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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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154 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/24/13 1:28:00 PM#41

F2P?  Absolutely.  Plenty of examples like TF2 and LoL.

F2P MMORPG?  A little shakier, as there aren't really games being built along the "pay for playstyles" model, and XP potions alone, while probably the #1 source of income for those games and not really an advantage, doesn't seem like it will quite be enough.

Here's hoping players strongly support the fun games which only sell playstyle/vanity, and avoid supporting pay2win games.  The more that happens, the more LoL-style games will exist which focus on creating an incredibly fun core experience supported by playstyle unlock purchases.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5229

3/25/13 5:18:00 AM#42

Once you have a cash shop its not if it will have P2W elements, it is just when. Some may have staved of P2W elements for years but they all go P2W in the end.

The classic these days is starting out with transport buffs, teleport scrolls and the like. These help you get to top level quicker. Trying to make out not getting to top level more quickly is not P2W is a joke.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/25/13 10:11:37 AM#43

Well I guess that all depends on what you consider an advanatage and/or a p2w item now doesn't it.

Personally I don't think xp potions are an advantage or p2w in a leveling game with an end-game.without ffa pvp.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

3/25/13 1:06:51 PM#44

It should be possible, it really should. However the allure of the almight greenback tends to throw many of the F2P titles down the dark road of "How can I get money NOW" instead of "How can I keep people playing for the long haul, thus spending money as a result".

 

Look at two recent B2P titles and you'll see what's looking like the new trend... Guild Wars 2 and Defiance. Neither of their cash shops have anything remotely resembling a pay 2 win element, and with flattened leveling curves the boosts they add are convenience items and not necessities to compete. They stores are, however, full of fluff. People like fluff. Different vehicle skins in Defiance, outfits and the like in GW2... people that like your game will pay for these things because they want them, not because they need them. It may take a few more successes (potential success with Defiance) and a few more failures, but I think this B2P model of the cosmetic, power-free shop will take hold as it continues to show the marketplace that this is where the real money lies. Quality game + Fun fluff = $$

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2847

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

3/25/13 1:16:13 PM#45

and make profit? Probably not possible. I think the most you can get away with is Pay 2 Get Ahead in terms of xp boosts, outside that though people just won't buy cosmetics that much , or they buy 1 and thats all.

 

I think the best bet to cut out the 'advantage' would be having freemium, though technically thats doing the same thing or you could consider it not really F2P. 

 

@Volk: ... he directly said against boosts like I know for sure GW2 has and defiance I'm sure will have, so they have "Pay 2 Get Ahead" that he is talking against.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

3/25/13 1:33:32 PM#46
Originally posted by Purutzil

 

@Volk: ... he directly said against boosts like I know for sure GW2 has and defiance I'm sure will have, so they have "Pay 2 Get Ahead" that he is talking against.

I know, but to be fair to at least GW2, the boosts are so minor and the leveling curve so flattened that you don't really get ahead by buying them. A boost that gives you +10 exp per kill when you get most experience from event completion... it's really a waste of money. They're more something someone might get if they have a few gems lying around after getting what they really wanted. Plus, you get them from the Black Lion Chests as well. (I can't say how beneficial they are in Defiance yet, didn't really look at them.)

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2745

3/25/13 1:38:19 PM#47
I have never played a F2P game worth my time. At this point, I don't mind paying for something good, so just because something is "free" does not mean anything to me. "F2P" is simply a marketing gimmick, nothing more. And for me personally, at this point, it is one that has utterly failed.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5668

3/25/13 1:46:23 PM#48
Originally posted by Axehilt

F2P?  Absolutely.  Plenty of examples like TF2 and LoL.

F2P MMORPG?  A little shakier, as there aren't really games being built along the "pay for playstyles" model, and XP potions alone, while probably the #1 source of income for those games and not really an advantage, doesn't seem like it will quite be enough.

Here's hoping players strongly support the fun games which only sell playstyle/vanity, and avoid supporting pay2win games.  The more that happens, the more LoL-style games will exist which focus on creating an incredibly fun core experience supported by playstyle unlock purchases.

I understand where you're coming from but that isn't what I find attractive to purchase in a cash shop.

For one thing I'm sort of old school, or cut my teeth on older games, and I don't see cosmetics as any less valuable than gear.  Cosmetics used to be status items and the rest of cosmetic customization used to come with the game.  I do buy the occasional cosmetic, but overall not so much.

