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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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154 posts found
  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1800

"I shall take your position into consideration"

3/23/13 6:36:55 PM#21
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

that makes no sense

how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

ok pvp I could agree with

but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

I can't play the content, I can't level, I am gated from all that content while everyone else can use it.  Rift Storm Legion - I have a sub to Rift.  I didn't buy Storm Legion.  I can't progress and the entirety of that is locked behind the xpac.  Progression is gated behind the paid content.  The same is true for WoW.  I own up to BC.  I would have to buy all the other expacs in order to advance.  Again, it's gated behind a monetary purchase.

Are you suggesting that just having access to content added by expansions is an advantage over someone else?

Well it may be considered that way, but in a slightly different context than I believe the OP used.

Of course you are better off than someone else who does not purchase an expansion which you own because you have more content to play through. However, it does not give you a competitive advantage as you are no longer matched with the person who does not purchase the expansion.

In case of WoW which you talk about, you do different raids and dungeons than the person without the expac, you are in different BG group, you are in different arena group, etc. You no longer compete with that person in any way as the game is pretty much divided by levels. Maybe if you two would met somewhere in open world, he would have an advantage as he would be higher level and would be stronger in PvP.

I am just trying to better understand your reasoning, not trying to offend you in any way.

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2316

World > Quest Progression

3/23/13 6:45:08 PM#22
Originally posted by Dihoru
 
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
You can make a game without selling advantages, however normally that way you'll get into fanancial problems pretty fast. In the end they all go that route. Cosmetics and non-P2W items can only get you that far. B2P and a non-P2W cash shop are possible though. With F2P expect the worst at some point in time or another. They have to make money somehow.

^ Ignorance is bliss.

 

I'm not sure what specifically you're talking about but I agree with Joey.

 

Aion proved this even though they also sold stated items if I'm not mistaken.

 

GW2 has shown this partially because you could consider the gem/gold buying P2W.  GW2 itemization is a little atypical of most titles.

 

Allods upgrades? STO lockboxes? LotRO quest lock outs? EQ2/VG race/class/item & spell tier locks? Each of these have been railed against at one point or another for being horrible F2P models.

 

The fact remains that developers need money and it's not going to be made strictly by xp potions and cosmetic items for any type of quality game with regular updates.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3563

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/23/13 6:45:32 PM#23
Originally posted by gessekai332

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

Depends on what you mean by advantage. EXP potions and fluff are one thing. Weapons and armor quite another.  This IS a business after all, and the object is to make a profit on their investment. I have no problem what so ever with that.

In fact, if I find such a game to be entertaining, I make a point of using the cash shop to support it.

Path of Exile is an example of a game that does a good job of that. There are others as well. People who go into hysterics about "P2W" need to remember the old saying. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.  TANSTAAFL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain't_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3563

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/23/13 6:49:26 PM#24
Originally posted by CalmOceans

I know it's possible because I played Street Gears and the only thing you could buy was outfits, cosmetic items.

But all other F2P games I played are ,for all intended purpose, Pay2Win games. I think it's purely greed tbh.

What is this "greed" you speak of?  That people want to make a profit from their investment? What is the difference between profit and "greed"? Its been my experience that many people use the word "greed" to mean; "you have more than me" or "you want more than I think you should".

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1236

3/23/13 8:07:54 PM#25

I don't mind the current state of F2P. I really can't think of any that have an extreme P2W system.

The #1 reason why F2P will always be better than the sub model is POPULATION. EverQuest 2 was a ghost town. Now, there are loads of people running around. A game with little player intereaction is a dead game in my book. It's like going to a forum without any other users.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2316

World > Quest Progression

3/23/13 8:43:30 PM#26
In situations like SoE games where there is a sub option as well sure, F2P is a great addition. I wonder though whether mega servers like TESO or advanced phasing like CRZ will eliminate the need for free players as a means of bolstering the population of MMOs.
  worldalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/11
Posts: 401

Working hard on WorldAlpha

3/23/13 9:33:36 PM#27
Originally posted by maplestone

Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

I tried that with our last beta, the earnings from ads is meager to say the least.

Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/24/13 1:20:20 AM#28
Originally posted by worldalpha
Originally posted by maplestone

Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

I tried that with our last beta, the earnings from ads is meager to say the least.

I guess the problem is that it's hard to use that gamer-attention more efficiently advertise anything other than your own cash-shop.

