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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » [POLL] Tab Targeting vs Action Combat

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  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

3/24/13 11:03:38 PM#161
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by strangiato2112
 

Old Zelda games were far more difficult than EQ could have ever hoped to be lol, EQ however was more time consuming. 

 

This thread is so full of stupid on both sides it should be locked for the good of all MMORPG players.  Just look at general chats, the average MMO player is dumb enough already without reading this kind of crap.

Sorry, having played the original EQ I never found it challenging. It was time consuming like FFXI was and I did enjoy both games. While it did give a sense of accomplishment due to the ammount of time required to accomplish different things it never presented anything I found challenging or even remotely close to challenging. 

Solving puzzles and defeating bosses in old Zelda games was more challenging to me than anything I ever encountered in EQ. 

I'm not sure how that qualifies as "Stupid" but, you're entitled to your opinion. 

Which Zelda boss was tougher than the Rathe Council?  The dino?  The big round thing that split into 4 when you whistled?  Or maybe it was the 4 headed dragon

HA! I remember Rathe Council somewhat. Only reason I remember it was because I was watching Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy while we did it lol. As to which boss was tougher, well any that required me to actively pay attention to complete the content. One of the reasons I liked FFXI and EQ was that I was usually watching TV, a movie, or w/e while playing and chatting with friends lol. You go over the strategy before hand and it was never anything to really worry about. 

Though I could do 3 man promies in FFXI back before the nerfs to promies. I solo'd a god awful amount of BCNM's as well. Hell, I was one of the first on my server in FFXI to get fully upgraded relic knucks which took years to get. It was never difficult to me, just time consuming. Hulu and netflix came along and made these types of games a great deal more fun for me. 

Tab targeting games have always relied on fairly predictible and static AI. It takes a lot of the challenge out of it. You may differ and find this type of play challenging, I just don't. 

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/24/13 11:08:34 PM#162
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Aerowyn

that video just proves anything with a large group of people looks like a mass zerg of people spamming abilities... Action MMOs are new and need to evolve but over time they will develop harder are more strategic encounters. But imagine if they did that right off the bat, hardly anyone would play as they would complain the game is to hard and move to something else.. developers will see in time they can make action games with more complex encounters but for now baby steps.

Also on your edit gw2 already fixed this where if you die you can't just spawn and run back in the fight you either need to hope someone finishes the fight ot rez you or the party wipes and you start over(for dungeons at least.. still an issue in WvW).

 

Come on, Aerowyn.  I usually respect your posts but I cant believe you are resorting to the 'action combat is so hard people cant handle it" line of thinking.  Its not like people are quitting TERA or GW2 because they find them difficult.  

I get that people may trash TERA for the lock in place, and people are saying things like GW2 is just button mashing.  but then people say that tab targetting is hitting 1-2-3-4.  It doesnt matter how new or old the system is, people that dont like it will over simplify it to try and prove their point.

People generally dont dislike action combat because its too hard, they just find it annoying or not the right fit for the genre. 

i can name 5 of my own friends who did just that.. they all wen't back to wow and rift because they found gw2 to hard for them.. their words not mine..  not all MMO players play action games or are used to dodge mechanics and such. To some it is a steep learning curve, especially for those used to slower paced MMOs and not action savy people. This was very evident when gw2 first released and running through AC with many pugs for the first time... Running Rifts first dungeon was a breeze even for a group of newbies.. for gw2 it was a pain in the ass till people learned the combat then it became much easier of course.

I guess I shouldnt say that people dont quit MMOs because they are hard (People quit WoW during Cata because of this, and I didnt think those dungeons were that bad).  Ive never personally run into anyone who quit GW2 because it was hard though.

Yes, AC was a clusterfuck.  No trinity was a more jarring thing than the action combat IMO.  Bastion of Lok (TERA) was pretty easy.  The developers choose the difficulty, not the combat system.

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4785

3/24/13 11:13:48 PM#163
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Aerowyn

that video just proves anything with a large group of people looks like a mass zerg of people spamming abilities... Action MMOs are new and need to evolve but over time they will develop harder are more strategic encounters. But imagine if they did that right off the bat, hardly anyone would play as they would complain the game is to hard and move to something else.. developers will see in time they can make action games with more complex encounters but for now baby steps.

Also on your edit gw2 already fixed this where if you die you can't just spawn and run back in the fight you either need to hope someone finishes the fight ot rez you or the party wipes and you start over(for dungeons at least.. still an issue in WvW).