If I spend money in a cash shop I want it to enhance my account and I want to feel like I got something worthwhile for my money.  I buy things like character slots, inventory space, and other unlocks.  I buy mounts for cosmetic and functional reasons.  I will occasionally buy item packs (like the Duty Officer packs in STO - I just bought about $20 worth last week) and things that are account wide.  I also sometimes buy enchantment success boosters, xp / gold/ drop boosters, and such.

I haven't bought Zen for Dilly or purchased Gems through the GW2 store, but I would consider something like that as well.

I don't buy items that are rented (30 day mounts) and I typically don't buy combat buffs or heal pots and the like.

To me most all of it is pay to win since you're paying for something that you don't have to get through game play.  Even if it's just a cosmetic it still frees up time to do other things.  I don't really mind "pay to win" as long as it doesn't give a direct advantaage to success in an encounter (damage buffs for pvp, fast super healing potions for pvp).

In all it depends on if the game is fun and how much I feel like I have to pay monthly in order to enjoy how I play.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 936

3/25/13 1:57:56 PM#49

Every game is pay to win. 

 

If the game has a cash shop, you can buy stuff that might improve your performance in-game. However, any game that has an economic system offers the ability for players to get the best gear available through stuff like player shops or auction houses. There's really no difference. Generally speaking, people can get the same stuff in-game, through trade, as they could by just dropping some coin in the cash shop. It's just the cash shop makes it easier. 

 

Why on Earth would anyone want to make a game where they couldn't or wouldn't convince people to spend money? I'd be really interested to know if there is even a market for that. If so, then maybe there should be a community project put together where game devs can donate their time to make a true F2P game. At the end of the day, people need to get paid. If they weren't paying the fry slingers at McDonald's, do you really think they'd be there? What if your work asked you to come in and work for free from now on? 

 

As far as I'm concerned, I wish they'd offer me more options to pay to win. I'd pay for a 2000x Exp boost in SWTOR so I only had to ever do the side quests once. Story quests, I'm good with. That's why I'm there. That's all good. If I have to be violated by Darth Lachris one more time, though, I'm probably going to break down and cry. 

Crazkanuk

----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3542

3/25/13 2:10:49 PM#50

I'd say TF2 is a brilliant game that is F2P and doesn't sell advantages.

LoL, PS2 and EQ2 are also pretty good when it comes to F2P. 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

3/25/13 2:19:07 PM#51
Originally posted by Scot

Once you have a cash shop its not if it will have P2W elements, it is just when. Some may have staved of P2W elements for years but they all go P2W in the end.

The classic these days is starting out with transport buffs, teleport scrolls and the like. These help you get to top level quicker. Trying to make out not getting to top level more quickly is not P2W is a joke.

There is no "winning" in PvE. And getting to max level faster ... is what it is. I suppose you can call it an advantage. But unless you are betting with a friend to see who gets to max level first .. i don't see how that is "winning" anything.

Secondly, it is only fair that someone who is subsidizing your game gets some advantage. It is also fair that your money is as good as his.

If it breaks immersion and makes the game non-game for you, it is fine. But i don't see a problem. I play lots of F2P games with what you will call P2W cash shops. It does not detract me from having fun.

  psiic

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 584

3/25/13 2:36:06 PM#52

Sure..

 

1) Conquer a technologically advanced nation with pre-exsisting game studios

 

2) Impose slavery in violation of UN resolututions

 

3) Capture and force some game designers into slavery

 

4) Force your slaves to code your game

 

5) Capture more slaves because the first batch starved to death because you did not spend money to feed them

 

6) Rinse and repeat until your game is finished

 

Totally boggles the mind how ignorant and selfish this new generation of " gimme" gamers has become. 

 

I just can not believe we have now managed to raise a whole generation of young people who now truly feel they are 

 

entitled to anything and everything they DEMAND and should not have to do anything for it at all.

 

I am really starting to see the whole picture and it really scares the hell outta me.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3565

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/25/13 2:42:53 PM#53
Originally posted by psiic

Sure..

 

1) Conquer a technologically advanced nation with pre-exsisting game studios

 

2) Impose slavery in violation of UN resolututions

 

3) Capture and force some game designers into slavery

 

4) Force your slaves to code your game

 

5) Capture more slaves because the first batch starved to death because you did not spend money to feed them

 

6) Rinse and repeat until your game is finished

 

Totally boggles the mind how ignorant and selfish this new generation of " gimme" gamers has become. 