For a while, I was wondering if the toy companies were going to get into MMOs as a promotional tool for their toy lines but I suppose the costs are far too large for it to be used as some sort of loss-leader.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6827

3/24/13 1:34:09 AM#29


Originally posted by gessekai332

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?


If people find worth their money and are spending on certain virtual items, why would you think of ways how not to sell those items?

You make no sense.

  NetSage

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1009

3/24/13 1:36:44 AM#30
Yes,  personally I would buy cosmetic items just support great games.  If the game is truly great I'll spend the extra money.  A good example would be dota 2.  Only cosmetic items are bought.
  NetSage

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1009

3/24/13 1:40:23 AM#31
Originally posted by maplestone

Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

Not really true.  Why do you think cable and satillite cost so much?  It's because they pay huge amounts of money to the tv networks (even the local ones) to be able to broadcast their channels.  IMO it's a horrible example because they take money from advertising and then ask for more so you can see the ads :P.

  Rayshe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

3/24/13 1:45:23 AM#32

TSW was going good. it was going REALLY good. Then the non subbed idea has brought in things like Cash for AP. This makes me very sad. Hopefully the people i talk to on the site can create enough of a negative buzz to get this bad idea Curbstomped... and fast.

 

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/24/13 2:08:30 AM#33
Originally posted by NetSage

Why do you think cable and satillite cost so much?

I've got rabbit ears.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

3/24/13 11:02:23 AM#34

Of course it is possible. The question is whether it is good enough to survive.

I think you can sell content like access to dungeons/characters (the LOL model) without selling advantages.

  simmihi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 508

3/24/13 11:16:47 AM#35
There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.
  faxnadu

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 953

3/24/13 11:18:12 AM#36

free to play with cash shop selling cosmetics , mounts and if housing then housing items stuff like that. it survives nicely.

dont need to sell exp boosts or anything that kinda of advantage stuff.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

3/24/13 11:19:39 AM#37
Originally posted by simmihi
There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

 

  simmihi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 508

3/24/13 11:29:04 AM#38
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by simmihi
There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

 

Yea, but that's in a game where gear drops like popcorn. In a 30min session, I vendor (for gold) 2-3 bags of rares, that's like 80 items. Extremely abundant drops = anyone could get very good gear for cheap = only extra-rares sell.

In a game with a "normal" approach, the company could just increase the fee to something like 25% of the trade + something fixed. I'm thinking in a market for mounts, special pets / companions, gear upgrade modules (items which make your gear 1% better, but you need to already have the gear) and such.

  Adam1902

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/04
Posts: 514

3/24/13 11:32:11 AM#39

Path of Exile have done so.

They don't sell "advantages" in the way of XP boost, drop rate etc. Rather, they sell stash tabs, non-combat pets, item effects... When they get the trading system in, I believe you're going to have to pay for an item to keep your shop open too.

I love GGG.

_________
Currently in casual mode!
Playing: Path of Exile, Tribal Wars

Watching: Albion Online

Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

3/24/13 11:37:18 AM#40
Originally posted by simmihi
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by simmihi
There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

 

Yea, but that's in a game where gear drops like popcorn. In a 30min session, I vendor (for gold) 2-3 bags of rares, that's like 80 items. Extremely abundant drops = anyone could get very good gear for cheap = only extra-rares sell.

In a game with a "normal" approach, the company could just increase the fee to something like 25% of the trade + something fixed. I'm thinking in a market for mounts, special pets / companions, gear upgrade modules (items which make your gear 1% better, but you need to already have the gear) and such.

It just redefine what "good" means. Sure everyone has millions, and gold gear is more common than common. But how often do you get a Echo Fury about 1100 dps? I got exactly ONE and i played since released. It will always be like that. Only the extreme rare will sell because the price is always related to the labor to get it. If you can get an item in 5 min of playing, no one is going to pay a cent for it.

I suppose even if blizz charge more, the $200+ items are still going to sell. But again, those are rare, and i doubt there are that many transaction. That is the problem with selling stuff earned in game. Either it is easilly earned and worth nothing, or it is very very hard to earn, and there will be few sales.

That is why selling advantage works better. If an advantage cannot be gained in game and cannot be traded, the company can both charge a high price and sell a lot (since many player will want one). There is no supply constraint (like in the case of RMAH).

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