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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » [POLL] Tab Targeting vs Action Combat

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306 posts found
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

3/25/13 5:05:00 PM#201
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Aerowyn

that video just proves anything with a large group of people looks like a mass zerg of people spamming abilities... Action MMOs are new and need to evolve but over time they will develop harder are more strategic encounters. But imagine if they did that right off the bat, hardly anyone would play as they would complain the game is to hard and move to something else.. developers will see in time they can make action games with more complex encounters but for now baby steps.

Also on your edit gw2 already fixed this where if you die you can't just spawn and run back in the fight you either need to hope someone finishes the fight ot rez you or the party wipes and you start over(for dungeons at least.. still an issue in WvW).

 

Come on, Aerowyn.  I usually respect your posts but I cant believe you are resorting to the 'action combat is so hard people cant handle it" line of thinking.  Its not like people are quitting TERA or GW2 because they find them difficult.  

I get that people may trash TERA for the lock in place, and people are saying things like GW2 is just button mashing.  but then people say that tab targetting is hitting 1-2-3-4.  It doesnt matter how new or old the system is, people that dont like it will over simplify it to try and prove their point.

People generally dont dislike action combat because its too hard, they just find it annoying or not the right fit for the genre. 

i can name 5 of my own friends who did just that.. they all wen't back to wow and rift because they found gw2 to hard for them.. their words not mine..  not all MMO players play action games or are used to dodge mechanics and such. To some it is a steep learning curve, especially for those used to slower paced MMOs and not action savy people. This was very evident when gw2 first released and running through AC with many pugs for the first time... Running Rifts first dungeon was a breeze even for a group of newbies.. for gw2 it was a pain in the ass till people learned the combat then it became much easier of course.

I can also attest to this (and not just with GW2, but with TERA as well). Though, unlike Aerowyn's friends, mine usually won't admit it was 'too difficult' they find other ways of essencially saying the same thing. In GW2 it was 'mobs hit way too hard, this game is broken' or 'combat in this game is way too chaotic, I miss the old threat system where things were more organized'. In TERA it was 'you take way too much damage in this game, tired of chugging health potions' or 'you have to dodge way too much in this game, i don't like this'.

This isn't to say that most players can't handle the difficulty (which is untrue). It's more that a lot of players don't want to. Heck, a while ago I was showing some of my friends how to play Warrior in GW2. They couldn't believe I was surviving dungeons as a glass cannon greatsword warrior. I showed them what I did, explained why it worked, and gave tips on dodging (like the 2 second rule). Their response was a combination of 'can you just give me a spec where i can take a lot of hits and don't have to dodge?' and 'eF this, I'm going back to WoW, sick of this dodging BS'.

A large part of it, though I hate to say, is people are now used to dumping all the responsibility on the game. A lot of people have gotten used to games telling them that they're badass for no real accomplishment. They don't like it when games make them feel weak or crappy, because they don't want to have to spend a lot of time improving their skill lvl.

Maybe it's the fact that traditionally and preferentially, RPGs were about the skills of the character and not the player.  It was the whole point of having stats and gear and character skills / spells.

  tupodawg999

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

3/25/13 5:06:12 PM#202

Personally it's not so much preferring tab targeting in itself as preferring strategy. If you have an RPG where your *character* has certain skills then the combat should (imo) be about the strategy and tactics you use with those available skills against the skills of a mob (or the combined tactics using the different skills of a group of players against a group of mobs).

 

My ideal would almost like a turn based card game combat system where the mob plays a skill card and you counter with a skill card etc.

 

However if there's no real strategy to the combat just a row of different-coloured dps cooldowns then action combat is more interesting for a little while longer.

 

Overall though, to me action combat means your 1st level wizard (or even level 30 wizard) dodges just as well as your level 30 thief and i don't want that (well i would if i specifically built my level 30 wizard that way but not otherwise).

 

I'm guessing the division among players will be between those who like strategy games more than FPS games and vice versa.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

3/25/13 5:11:29 PM#203
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by gordiflu
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Quirhid

Don't be a fool. Action combat can and has just as much tactics, CC and everything else than any other method of combat. It only looks like a button mash to someone who doesn't understand what is happening.