 

Come on, Aerowyn.  I usually respect your posts but I cant believe you are resorting to the 'action combat is so hard people cant handle it" line of thinking.  Its not like people are quitting TERA or GW2 because they find them difficult.  

I get that people may trash TERA for the lock in place, and people are saying things like GW2 is just button mashing.  but then people say that tab targetting is hitting 1-2-3-4.  It doesnt matter how new or old the system is, people that dont like it will over simplify it to try and prove their point.

People generally dont dislike action combat because its too hard, they just find it annoying or not the right fit for the genre. 

i can name 5 of my own friends who did just that.. they all wen't back to wow and rift because they found gw2 to hard for them.. their words not mine..  not all MMO players play action games or are used to dodge mechanics and such. To some it is a steep learning curve, especially for those used to slower paced MMOs and not action savy people. This was very evident when gw2 first released and running through AC with many pugs for the first time... Running Rifts first dungeon was a breeze even for a group of newbies.. for gw2 it was a pain in the ass till people learned the combat then it became much easier of course.

I can also attest to this (and not just with GW2, but with TERA as well). Though, unlike Aerowyn's friends, mine usually won't admit it was 'too difficult' they find other ways of essencially saying the same thing. In GW2 it was 'mobs hit way too hard, this game is broken' or 'combat in this game is way too chaotic, I miss the old threat system where things were more organized'. In TERA it was 'you take way too much damage in this game, tired of chugging health potions' or 'you have to dodge way too much in this game, i don't like this'.

This isn't to say that most players can't handle the difficulty (which is untrue). It's more that a lot of players don't want to. Heck, a while ago I was showing some of my friends how to play Warrior in GW2. They couldn't believe I was surviving dungeons as a glass cannon greatsword warrior. I showed them what I did, explained why it worked, and gave tips on dodging (like the 2 second rule). Their response was a combination of 'can you just give me a spec where i can take a lot of hits and don't have to dodge?' and 'eF this, I'm going back to WoW, sick of this dodging BS'.

A large part of it, though I hate to say, is people are now used to dumping all the responsibility on the game. A lot of people have gotten used to games telling them that they're badass for no real accomplishment. They don't like it when games make them feel weak or crappy, because they don't want to have to spend a lot of time improving their skill lvl.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/24/13 11:21:53 PM#164
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by strangiato2112
 

Old Zelda games were far more difficult than EQ could have ever hoped to be lol, EQ however was more time consuming. 

 

This thread is so full of stupid on both sides it should be locked for the good of all MMORPG players.  Just look at general chats, the average MMO player is dumb enough already without reading this kind of crap.

Sorry, having played the original EQ I never found it challenging. It was time consuming like FFXI was and I did enjoy both games. While it did give a sense of accomplishment due to the ammount of time required to accomplish different things it never presented anything I found challenging or even remotely close to challenging. 

Solving puzzles and defeating bosses in old Zelda games was more challenging to me than anything I ever encountered in EQ. 

I'm not sure how that qualifies as "Stupid" but, you're entitled to your opinion. 

Which Zelda boss was tougher than the Rathe Council?  The dino?  The big round thing that split into 4 when you whistled?  Or maybe it was the 4 headed dragon

HA! I remember Rathe Council somewhat. Only reason I remember it was because I was watching Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy while we did it lol. As to which boss was tougher, well any that required me to actively pay attention to complete the content. One of the reasons I liked FFXI and EQ was that I was usually watching TV, a movie, or w/e while playing and chatting with friends lol. You go over the strategy before hand and it was never anything to really worry about. 

Though I could do 3 man promies in FFXI back before the nerfs to promies. I solo'd a god awful amount of BCNM's as well. Hell, I was one of the first on my server in FFXI to get fully upgraded relic knucks which took years to get. It was never difficult to me, just time consuming. Hulu and netflix came along and made these types of games a great deal more fun for me. 

Tab targeting games have always relied on fairly predictible and static AI. It takes a lot of the challenge out of it. You may differ and find this type of play challenging, I just don't. 

The static AI thing is just as much a problem in action combat games.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuagtonNcKk

 

And EQ1 did have its share of randomness.  Spell resists definitely made things not always go as planned.  And some of the hectic times in EQ1 were when my ranger, usually doing his simple dps role, had to adjust to a bad pull and root an incoming mob, use tangling weeds and flame lick to get aggro of another that wa sheading towards the healer, drag it away from the healer (while using weapon shield to avoid damge from a mob that kill me in one round) to root it in place,  then make sure both rooted mobs hated me, and be prepared to deal with the root breaks while dpsing another mob, knowing that if root broke a very pissed off and dangerous mob would be coming after me.  

