 AM#104

irony, tabula rasa was horrible

UO was a pretty bad game too imho, no offense to the fans

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

3/23/13 10:28:21 AM#105
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
Regardless of who he is... I kinda agree. I just choose not to ridicule without cause.

I will however make allowances for the difficulty of funding modern games, investor tampering, corporate money mongering and political problems as other serious obstacles to the improvement of games, its hard to say if its the designers fault, or just circumstances...

Being in the field,  you are close, but designers fault most of the time NO, I'm a gamer and become a Game Designer because I disliked what I saw, but after working  in the industry, you  have all these brick walls in your way and big ones most not your fault, One Gamers need to stop buying games that dislike, this would stop one brick wall for designers, that way Investors wouldn't be so scared to try something new, which most investor see a new idea and say NOPE that won't work its never been done and run for it...   This is a major issue  in the industry , so its partly our fault as the Gamer.... They  prolly don't even know it, but it is..

 

Investors will give money for one reason to make money if they see games like WOW, making money or a WOW clone and if you have idea like it and the work to show  what you can do, they will go for it, ideas like Xsyon, DARKfall, Mortal online, are different type of game and not money makers , they could be, but lack experince and backing so that's why they never do as well as they could...   Indies can do a great job because Software is being more affordable for indies which I think it's great and will open more doors, but sadly alot of people refuse to make MMORPG's as much, because you can make something better small scale and with little money, so why make an MMO???/?   I love them more than the next guy they call me MR MMO, at school and work, because I played so many, plus I have worked on some, but would I work on them again, yes and No, people complain to much and always blame the DEVS, they have little to no say....  I wish for once all Gamers would get an education in Game Production so they could see what I mean, I did and I was the same as everyone else before I did so .....

 

The real difference is that some games are designed by Businessmen, for a profit...  while other games are designed by Enthusiasts. 

 

 

btw:

Richard Garriot was a roleplayer, before he was a CEO & Astronaught.  <-- that is the difference & why most Developer's really suck.

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/23/13 11:42:13 AM#106
Originally posted by Aeolyn
 

Haha, but the difference is that I don't trust you as much as I trust someone who has already given me what I wanted, albeit in the distant past.  At least I know that that someone knows what I want, whereas you may or may not and from your post history, really don't care either way.   

 Why do you have to trust me? I am not asking for you trust, nor your money. BTW, LB is asking for you money, he cares less about your trust.

Re his recent success, well I suppose you could call pulling off the KS campaign in such short order pretty successful and it's not like he's doing it all alone, there are a few other well-knowns with their names and reps on the line too.

Success in conning people? Tell me ... where is his recent success in creating games?

 

As for cancelling preorders, yea, if done in cash at the store will almost always be in the form of a credit, seldom do you get your cash back so unless you do it online and then cancel your form of payment it's the same as KS where until the end of the KS campaign you're supporting, you are able to cancel your pledge(KS is very upfront about the possibility that it may end up giving nothing but otoh, if all works out, you do get some reward that those who chose not to support it won't, ever.)

You can't cancel your pledge after they take your money and spend it, can you?

 

  Aeolyn

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 138

3/24/13 12:56:23 AM#107
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aeolyn
 

Haha, but the difference is that I don't trust you as much as I trust someone who has already given me what I wanted, albeit in the distant past.  At least I know that that someone knows what I want, whereas you may or may not and from your post history, really don't care either way.   

 Why do you have to trust me? I am not asking for you trust, nor your money. BTW, LB is asking for you money, he cares less about your trust.

Re his recent success, well I suppose you could call pulling off the KS campaign in such short order pretty successful and it's not like he's doing it all alone, there are a few other well-knowns with their names and reps on the line too.

Success in conning people? Tell me ... where is his recent success in creating games?

 

As for cancelling preorders, yea, if done in cash at the store will almost always be in the form of a credit, seldom do you get your cash back so unless you do it online and then cancel your form of payment it's the same as KS where until the end of the KS campaign you're supporting, you are able to cancel your pledge(KS is very upfront about the possibility that it may end up giving nothing but otoh, if all works out, you do get some reward that those who chose not to support it won't, ever.)

You can't cancel your pledge after they take your money and spend it, can you?

 

"Pay me $10. I may be paying you back $11, or $9 or not at all. That is the deal you are making."

