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Elder Scrolls Online

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General Discussion  » There are no raids... can you live with that?

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549 posts found
  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/24/13 2:41:16 AM#261
Originally posted by Vorthanion

Of course playstyle is an issue, do you really think casuals aren't interested in progressing their characters too?  Yet, have you seen any end game that lets them progress wtihout raiding?  After a while, you get tired of just re-rolling once you get up high enough that the only option is to raid.

So instead you want to be handed gear that in turn makes the raid encounters a joke? Anytime devs put it even behind long rep/token grinds (to discourage raiders, but still leaving it open to casuals) they just complain or quit anyway.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1906

3/24/13 2:46:35 AM#262
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Vorthanion

Of course playstyle is an issue, do you really think casuals aren't interested in progressing their characters too?  Yet, have you seen any end game that lets them progress wtihout raiding?  After a while, you get tired of just re-rolling once you get up high enough that the only option is to raid.

So instead you want to be handed gear that in turn makes the raid encounters a joke? Anytime devs put it even behind long rep/token grinds (to discourage raiders, but still leaving it open to casuals) they just complain or quit anyway.

This is precisely why you can't have a mix of this type in an MMO.  You either cater to casuals or you don't.  I think this kind of crappy game design is a big part of the reason why so many MMOs are failing.  It isn't just about the combat, it's the way the games are designed to screw certain segments of the player base in order to cater to multiple  competing play styles.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1906

3/24/13 2:47:47 AM#263
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Vorthanion

Of course playstyle is an issue, do you really think casuals aren't interested in progressing their characters too?  Yet, have you seen any end game that lets them progress wtihout raiding?  After a while, you get tired of just re-rolling once you get up high enough that the only option is to raid.

So instead you want to be handed gear that in turn makes the raid encounters a joke? Anytime devs put it even behind long rep/token grinds (to discourage raiders, but still leaving it open to casuals) they just complain or quit anyway.

They complain and quit due to the bait and swtich of the game design and rightly so.  There's nothing I hate more than an MMO that advertises itself as casual or casual friendly only to become hardcore midway through and I don't think I'm the only one that thinks that crap won't fly anymore.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/24/13 2:51:27 AM#264
Originally posted by Vorthanion

This is precisely why you can't have a mix of this type in an MMO.  You either cater to casuals or you don't.  I think this kind of crappy game design is a big part of the reason why so many MMOs are failing.  It isn't just about the combat, it's the way the games are designed to screw certain segments of the player base in order to cater to multiple  competing play styles.

I disagree. Mainly due to WoW. It honestly does a solid job of providing for both. I also find your disdain for raiders pretty hilarious when everything you accuse them of is exactly what you are doing. Whats more, many mmo's also do a solid job of it, Rift for example, though Swtor did also, and as much as they still want to complain so does TSW.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3564

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/24/13 7:31:50 AM#265
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Progression raiding is one thing that I think holds back the themeparks of the genre.  If it has raids, then it's all about raiding.  All the other progression is secondary and second rate.  Either a game has raids and is about raiding or it doesn't have them at all.  I really hope they won't add progression raiding to the game.

Why cant there be both?

....as seen from past games, raiders cannot stand the thought of other play styles / non-raiding content getting equitable rewards to raids.  For such a minority of players, they are incredibly noisy and quite frankly, hateful.

Exactly.  Anything anyone else gets is called a "welfare epic" by all too many of those clowns.  It doesn't matter what the system is, if its not a raid drop, its "welfare".  I doubt many of them even understand the term, let alone its proper application.

Obsession with dps meters and gear score has corrupted what was once an enjoyable activity.  I fault the Devs as much as I do those who endlessly chase after the latest shiny purples.  Its their designs that aid and abet these types of obsessions, and exclusions.

Given the time/talent and experience it takes to create this type of content, and the small percentage of a given player base that ever sees it, one wonders if its a good application of that time and talent.  But thats up to the Dev's to determine (shrug).

  Shadanwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1869

3/24/13 8:20:45 AM#266
I just don't raid.
  Varking

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 435

Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody the power, the other to crave it.

3/24/13 8:22:39 AM#267
AVA raids do not count?
  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/24/13 1:11:59 PM#268
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Progression raiding is one thing that I think holds back the themeparks of the genre.  If it has raids, then it's all about raiding.  All the other progression is secondary and second rate.  Either a game has raids and is about raiding or it doesn't have them at all.  I really hope they won't add progression raiding to the game.