While a strong group tended to make EQ easy in spots, when shit hit the fan there was a rather large gap between an average player and a very good one.

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

3/24/13 11:22:31 PM#165
[mod edit]

I'm as entitled to an opinion as you are. No , I never gained a bad rep lol and no I didn't stick around for 13 years. Wasn't enough time to play DAOC, UO, EQOA, EQ, and FFXI. So I dropped EQ. 

  User Deleted
3/24/13 11:25:06 PM#166
Action combat, TERA changed everything. New MMOs are going for action combat cause is more enjoyable.
  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/24/13 11:30:22 PM#167
Originally posted by Ardu
Action combat, TERA changed everything. New MMOs are going for action combat cause is more enjoyable.

A game that went f2p within months is going to change everything...

 

  Heafstagg

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/02/06
Posts: 167

3/24/13 11:37:22 PM#168
I enjoy action orientated combat in action orientated games. I've yet to play an MMO that even comes remotely close to some of the games that are directly focused on said combat. TERA being the only one I can think of that comes close. So until they achieve the same level of precision and entertainment, I'd prefer to stick with tab targeting when it comes to my MMO's. That's not to say I'm opposed to the idea though, if it was properly implemented.

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

3/24/13 11:37:31 PM#169
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 One of the reasons I liked FFXI and EQ was that I was usually watching TV, a movie, or w/e while playing and chatting with friends lol.

what guild were you in, the drunken donuts?

one of those players who quit after GoD probably, and now feel they're entitled to an opinion on EQ because they played for 2 years, gathering a bad reputation for themselves and quit, while the game is 13 years old

shut up please

I'm as entitled to an opinion as you are. Know, I never gained a bad rep lol but no I didn't stick around for 13 years. Wasn't enough time to play DAOC, UO, EQOA, EQ, and FFXI. So I dropped EQ. 

No you're not. If you're a leech and only played PoP and not beyond you actually aren't entitled to an opinon, especially not if you were a leech.

and just to show you I'm not a leech, my alt logged in right now with 300 days played

 

Ahh, it seems you've gone off kilter so it looks like its time to move on lol. We obviously aren't going to see eye to eye. I found the game easy without leeching, you find it difficult. We will simply have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Good luck to you man lol. 

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

3/25/13 12:05:07 AM#170
Originally posted by Ardu
Action combat, TERA changed everything.

What did it change?  And don't say everything :p

Honestly, it's more of an MMO than Dragon Nest, but the combat was done first in DN.  And it was faster too.

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

3/25/13 12:19:08 AM#171
[mod edit]

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2917

3/25/13 12:21:00 AM#172
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found I greatly prefer tab target and set group-roles in my MMOs.

 

This. Twitch gaming on PC is fun for casuals, it's fun in short bursts when I attach my gamepad.

And not do offend anyone on this forum, but those people who were saying Tera is hard. Uhm what?!

Hard is losing your corpse in a dungeon over the week-end while you lose all your XP and items. You noobs don't know what hard is.

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

3/25/13 12:27:15 AM#173
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found I greatly prefer tab target and set group-roles in my MMOs.

 

This. Twitch gaming on PC is fun for casuals, it's fun in short bursts when I attach my gamepad.

And not do offend anyone on this forum, but those people who were saying Tera is hard. Uhm what?!

Hard is losing your corpse in a dungeon over the week-end while you lose all your XP and items. You noobs don't know what hard is.

There are plenty of mmo vets that prefer twitch style gameplay over tab targeting at this point. Has nothing to do with what or how long they played the genre.

Keep the Team Edward and Team Jacob bullshit out of this.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  patlefort

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/08
Posts: 61

3/25/13 12:34:42 AM#174
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found I greatly prefer tab target and set group-roles in my MMOs.

 

This. Twitch gaming on PC is fun for casuals, it's fun in short bursts when I attach my gamepad.

And not do offend anyone on this forum, but those people who were saying Tera is hard. Uhm what?!

Hard is losing your corpse in a dungeon over the week-end while you lose all your XP and items. You noobs don't know what hard is.