 

I just can not believe we have now managed to raise a whole generation of young people who now truly feel they are 

 

entitled to anything and everything they DEMAND and should not have to do anything for it at all.

 

I am really starting to see the whole picture and it really scares the hell outta me.

As well it should to any thoughtful, rational individual.  We have now had several generations of people with that entitlement complex.  As gaming has become more main stream, it more clearly reflects a cross section of that general population.  You do know why its called the main stream? Because its too shallow to be a river... ^^

F2P is simply another business model. If you don't like it, don't play games that use it. Its really just that simple.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/25/13 2:50:20 PM#54

Subscriptions are P2W, paying a company to win at screwing me over.

2 options here folks, lets look at them.

I just bought a game, here is more money so I can keep playing it.

Or.

I have this game, I would really like this ___. Here is some money for ___.

Those used to be screwed over will ALWAYS try to find a way to make the other way look worse because they dont want to have to admit to themselves that they are bent over and grabbing their ankles and instead want to make the other look worse so they can relax, and it wont hurt as much.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

3/25/13 3:23:08 PM#55
Option 3, pay a sub that costs less than most any other expenditure for the month and get more for it since my time is worth money too. I like the bending over comment though, classy.

In the end you decide what your time is worth. I don't now about you but my free time is worth waaaay more than my normal time, far beyond 15.00/month. Get just as much in return? Depends on the game I guess. Have Aion fans gotten many updates in the last six months? I know WoW/Rift/EvE players have.

Why? Well that's the core point in all of this. Speaking from a players standpoint F2P is the future, viva revolution! But.... word coming back is not so promising for this making the MMOs we love to play for free so much. Huge leap in players since the F2P boom but the revenue hasn't "clicked" yet. Time will tell.
  Siug

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/12
Posts: 984

3/25/13 3:28:48 PM#56
In my opinion f2p is the worst thing that has happened to MMO's because they tend to be either generic and cheap garbage or plain p2w with permanent stat boosts and such from cash shop. Their concept is to make your gameplay as miserable as possible without forking out money for things that you get in p2p or b2p games. So in my opinion it's not possible to make an enjoyable f2p game without nickle and diming you every moment.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

3/25/13 4:15:54 PM#57
Originally posted by Aelious


Why? Well that's the core point in all of this. Speaking from a players standpoint F2P is the future, viva revolution! But.... word coming back is not so promising for this making the MMOs we love to play for free so much. Huge leap in players since the F2P boom but the revenue hasn't "clicked" yet. Time will tell.

It has. F2P is making already as much money as P2P in the market place. The trend is that it is going to gain market share. It is already 50-50 and F2P will have higher revenue share by the end of this year.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

3/25/13 4:16:29 PM#58
Originally posted by Piiritus
 So in my opinion it's not possible to make an enjoyable f2p game without nickle and diming you every moment.

May be not for you. I found many F2P games enjoyable.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

3/25/13 4:23:48 PM#59
Originally posted by CalmOceans

I know it's possible because I played Street Gears and the only thing you could buy was outfits, cosmetic items.

But all other F2P games I played are ,for all intended purpose, Pay2Win games. I think it's purely greed tbh.

You've used Street Gears several times as your example, but the game went offline a while ago. While they may have sold only cosmetics, it seems it wasn't generating sustainable revenue, so are all the other guys 'purely greed' or 'smarter business model'?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/25/13 4:30:27 PM#60
Originally posted by Aelious

Why? Well that's the core point in all of this. Speaking from a players standpoint F2P is the future, viva revolution! But.... word coming back is not so promising for this making the MMOs we love to play for free so much. Huge leap in players since the F2P boom but the revenue hasn't "clicked" yet. Time will tell.

 Hasnt clicked yet?

Name me the ONLY gaming company that spent around 400 MILLION DOLLARS aquiring or buying a stake into other companies in the last 2 years.

Only one...Nexon.

In fact, only Nexon and Perfect World, two FREE 2 PLAY COMPANIES have gone on spending sprees spending almost as much money as most of the subscription based MMO gaming companies MAKE A YEAR.

Remove SoE, EA and Blizzard and Nexon makes more than the entire industry combined. 1.3 billion in revenue. Throw in PWE and they make mroe than Blizzard even outside the MMO world....on free games.

Turbine, F2P is the future. Funcom, F2P is the future. SoE, F2P is the future. EA, F2P is the future.

The only company that matters that hasnt said it publicly is Blizzard.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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