Why cant there be both?

....as seen from past games, raiders cannot stand the thought of other play styles / non-raiding content getting equitable rewards to raids.  For such a minority of players, they are incredibly noisy and quite frankly, hateful.

Exactly.  Anything anyone else gets is called a "welfare epic" by all too many of those clowns.  It doesn't matter what the system is, if its not a raid drop, its "welfare".  I doubt many of them even understand the term, let alone its proper application.

Obsession with dps meters and gear score has corrupted what was once an enjoyable activity.  I fault the Devs as much as I do those who endlessly chase after the latest shiny purples.  Its their designs that aid and abet these types of obsessions, and exclusions.

Given the time/talent and experience it takes to create this type of content, and the small percentage of a given player base that ever sees it, one wonders if its a good application of that time and talent.  But thats up to the Dev's to determine (shrug).

It all depends what Zenimax wants. If 50,000 subscribers lifetime is their goal, they will get that. If they're trying to be the next big dog MMO, I don't think theyre going to succeed.

 

There is nothing wrong with character progression. Yes, I'll have a blast doing all 3 factions quests. But I'll finish that in a month or two since I'm buying the game day 1. Bottom line is -- No one will consistently do World Bosses if theyre giving worse gear than crafting. The first few times it'll be fun, then there wont be a point too. Cyrodill will be fun for awhile, but the game isnt going to survive on that alone. But again, it all depends what Zenimax is really looking for. If they want to be the next big MMO, I dont think they'll succeed in that regard.

 

If you're looking at reasons the two most successful MMORPG's of all time had their success -- WoW and Everquest -- It's because for 95% of people there was always a way to improve your character. If WoW was a game about "raiding" or used to be, then why did casuals play it? It isnt just because it has Blizzard's name on it or Warcraft. Majority of WoW players dont care about the story. Dont act like neither one didnt attract people with the "carrot on a stick" waving in front of you mentality -- People would group grind the same mob camp in Everquest for hours and not even find an upgrade, people would do Raids even if they didnt get an upgrade in WoW -- But atleast there was the chance you were getting an upgrade.

 

My theory has always been: If you're not willing to put in the time, you don't deserve the best gear in the game. If Crafting isnt super easy, that's fine with me, although I did suggest it would be neat if some of ESO's hard dungeons (If any are hard) drop some of the mats to make the top crafting gear -- But again I know people are like "I dont like that, I want to be play the game by myself and still have access to the best gear in the game" even though they claim gear isnt an incentive for them to play.

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1132

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

3/24/13 1:17:30 PM#269
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

So can you live with a MMO that has no raids? Or will that make ESO a pit stop for you before you run off to a new MMO that you and your guildies can really enjoy?

Info comes from HERE!!!! : There are no raids, after all – "That's not Elder Scrolls," says Game Director Matt Firor – but there are four-man dungeons and three-faction open PvP with sieges in the beleaguered province of Cyrodiil.

POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!

No raids means no endless gear progression pitfalls other than what I will assume will come from PvP - which means, you actually are challenged by real players vs Google available predicitable pve pixel strategies.

 

Sign me up -

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/24/13 1:20:02 PM#270
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

So can you live with a MMO that has no raids? Or will that make ESO a pit stop for you before you run off to a new MMO that you and your guildies can really enjoy?

Info comes from HERE!!!! : There are no raids, after all – "That's not Elder Scrolls," says Game Director Matt Firor – but there are four-man dungeons and three-faction open PvP with sieges in the beleaguered province of Cyrodiil.

POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!

No raids means no endless gear progression pitfalls other than what I will assume will come from PvP - which means, you actually are challenged by real players vs Google available predicitable pve pixel strategies.

 

Sign me up -

Gear will still be a big factor in PvP -- Dont act like it wont be.

 

In which case, it'll be a crafting grind. Then you'll cry that because you choose not to craft you're being placed at a dis-advantage.

 

PvP isnt going to give gear. Crafting has already been said 100x by developers to give THE best gear in the game, and dungeons will give "good" gear that crafting can even improve on.

 

You're going to play a game where crafting is the progression and everyone is doing that -- I'd rather fight stuff for the best gear than sit around crafting for the best gear.