You're letting your ignorance show.

What are you even talking about. Show me one game where you need to split a single mob out of a pack of 10 that doesn't use tab targeting.

Show me one.

Explain to me how you would even select a target in a game without targeting....how would that even work??

I've played non-target games like Vindictus, strategy is non-existent in those games, they're button combo mashfests zerg galore solofests and it's a direct result of their console combat style.

You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect. I don't know about vindictus never played it but games like tera are not button mashers ( well I guess they are if you don't knwo what you're doing but then so are tab target mmos). They have targets like any mmo you just can't lock on and fire smart rounds over your shoulder at them. You have to actually aim.

Keep in mind action combat is very new to mmos. So it's still evolving. tab targeting hasn't really changed that much other than say guild wars2 which....is just evolving into action combat.

Evolving is the wrong term to use.  Switching to action combat is the correct way to put it.  Evolving denotes tab target combat as older and inferior when it is merely just a different choice in mechanics.

 

I'll take tab target over action / twitch any day of the week.

Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

It is not inferior, it is a preference.  It may be older chronologically, but not older in the sense of obsolescence.

Watching yal back and forth about a system that can work synonimously is getting boresome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seu4_FdfVSI

That isn't the argument.  He says tab target is obsolete and inferior to action combat and I say it is not.  Using the term evolving denotes that one IS inferior to the other when this is absolutely not the case and I merely stated he should word it differently.  I'm not debating on merging systems or anything of the sort.  Some players like me, prefer tab target, slower paced combat and find it insulting when people like him denegrate our "preferred" but still legitimate play style.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1876

3/25/13 5:24:30 PM#204

For rpgs I prefer slower turn based combat. They've always been about the character and the development of the character.

No MMO has come close to "action" combat. When I play action games I prefer full on action games that do it properly, not mushy wannabe systems. DMC, NG, GoW, Bayonetta, Otogi. . . etc those are action games - not Tera.

A game like Tera is just slightly more twitchy turn based combat. Which to me is very limited as it borrows the worst from both. It gives you a little bit of twitch, but not true free form action combat. And it has the cooldown turn based downside of waiting on certain skills (counting down the turns until it's usable again), but doesn't provide the time for strategy that a slower system would allow.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20543

3/25/13 5:39:30 PM#205
Originally posted by Rusque

For rpgs I prefer slower turn based combat. They've always been about the character and the development of the character.

No MMO has come close to "action" combat. When I play action games I prefer full on action games that do it properly, not mushy wannabe systems. DMC, NG, GoW, Bayonetta, Otogi. . . etc those are action games - not Tera.

A game like Tera is just slightly more twitchy turn based combat. Which to me is very limited as it borrows the worst from both. It gives you a little bit of twitch, but not true free form action combat. And it has the cooldown turn based downside of waiting on certain skills (counting down the turns until it's usable again), but doesn't provide the time for strategy that a slower system would allow.

 

I prefer action RPG ... there are plenty of online RPG with action combat. Diablo and all the sequences and clones. Borderlands. But it is not a 0 or 1 thing. Tera is really not true action comabt .. but more actiony than most MMOs. It is a continuum, not black and white.

  tupodawg999

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

3/25/13 5:51:48 PM#206

"It is a continuum, not black and white."

 

I think it's partly black and white in that logically either player skill comes first or character skill comes first. If character skill comes first then - because it would be boring for the player if it wasn't some kind of player skill - then the combat effectively needs to turn into a strategy game using the character's available skills.

A lot of what we have now is a continuum because that first point hasn't been recognized. We have actiony tab-targeting - button mashing - to compensate for the lack of strategy.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20543

3/25/13 5:58:16 PM#207
Originally posted by tupodawg999

"It is a continuum, not black and white."

 

I think it's partly black and white in that logically either player skill comes first or character skill comes first. If character skill comes first then - because it would be boring for the player if it wasn't some kind of player skill - then the combat effectively needs to turn into a strategy game using the character's available skills.