And here goes the debate on the definition of hard. People with no skill goes hard = time, time tiiiiiiiiiime. Gotta lose exp, gear, be teleported 10 year back of played time. Raids gotta take 15 hours of cleaning trash. Been there, done that, it's not hard, it's time consuming. Skilled players goes hard = need reflexes, gotta pay attention, gotta know the fight, gotta know your class, gotta coordinate with your partners.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2917

3/25/13 12:39:27 AM#175
Nasty, calm down. WoW and new players to the genre can enjoy what they like, play action games if that's your thing, who cares.
  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

3/25/13 12:43:34 AM#176
Originally posted by Waterlily
Nasty, calm down. WoW and new players to the genre can enjoy what they like, play action games if that's your thing, who cares.

It isn't just "WoW and new players" that enjoy it and whether you like it or not there are more and more mmos adopting that style of gameplay.

I enjoy both styles myself. I'm just fucking cool like that.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 587

3/25/13 12:46:20 AM#177

After playing Tera, it is hard for me to go back to tab/target.  Tera is a actual action combat.  Games like GW2 and even ESO are a mix of tab/target and action combat.  I prefer the "true action combat" as it is less spammy and has more consequences for mistakes.

I do think there is a time and place for tab/target games.  But I prefer active combat.  However, I prefer WoW's system compared to GW2.  The GW2 system seemed all over the place, it had no specific goal and tried to do couple of things at once.  

It might have been a camera or clunky control issue but I hated it.  If their controls was as responsive as WoW and it didn't feel as laggy I would like their combat style after Tera combat.  Hopefull ESO fixes it.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

3/25/13 2:04:35 AM#178
Originally posted by CalmOceans
it's not a zerg but it looks like a zerg to many people

you're spamming abilities in those games, you're not in contact with other players are you

in tab raids, especially older ones people were chatting and controlling the mob, we had none of that jumping and "blue eggs turn red, RUN" crap in our games, some raids had scripts but it wasn't like WoW, WoW made every raid into a script raid, in vindictus every mob is running a script and people are button mashing

this is an older EQ raid from Demi, do you see many people moving around doing jumping jacks and spamming their abilities, they're control raids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpEyMeslXfU

to people used to EQ, and I assum FFXI too the current MMO simply look like console games, they're fast paced, very little control or CC, very little preparation, very lenient on mistakes and extremely button skill based

action games also give players unlimited tries, no recovery time, no reason to fear penalties for mistakes, very little time loss, that's why they are called zerg sometimes, because that's what's going on, you make a mistake and rush back in without the punishemnt

 

I love that you're JUST.....NOT...GETTING...IT.

 

You're heralding exactly the point of the criticism and exactly what makes old EQ and other examples you're using horrible.  Stop using Vindictus as an example for anything, it sucks..it's just as bad as EQ is now.  Don't get me wrong, I LOVED EQ back in the time because I didn't have other great options, but given the option of a COPLETELY STATIC encounter or an encounter that can be a little different each time...guess which one I'll pick.

 

Your previous example only further proved my point, you thought any raid in EQ was hard, that's cute, and I'm sorry that your guild was that bad.  The fact remains that EQ and MMOs at that time were all about static encounters, mez/stun the area and dps down one target.  There was very little management of anything but your own resources.  Yes...occasionally you had to dps and, OH NOES, count to 12 before re-applying the CC of your choice.  You *might* have to watch one mob because they might break cc early.  I still fail to see the challenge of taking 50 people into a raid and BARELY controlling 3-5 mobs.

 

Adapt and get better, or just re-install UO and revel in how much you loved it all before Trammel.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

3/25/13 2:08:54 AM#179
Originally posted by Waterlily
Nasty, calm down. WoW and new players to the genre can enjoy what they like, play action games if that's your thing, who cares.

 

Yeah...guess you're so old school it took you forever to find a simple site like MMORPG.com....really?

 

If you want to try and validate yourself based on time spent playing games how about we do it based on when we joined this site?  Yeah...I thought not.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/25/13 3:53:47 AM#180
Originally posted by xalvi

Oh comon gtfo with action combat, this is MMO industry. If i wanted that i'd go back to console games aka C.O.D.

More and more it's comments like these which make me realize there's a very large segment of MMORPG gamers who are entirely clueless about gaming outside of MMORPGs.

It's like they are completely unaware of how many action-heavy PC games have existed over the years, so anything which isn't Vanilla MMORPG is "console" to them.

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