 

The most successful MMOs have done the "carrot on a stick" waving to keep you playing. If Zenimax doesnt care about being a big dog MMO, then theyre on the right track. If they wanted to make an MMO that is going to last 10 years like WoW or Everquest, they won't succeed.

 

I wouldnt pay $15 a month play Skyrim.

  Telondariel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/11/10
Posts: 874

3/24/13 1:27:10 PM#271
Originally posted by Celcius

I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

Pretty much this.  People that raid will go to a game that caters to that aspect of gaming. 

 

Raiding has never interested me, so I'm not phased at all by its exclusion in TESO.  There are other draws to the game for me, and I'm sure I will be quite content playing it when it launches.

 

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/24/13 1:28:54 PM#272
Originally posted by Telondariel
Originally posted by Celcius

I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

Pretty much this.  People that raid will go to a game that caters to that aspect of gaming. 

 

Raiding has never interested me, so I'm not phased at all by its exclusion in TESO.  There are other draws to the game for me, and I'm sure I will be quite content playing it when it launches.

 

So why does WoW have 9+ active million subscribers, if 90% of people dont raid?

 

Most people stay subscribed to WoW because they feel they can upgrade their character.  Feeling like you can get better gear is why MMOs became successful the last decade.

  Miblet

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

3/24/13 1:53:45 PM#273

If it's fun, it'll be fine with or without raid content.  If it can keep people entertained over the long haul.

People are, as usualy imposing their own views on why raids should be in or scrapped on how they feel about them, but fail to realise there are many many more people who may enjoy them and removing choices is never a good thing, even if some of those choices you do not enjoy.

People argue the development costs / time for raids could be put to better use elsewhere but where?  Solo or group content gets consumed at a FAR faster pace for the investment, and large gaps in content make people leave.  PvP content suffers the same problem as raids, in most MMORPGs it gets samey and repetitve, then as with raiding, people stop (there are those who don't in either raiding or PvP but they are not the majority).

 

Either way, nobody knows how it will play out yet.

Like it or love it, no game will appeal to everyone.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/24/13 1:59:00 PM#274
Originally posted by Miblet

If it's fun, it'll be fine with or without raid content.  If it can keep people entertained over the long haul.

People are, as usualy imposing their own views on why raids should be in or scrapped on how they feel about them, but fail to realise there are many many more people who may enjoy them and removing choices is never a good thing, even if some of those choices you do not enjoy.

People argue the development costs / time for raids could be put to better use elsewhere but where?  Solo or group content gets consumed at a FAR faster pace for the investment, and large gaps in content make people leave.  PvP content suffers the same problem as raids, in most MMORPGs it gets samey and repetitve, then as with raiding, people stop (there are those who don't in either raiding or PvP but they are not the majority).

 

Either way, nobody knows how it will play out yet.

Like it or love it, no game will appeal to everyone.

But no MMORPG thrives off no end-game or ways to gear up that take time or skill. Simple fact. The game gets bought off hype, then it spikes downwards drastically. SWTOR went from 3 million to 500k in a year. That is NOT good. 2.5 million decided playing their game isnt worth it even after going free to play. That just sounds humiliating to say outloud.

 

My opinion is that this game will be subscription based. Wouldnt advertising it as free to play attract a group too? Or be a good quality to advertise? I am guessing they'll just drop the news in a few months, closer to release so people dont really have an alternative if they are that mad about it. (Doesnt matter to me either way, I'm used to subscription based MMOs)

  Miblet

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

3/24/13 2:02:33 PM#275

How does no raiding equate to no end game?

They have to have something planned that will keep people occupied to assume that traditional PvE raiding is the only possibility for success is as niave as those assuming only end game PvP would lead to success.

Without the end game hook it will fail, I never said anything to contradict this.  Your reply seems to assert that this hook MUST be traditional raiding for success which isn't true, just as it wouldn't be for PvP.

SWToR had it's fair share of problems, and the scary thing is that if you look at most MMO releases they suffer similar drop offs, even those with end game raiding, as the current trend seems to be check out the new game then return to familiar territory for the vast majority as they expect more than is delivered compared to their 'home' game.

 

I do agree this will be a sub based game.

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

3/24/13 2:11:10 PM#276
I'm primarily a PvPer, and I can definitely do without raids.
  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/24/13 2:14:01 PM#277
Originally posted by Miblet

How does no raiding equate to no end game?

They have to have something planned that will keep people occupied to assume that traditional PvE raiding is the only possibility for success is as niave as those assuming only end game PvP would lead to success.