A lot of what we have now is a continuum because that first point hasn't been recognized. We have actiony tab-targeting - button mashing - to compensate for the lack of strategy.

Again, i doubt it is that black and white.

Take D3 as an example. The combat is pretty actiony. If you are good, you can probably do higher MP difficulty with less gear. However, with enough gear, you can do any difficulty.

So is it player skill comes first, or is it character skill comes first .. it is a bit of both ... your combat effectiveness is the sums of the two.

And boring or not .. depends on player preferences. May be some like to face-roll mobs, and spend time to play the meta-game optimizing build and gear. Is that player skill or is that character skill?

  tupodawg999

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

3/25/13 6:01:26 PM#208

"Again, i doubt it is that black and white."

 

Yeah it's not 100% but i think the player skill first vs character skill first distinction is where the dividing line is.

  Bossalinie

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 632

3/25/13 6:06:45 PM#209
Originally posted by xalvi
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xalvi
Originally posted by Bossalinie
Originally posted by xalvi

Oh comon gtfo with action combat, this is MMO industry. If i wanted that i'd go back to console games aka C.O.D.

 

What action mmo plays like COD again?

 

What...did you ever play tera? 

hmm ... Tera is third person .. it is not even first person.

 

Wow lmao....so what. I aim and shoot, just as action combat mmos liike tera.

I chose which teammates I pass the ball to by tabbing in NBA 2K13. It plays just like WoW. 

Am I doing it right?

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3466

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/25/13 6:34:33 PM#210


Originally posted by nariusseldon
Again, i doubt it is that black and white.

Take D3 as an example. The combat is pretty actiony. If you are good, you can probably do higher MP difficulty with less gear. However, with enough gear, you can do any difficulty.

So is it player skill comes first, or is it character skill comes first .. it is a bit of both ... your combat effectiveness is the sums of the two.

And boring or not .. depends on player preferences. May be some like to face-roll mobs, and spend time to play the meta-game optimizing build and gear. Is that player skill or is that character skill?



In D3 (I have not played it), does *my* ability to click and aim factor in at all, no matter what gear I have for my character? If my character has the best gear in the game, does my "fat fingering", hitting the wrong key/button, making any jerking movements with my mouse factor in at all?

It IS black and white. Until "action combat" has *my* inept abilities NOT factor in, I don't prefer it.

It is a separation between the player's abilities and the character's abilities that creates the dividing line. Can 1 system marry the two sides? I don't see how.

I have played some "actiony combat" games. Sometimes, depending on the game, they are fun. For awhile. Then, I get tired. I start to dread the next fight. Think of Orr in GW2. That zone was dreadful to me NOT because I couldn't get anywhere, but because I had to fight for every step I took there. The combat made me tired quickly, and having fight after senseless fight made me quit. I was just physically tired.

It is black and white because:
Tab Target = Character skill.
Action Combat = Player skill.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/25/13 8:22:49 PM#211
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
Again, i doubt it is that black and white.

 

Take D3 as an example. The combat is pretty actiony. If you are good, you can probably do higher MP difficulty with less gear. However, with enough gear, you can do any difficulty.

So is it player skill comes first, or is it character skill comes first .. it is a bit of both ... your combat effectiveness is the sums of the two.

And boring or not .. depends on player preferences. May be some like to face-roll mobs, and spend time to play the meta-game optimizing build and gear. Is that player skill or is that character skill?



In D3 (I have not played it), does *my* ability to click and aim factor in at all, no matter what gear I have for my character? If my character has the best gear in the game, does my "fat fingering", hitting the wrong key/button, making any jerking movements with my mouse factor in at all?

 

It IS black and white. Until "action combat" has *my* inept abilities NOT factor in, I don't prefer it.

It is a separation between the player's abilities and the character's abilities that creates the dividing line. Can 1 system marry the two sides? I don't see how.

I have played some "actiony combat" games. Sometimes, depending on the game, they are fun. For awhile. Then, I get tired. I start to dread the next fight. Think of Orr in GW2. That zone was dreadful to me NOT because I couldn't get anywhere, but because I had to fight for every step I took there. The combat made me tired quickly, and having fight after senseless fight made me quit. I was just physically tired.