That sure sounds to me like you're asking me to trust you to give me back my money, at least as much as SotA is asking for a pledge where I may get(depending on my "donation"), a free copy of the game, guaranteed access to both Alpha and Betas, special titles, unique tunic, founder weapons, a pet, a rent-free forever house in a village, town or city, collecter edition, physical collectibles, etc etc etc should the game succeed and at worst nothing, same as you. 

 

Well let's see, if you base your purchasing on only stuff  that's only being made by people and companies that have a track record for making said stuff, how is innovation supposed to occur?  Gee, just think, absolutely none of the changes you champion for morphing games would ever occur because noone has ever done it before....   btw, when was the last time you successfully created and published a game?  Surely you must've to have given you the hutzpa to ridicule someone who has already done so and more than once in his life, "Creator, Producer and Designer of the Ultima Series
Akalabeth, Ultima I - IX, Ultima Online", gee isn't that like 11 games? 

 

The point is still, I trust him and his team to give us another game worth playing but if you don't that's up to you, I would just like to know why the sudden concern for other people giving their money to a cause they believe in.  Hey, my folks tithe regularily to support some guy and his large family preaching to them about the end of the world but it's their money and that's their choice.

 

Nope, once the pledges go through it's done and we can only hope they follow through, just like once I order anything online I just have to hope the postal system delivers it to me and it doesn't get "lost".

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 297

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/24/13 1:36:21 AM#108
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
Regardless of who he is... I kinda agree. I just choose not to ridicule without cause.

I will however make allowances for the difficulty of funding modern games, investor tampering, corporate money mongering and political problems as other serious obstacles to the improvement of games, its hard to say if its the designers fault, or just circumstances...

Being in the field,  you are close, but designers fault most of the time NO, I'm a gamer and become a Game Designer because I disliked what I saw, but after working  in the industry, you  have all these brick walls in your way and big ones most not your fault, One Gamers need to stop buying games that dislike, this would stop one brick wall for designers, that way Investors wouldn't be so scared to try something new, which most investor see a new idea and say NOPE that won't work its never been done and run for it...   This is a major issue  in the industry , so its partly our fault as the Gamer.... They  prolly don't even know it, but it is..

 

Investors will give money for one reason to make money if they see games like WOW, making money or a WOW clone and if you have idea like it and the work to show  what you can do, they will go for it, ideas like Xsyon, DARKfall, Mortal online, are different type of game and not money makers , they could be, but lack experince and backing so that's why they never do as well as they could...   Indies can do a great job because Software is being more affordable for indies which I think it's great and will open more doors, but sadly alot of people refuse to make MMORPG's as much, because you can make something better small scale and with little money, so why make an MMO???/?   I love them more than the next guy they call me MR MMO, at school and work, because I played so many, plus I have worked on some, but would I work on them again, yes and No, people complain to much and always blame the DEVS, they have little to no say....  I wish for once all Gamers would get an education in Game Production so they could see what I mean, I did and I was the same as everyone else before I did so .....

Yeah, it's kinda obvious, I did some study back in the day on the process and control behind game making, particularly MMOs, at first I thought I was just smart for coming up with hundreds of improvements on the classic MMO, than I just realized, nobody can be that stupid, even if their talentless fools, they've experienced quality games and know how to rip them off. I don't even remember the results of my poking around, but I realized that investors, citing production deadlines and emphasis on bad or irrelevant priorities were the real hinderance to the genre.

And how could they not be? It cost a lot of money... It's the number one reason I didn't consider getting an education in and pursuing game design professionally, I honestly don't think there's much to learn about game design from a school which you can't learn naturally by personal studying, Classes in CCNA taught me that. But more than that, an education is just a qualification to work for someone else, someone who is going to maintain the ignorant and uninspired status quo of the genre. It's only because of endless failures and heavy data proving repetition isn't successful which has allowed the next generation of MMOs to appear, but they will still invest based on ignorant statistics and profit blindness.