Without the end game hook it will fail, I never said anything to contradict this.  Your reply seems to assert that this hook MUST be traditional raiding for success which isn't true, just as it wouldn't be for PvP.

SWToR had it's fair share of problems, and the scary thing is that if you look at most MMO releases they suffer similar drop offs, even those with end game raiding, as the current trend seems to be check out the new game then return to familiar territory for the vast majority as they expect more than is delivered compared to their 'home' game.

 

I do agree this will be a sub based game.

The game needs to have a gear grind, whether it be from crafting or raiding. Casual Elder Scrolls fans wont pay $15 a month for that long if they feel like theyve "accomplished" their character or "lived their story" with no way to get better.

 

Again, if crafting isnt easy to do, that is great. But I dont forsee how it can be hard -- If its just ingredients in the world, I imagine there will be a way to grind them or know their spawn locations and farm them that way. My idea was if dungeons are actually hard, have some bosses drop some of the rare crafting ingrediants. But again, I know there is a large base of people who are fully against needing to go into a dungeon or anything for the best gear, since they'd rather obtain the best gear playing solo in an MMO.

 

As I said before, the reason EQ and WoW succeeded so big is because at times you were FORCED to group. A lot of the times in Everquest you were forced to group just to level. If given the choice, most people will stay play solo. Ala SWTOR. I felt no obligation or reason to group up with others. And then eventually, you feel like you're alone in what is supposed to be some lively big world but it isnt. Then in WoW you were forced to group to get the best gear.

 

 

  Miblet

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

3/24/13 2:22:38 PM#278

I would imagine the top end crafting mats would be rare and from group+ based content, with the basic components being widely available.  This would provide the grind as people would want the materials.

I would even say similar to old fashioned EQ crafting would be great, but people would want me hanged if it was (not many top end crafters).  For those not familiar with EQ crafting of days gone by, you could fail combines and lose everything,  and the truly godly components dropped from end game zones.  Frustrating for many, a mark of achievement for those who stuck with it (and the rewards from crafting).

 

I do agree though people should be encouraged to group up more in MMOs as they seem to be actively discouraging it in most games currently until end game.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/24/13 2:28:03 PM#279
Originally posted by Miblet

I would imagine the top end crafting mats would be rare and from group+ based content, with the basic components being widely available.  This would provide the grind as people would want the materials.

I would even say similar to old fashioned EQ crafting would be great, but people would want me hanged if it was (not many top end crafters).  For those not familiar with EQ crafting of days gone by, you could fail combines and lose everything,  and the truly godly components dropped from end game zones.  Frustrating for many, a mark of achievement for those who stuck with it (and the rewards from crafting).

 

I do agree though people should be encouraged to group up more in MMOs as they seem to be actively discouraging it in most games currently until end game.

As long as crafting isnt easy, I am totally okay with that. I think people have this theory like "People who play games a lot have a superiorty complex -- They dont want others to have access to what they get" And that isnt true at all, atleast in my case. I've never been "maxed out" during any WoW expansion or any other MMO I've played that I enjoyed. Knowing I didnt "complete" the game per-say is big for me. I want to feel like I can get better gear, even if I've never done that.

 

My mindset has always been if you dont put in the time, you dont deserve the best gear. Goes for life and anything. If you dont put in the time why should you be rewarded? And isnt just for raiding. If crafting is hard or a grind, I dont mind AT ALL. If its incredibly easy, then there is an end-game problem.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1882

3/24/13 2:31:36 PM#280
Originally posted by Telondariel
Originally posted by Celcius

I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

Pretty much this.  People that raid will go to a game that caters to that aspect of gaming. 

 

Raiding has never interested me, so I'm not phased at all by its exclusion in TESO.  There are other draws to the game for me, and I'm sure I will be quite content playing it when it launches.

 

Off topic.  But I love GW2 with all my heart.  But there is no sign GW2 actually have 3 million players.  You can't prove that.  The only thing you can prove is they sold 3million copies.  No one know how many people still play today.  Besides GW2 dont' have a subscription.  So just by that, they have a much easier time holding the players.

Besides, even if you remove raid from wow.  Wow probably still have much more content compare to other mmorpg.

The question is why does a mmorpg with raid bothered you.  I think the problem is with gear tier.  And only raider usually is rewarded with the best gear.

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