It is black and white because:
Tab Target = Character skill.
Action Combat = Player skill.

Nah, I agree with narious. Its not black and white. Plauer skill encompasses both the knowledge and the execution part. Take Starcraft for instance: In order to be a good player in Starcraft, you have to know the maps, the metagame, builds, timings, bonuses, counters etc. and make decisions accordingly. Execution means you have to apply your knowledge and exectute your actions with speed and accuracy.

Take Guild Wars 1 as another example, I had hammered the description of every skill in the game in my mind as well as most of their casting times, mana cost and cooldowns. Then I have to position myself right in the engagement and use my skills correctly, hit my interruptions, disable enemy characters by targeting their key-skills, dodge projectiles, help teammates, being as cost effective as possible and causing the enemy team burn as much mana as they can. Eventually, if no team makes mistakes, its the team who runs out of mana faster loses (or has to disengage).

Even if tab target-games rely heavily on dicerolls they may still require player skill. Just that they don't have the "twitch element" action combat-games have. Its very hard to draw a line between the two, though, since there are plenty of games in the gray area.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  strangiato2112

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Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/25/13 8:43:59 PM#212

 


Originally posted by Quirhid Nah, I agree with narious. Its not black and white. Plauer skill encompasses both the knowledge and the execution part. Take Starcraft for instance: In order to be a good player in Starcraft, you have to know the maps, the metagame, builds, timings, bonuses, counters etc. and make decisions accordingly. Execution means you have to apply your knowledge and exectute your actions with speed and accuracy.

 

Theres physical dexterity and there is mental dexterity. Not just the knowledge, but the ability to use that knowledge under pressure. Most PvE encounters in any game, action combat games included, are designed in such a way that mental dexterity is minimized. its in PvP and rare Oh Shit! PvE cases (such as a couple key deaths near the end of a raid fight and trying to pull victory out of your ass) that you need to think fast.

I want to see more mental dexterity in my MMO PvE.

  AlBQuirky

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Joined: 1/24/05
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Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/25/13 8:54:27 PM#213


Originally posted by Quirhid
Nah, I agree with narious. Its not black and white. Plauer skill encompasses both the knowledge and the execution part. Take Starcraft for instance: In order to be a good player in Starcraft, you have to know the maps, the metagame, builds, timings, bonuses, counters etc. and make decisions accordingly. Execution means you have to apply your knowledge and exectute your actions with speed and accuracy.

Take Guild Wars 1 as another example, I had hammered the description of every skill in the game in my mind as well as most of their casting times, mana cost and cooldowns. Then I have to position myself right in the engagement and use my skills correctly, hit my interruptions, disable enemy characters by targeting their key-skills, dodge projectiles, help teammates, being as cost effective as possible and causing the enemy team burn as much mana as they can. Eventually, if no team makes mistakes, its the team who runs out of mana faster loses (or has to disengage).

Even if tab target-games rely heavily on dicerolls they may still require player skill. Just that they don't have the "twitch element" action combat-games have. Its very hard to draw a line between the two, though, since there are plenty of games in the gray area.



And this all comes back to "player skill" or knowledge vs. "character skill" or knowledge. Did you gain your knowledge from in game experience, or did you "google it" and learn outside of the game play? Did your characters know these facts, or you?

Again, it is separation between "player" and "character."

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Quirhid

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Joined: 1/28/05
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3/25/13 8:58:59 PM#214
Originally posted by strangiato2112

 


Originally posted by Quirhid Nah, I agree with narious. Its not black and white. Plauer skill encompasses both the knowledge and the execution part. Take Starcraft for instance: In order to be a good player in Starcraft, you have to know the maps, the metagame, builds, timings, bonuses, counters etc. and make decisions accordingly. Execution means you have to apply your knowledge and exectute your actions with speed and accuracy.