If I really want to make a game which lives up to my quality, I'll have to make it myself... and by make it myself, I mean be the investor, because programers and artist can be funded, but control and direction isn't a talent you need to find in school, it's a cost you need to fund. In that respect, RG is far more ignorant than he imagines. He should have realized from his previous blunder and the vast sum of money and time he spent trying to make an ideal game without being able to achieve it within budget. You can't just do whatever and spend professional talent like it's some privilage, it's funded. An intelligent game designer will respect the cost and limitations of producing a game, and find a solution that works, not aim for some unobtainable expectation that can't be done within budget. If he has to blow enough money to make 2 MMOs while restarting his project because he couldn't come up with a quality system to begin with, he's clearly not that hot. Anybody can make the best game given unlimited money and time to experiement, start over, and keep trying til your successful, but that's not a realistic situation now is it?

All that said, I still feel game developers are rather unimpressive. There are simple mechanical alterations that are extremely subtle which could vastly enhance gameplay by just rearranging and implementing small factors. It's often something as remote as exchanging some functions on certain roles, or adding a small layer of involvement to make the gameplay more satisfying, and many of them don't even have a real impact on the outcome, they just make it feel more gratifying. But that's a whole nother subject about how programmers and graphic artists pursue gameplay designer roles by becoming qualified as builders...

I have my own business... and I'll just have to muster up about 33 million at some point before I'm senial and do it myself...

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/24/13 11:08:00 AM#109
Originally posted by Aeolyn

That sure sounds to me like you're asking me to trust you to give me back my money, at least as much as SotA is asking for a pledge where I may get(depending on my "donation"), a free copy of the game, guaranteed access to both Alpha and Betas, special titles, unique tunic, founder weapons, a pet, a rent-free forever house in a village, town or city, collecter edition, physical collectibles, etc etc etc should the game succeed and at worst nothing, same as you. 

 No difference than LB asking you to give you back a game .. none of those things .. free copy, alpha, beta .... are guarantee to happen. His company can go down without producing anything. Or just decide to do something else. There is nothing you can do about it.

Well let's see, if you base your purchasing on only stuff  that's only being made by people and companies that have a track record for making said stuff, how is innovation supposed to occur?  Gee, just think, absolutely none of the changes you champion for morphing games would ever occur because noone has ever done it before....   btw, when was the last time you successfully created and published a game?  Surely you must've to have given you the hutzpa to ridicule someone who has already done so and more than once in his life, "Creator, Producer and Designer of the Ultima Series
Akalabeth, Ultima I - IX, Ultima Online", gee isn't that like 11 games? 

 Let me see ... the whole gaming industry, from day one, is funded by ... yes .. investors .. not gamers. So how did those innovation happened. I will let you guess. Personaly, i am not funding any of that but have tons of games to play.

And yes, i am ridiculing someone who was the ultima series creator .. because he dropped from high heaven, made a disaster (Tabula Rasa) and want you to fund a pittance of $1M when he has $20M to spend to go to space. No difference than ridiculing MJ, or any has-been who was succcessful, and suddenly no-longer so.

The point is still, I trust him and his team to give us another game worth playing but if you don't that's up to you, I would just like to know why the sudden concern for other people giving their money to a cause they believe in.  Hey, my folks tithe regularily to support some guy and his large family preaching to them about the end of the world but it's their money and that's their choice.

That is what he is counting on. Feel free to give him money. I wasn't concerned. As i have stated before, it is a good thing. You risk your money, and i may have a good game to play no matter how low the chance is. It is a good thing for me. But this is the internet. There is also no reason not to tell you how i think about this.

 

 

  Aeolyn

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 138

3/24/13 5:21:42 PM#110
Guess what, since you seem to need to have the last word on pretty much every thread you post on you can have this one since all you did was repeat yourself anyway and I'm tired of rebutting your opinion with the one that matters most to me, mine.  Hopefully if any devs are actually reading any of these arguments, they will consider which ones are willing to pay for their work and which ones just want a free ride, before they lend them any weight in any decisions they are contemplating.
  Souldrainer

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/06
Posts: 1878

3/24/13 8:11:27 PM#111
Originally posted by CalmOceans

irony, tabula rasa was horrible

UO was a pretty bad game too imho, no offense to the fans

 

I think you confuse irony with cause and effect.

Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5293

3/25/13 5:10:54 AM#112

Richard Garret is sort of like your gaming dad, he is not up on new fangled stuff like social media, so its gaffs ahoy. Still could make a fine game though, we shall see.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/25/13 2:29:34 PM#113
Originally posted by Aeolyn
Guess what, since you seem to need to have the last word on pretty much every thread you post on you can have this one since all you did was repeat yourself anyway and I'm tired of rebutting your opinion with the one that matters most to me, mine.  Hopefully if any devs are actually reading any of these arguments, they will consider which ones are willing to pay for their work and which ones just want a free ride, before they lend them any weight in any decisions they are contemplating.

Don't count on it. If that is case, you think F2P will be so popular?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/25/13 2:30:12 PM#114
Originally posted by Scot

Richard Garret is sort of like your gaming dad, he is not up on new fangled stuff like social media, so its gaffs ahoy. Still could make a fine game though, we shall see.

There is always a chance for a fine game. However, it is better for others to risk their $$$ on it, not me.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1437

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

3/25/13 4:44:36 PM#115


Originally posted by CalmOceans
irony, tabula rasa was horrible

UO was a pretty bad game too imho, no offense to the fans


Got to agree with this. I spent many hundreds of hours in Ultima 3 and 4; so I tried hard to get into UO in 1998. But, the game was simply unplayable. Atrocious lag, limited top-down view, and very hard to find mobs or anything at all to do.

However, if RG's latest venture is a first person Ultima that plays well enough and isn't too themeparky, I am so there.


Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
Yeah, it's kinda obvious, I did some study back in the day on the process and control behind game making, particularly MMOs, at first I thought I was just smart for coming up with hundreds of improvements on the classic MMO, than I just realized, nobody can be that stupid, even if their talentless fools, they've experienced quality games and know how to rip them off. I don't even remember the results of my poking around, but I realized that investors, citing production deadlines and emphasis on bad or irrelevant priorities were the real hinderance to the genre.

And how could they not be? It cost a lot of money... It's the number one reason I didn't consider getting an education in and pursuing game design professionally, I honestly don't think there's much to learn about game design from a school which you can't learn naturally by personal studying, Classes in CCNA taught me that. But more than that, an education is just a qualification to work for someone else, someone who is going to maintain the ignorant and uninspired status quo of the genre. It's only because of endless failures and heavy data proving repetition isn't successful which has allowed the next generation of MMOs to appear, but they will still invest based on ignorant statistics and profit blindness.

If I really want to make a game which lives up to my quality, I'll have to make it myself... and by make it myself, I mean be the investor, because programers and artist can be funded, but control and direction isn't a talent you need to find in school, it's a cost you need to fund. In that respect, RG is far more ignorant than he imagines. He should have realized from his previous blunder and the vast sum of money and time he spent trying to make an ideal game without being able to achieve it within budget. You can't just do whatever and spend professional talent like it's some privilage, it's funded. An intelligent game designer will respect the cost and limitations of producing a game, and find a solution that works, not aim for some unobtainable expectation that can't be done within budget. If he has to blow enough money to make 2 MMOs while restarting his project because he couldn't come up with a quality system to begin with, he's clearly not that hot. Anybody can make the best game given unlimited money and time to experiement, start over, and keep trying til your successful, but that's not a realistic situation now is it?

All that said, I still feel game developers are rather unimpressive. There are simple mechanical alterations that are extremely subtle which could vastly enhance gameplay by just rearranging and implementing small factors. It's often something as remote as exchanging some functions on certain roles, or adding a small layer of involvement to make the gameplay more satisfying, and many of them don't even have a real impact on the outcome, they just make it feel more gratifying. But that's a whole nother subject about how programmers and graphic artists pursue gameplay designer roles by becoming qualified as builders...

I have my own business... and I'll just have to muster up about 33 million at some point before I'm senial and do it myself...



Brilliant post, thanks!

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/25/13 5:00:00 PM#116
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by CalmOceans
irony, tabula rasa was horrible

 

UO was a pretty bad game too imho, no offense to the fans


 

Got to agree with this. I spent many hundreds of hours in Ultima 3 and 4; so I tried hard to get into UO in 1998. But, the game was simply unplayable. Atrocious lag, limited top-down view, and very hard to find mobs or anything at all to do.

Agreed. U3-U7 are great games. U8 is meh. U9 is a disaster. UO is not a good game. I haev exactly the same experience. Bad lag ... griefing rampant. Bad combat mechanics (tank mage everywhere).

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