 

Theres physical dexterity and there is mental dexterity. Not just the knowledge, but the ability to use that knowledge under pressure. Most PvE encounters in any game, action combat games included, are designed in such a way that mental dexterity is minimized. its in PvP and rare Oh Shit! PvE cases (such as a couple key deaths near the end of a raid fight and trying to pull victory out of your ass) that you need to think fast.

I want to see more mental dexterity in my MMO PvE.

Yes, "mental dexterity"... I like it. This may go a bit too deep, but this is precisely the sort of stuff Miyamoto Musashi speaks in his Book of Five Rings. The faster you can make a decision the more time it gives you to think about the whole picture and plan your next move. This demands that you develop certain routines and think about different situations and scenarios beforehand - to give you a pool of "ready-made decisions".

The less you have to devote your brainpower to your execution the more you can use to out-think and beat your opponent.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

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3/25/13 9:00:22 PM#215
Originally posted by AlBQuirky


And this all comes back to "player skill" or knowledge vs. "character skill" or knowledge. Did you gain your knowledge from in game experience, or did you "google it" and learn outside of the game play? Did your characters know these facts, or you?

 

Again, it is separation between "player" and "character."

How do you make that distiction in a game like League of Legends?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  AlBQuirky

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Joined: 1/24/05
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3/25/13 9:08:40 PM#216


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
And this all comes back to "player skill" or knowledge vs. "character skill" or knowledge. Did you gain your knowledge from in game experience, or did you "google it" and learn outside of the game play? Did your characters know these facts, or you?

Again, it is separation between "player" and "character."



How do you make that distiction in a game like League of Legends?

That is silly. Are we talking about League of Legends? Does this NOT apply to that one, specific game? Is LoL even an RPG?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  akkedis86

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 102

3/26/13 12:23:24 AM#217

Great news, Wildstar will have tab targeting, and Free form targeting , which you can switch between :D

 

Maybe this'll bring people together.

  LordOfPit

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/10
Posts: 79

3/26/13 2:09:24 AM#218
Originally posted by akkedis86

Great news, Wildstar will have tab targeting, and Free form targeting , which you can switch between :D

 

Maybe this'll bring people together.

It's been done in other games too, like Star Trek Online for example. Personally I voted "I don't mind" because if implemented properly and the game has interesting and fun gameplay, I truly don't mind.

  Quirhid

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Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/26/13 3:15:29 AM#219
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
And this all comes back to "player skill" or knowledge vs. "character skill" or knowledge. Did you gain your knowledge from in game experience, or did you "google it" and learn outside of the game play? Did your characters know these facts, or you?

 

Again, it is separation between "player" and "character."



How do you make that distiction in a game like League of Legends?

That is silly. Are we talking about League of Legends? Does this NOT apply to that one, specific game? Is LoL even an RPG?

 

I brought it up because it has emphasis on both player skill and character skill - not only that, but character choice and items too. Whether LoL is an RPG is somewhat debatable, but it does have character development.

If character abilities include many "immeasurable effects" (setting up a temporary impassable wall, short range blink etc.) - the effectiveness of that particular build is largely determined by how well that character is played. You cannot put a theoretical number on how powerful that character is. Still it is a character, and it gains levels and abilities throughout the match, but player skill has a strong effect on how that character performs.

Oh, and it doesn't matter how you acquire your game knowledge: if you googled it, its fine - knowledge is knowledge.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2382

3/26/13 3:24:37 AM#220

I voted tab targetting because I think it keeps the playing field more even for all types of gamers.  Not everyone is great at twitch combat.  But even the most uncoordinated of gamers can become almost average with a generic tab targetting, hotkey system.  It relies more on stats and percentages than it does hand-eye coordination and twitch skill.  

 

I also don't think it's black and white like the poll suggests.  Take Age of Conan or Warhammer Online for example.  Both use tab targetting and both have instances of aim based action combat.  AoC has combo skills and WAR has wide cone skills and spells.  They don't require a locked target, but you can still be targetting someone.  TERA does this as well.  Ultimately I want more people playing the game that I'm playing.  I feel that the 'tab targetting' system would be more beneficial in that regard.

 

I really wish a sandbox game would employ this system..

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