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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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  gessekai332

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 838

 
OP  3/23/13 2:03:02 PM#1

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

3/23/13 2:09:01 PM#2

I know it's possible because I played Street Gears and the only thing you could buy was outfits, cosmetic items.

But all other F2P games I played are ,for all intended purpose, Pay2Win games. I think it's purely greed tbh.

  gessekai332

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 838

 
OP  3/23/13 2:14:15 PM#3
Originally posted by CalmOceans

I know it's possible because I played Street Gears and the only thing you could buy was outfits, cosmetic items.

But all other F2P games are ,for all intended purpose, Pay2Win games. I think it's purely greed tbh.

i feel like only league of legends was the only f2p ive ever played that didnt leave a bitter taste in my mouth. whenever i bought something in that game i felt that it 1) was worth the money, 2) wasnt cheating, 3) was rewarding the developer for providing me with an enjoyable game.  All other f2p games always went the quick greed route into trying to trick me into giving them money (RNG treasure boxes) or forcing me to give them money (p2win). these such games onl provided me with 2 months of game time tops before i quit and never looked back because i was so bitter towards them for cheating me.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2666

3/23/13 2:16:34 PM#4
Originally posted by gessekai332

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

Not really, there usually needs to be an advantage of sorts (XP, earning potential or something else) to make people want to pay. There are ways around this such as Cryptic's take of allowing you to trade for cash shop items/currency with other players while maintaining the items at a tolerable level ( example in  STO: you can get say the original enterprize as a low level grinding ship which works well for the first dozen or so levels but it doesn't offer a advantage over normal ships you purchase at the same level, same goes with the level cap store ships, they're good but they're not as good as the fleet issue ships which you can get in-game).

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

3/23/13 2:27:39 PM#5

Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.  If you don't pay them monthly you can't even play the game at all and will fall behind your peers.  All sub-locked games have a secondary revenue system that allows some players an advantage as well.

How about raid and dungeon time locks?  That is the key to p2p using time, the currency of sub-locked systems, to generate further revenue by keeping players playing and paying longer.

In a sub-locked game people claim that eveyrone is on even footing, but we know that's not true.  If you join EVE, WoW, Rift, or any other sub-locked game you won't be on the same footing as established players.  Not only that but all those games have secondary revenue sources that allow people to buy advantages even if they're small.

The main difference in p2p sub-locked systems is that time has a heavier currency value than in sub-free games.  Sub-free games allow for players to make up their time currency deficit with monetary currency.

And for the love of god.  Did you really need to make the umpteenth thread about ths?  Couldn't you just post the same old shtuff in one of the existing billion threads on this?  Or did you really think you came up with something new?  You didn't.  We've been regurgitating the same points over and over and over again.  You're preaching to your own choir and not going to convert anyone.  The same is true with those of us who prefer sub-free gaming.  We're not gong to convert you and your opinion about f2p/b2p is pretty much irrelevant.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

3/23/13 2:44:19 PM#6
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

that makes no sense

how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1800

"I shall take your position into consideration"

3/23/13 2:47:31 PM#7

Possible? Yes. Make the cash shop WoW-like before they allowed selling "the guardian cub" to other players.

Would it be profitable? Cannot really answer that.

If the game was really amazing and people were motivated to buy some supercool looking gear (which would be used just to change the looks of your gear obtained from other sources than CS), I believe it would possibly generate profit. But it is just pure speculation.

Maybe pure cosmetics would not attract enough customers for revenues to exceed cogs.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2312

World > Quest Progression

3/23/13 2:47:51 PM#8
I think there is a hidden factor of how much the game costs to function, either by simple design or just being a cheap game. If we're taking about the lineup of AAA fully featured F2P games then probably not as if there wasn't some type of advantage why would people pay?

I know first hand that as a player it's easy to just think as a player. In that mindset the more free the better, get your restrictions out of my gaming! What I don't think is concentrated on enough is the entity providing that content and that it's a business just like the one most of us work at. We may look at a company providing a game free as greedy because they create systems that force or strongly urge you to pay for things. If they didn't how would they find their game? NCSoft tried "all free, pay or not" with Aion and what happened? It was a sliver of revenue last quarter and NCWest was downsized.

F2P isn't just about the players.
  bliss14

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/11
Posts: 509

Ahh devil ether.

3/23/13 2:48:29 PM#9

Experience boosts aren't really pay to win in a themepark.  So you get to the plateau that everyone else will get to anyway?  Who cares.

 

edit:  skill boosts in a sandbox would be an entirely different story of course.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1800

"I shall take your position into consideration"

3/23/13 2:51:14 PM#10
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

that makes no sense

how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

3/23/13 2:53:46 PM#11
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

that makes no sense

how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

ok pvp I could agree with

but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

  Slappy1

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/12
Posts: 464

3/23/13 2:55:28 PM#12
PoE is pulling it off (so far) with just cosmetic's and stash tab (bank) upgrade's.Whether or not they can sustain the game with just this remain's to be seen.

Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

Arya Stark

  User Deleted
3/23/13 3:07:10 PM#13

Yes.  It is possible.  The key is selling convenience.  It's not the same as advantage assuming the two are not blurred.

 

Let's say a fast mount can be had for a huge amount of effort in game.  The same (or similiar) mount is available in the item shop.  The mount adds convenience to gameplay because it makes travel faster.

 

In P2P gaming (before item shops invaded them), the pattern was:

 

effort yielded achievement yielded reward yielded convenience

in other words, if you want the mount, you have to make an effort to get it

 

In F2P, one can skip the effort and achievement, and go directly to convenience.  In all except P2W, this is done without imbalancing the game.

 

item shop purchase yields reward yields convenience

in other words if you don't feel like making the effort, just buy it

 

 

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 295

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/23/13 4:17:12 PM#14

Even LoL allows you to buy an advantage in that you have more character options and the new and often OP release characters. But it was subtle enough to not be an issue.

There are a lot of things you can sell and not even impact the game, than there are other things you can sell which are not that much of an advantage as to concern you.

I don't mind if other players can buy a fleeting advantage though, as long as it's not something I can't obtain with gameplay, or something I need, I don't mind.  The main thing is, whether the game is fun to play without buying things... I can deal with other players having an advantage, whether they pay or play, there is often someone with an advantage anyway, but if the game is full of boring progression and painfully unenjoyable content which their selling a solution to, well that's just a bad game, it wasn't fun, and it often woln't be fun just because you bought out of the worst part either.

I actually have some really interesting business ideas which could introduce content which would greatly enrich games without any impact on the gameplay whatsoever, which would be compelling to buy and very profitable... but yeah, I have no incentive to share it >:D

With F2P taking over the market though, developers need to come up with creative ways to sell us desirable stuff, while still maintaining the fun and integrity of the game. Honestly, I've left games because of gamble boxes and other trashy MT behaviors... It shouldn't be tolerated...

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1318

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

3/23/13 4:20:53 PM#15
You can make a game without selling advantages, however normally that way you'll get into fanancial problems pretty fast. In the end they all go that route. Cosmetics and non-P2W items can only get you that far. B2P and a non-P2W cash shop are possible though. With F2P expect the worst at some point in time or another. They have to make money somehow.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2666

3/23/13 4:26:44 PM#16
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
You can make a game without selling advantages, however normally that way you'll get into fanancial problems pretty fast. In the end they all go that route. Cosmetics and non-P2W items can only get you that far. B2P and a non-P2W cash shop are possible though. With F2P expect the worst at some point in time or another. They have to make money somehow.

^ Ignorance is bliss.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5909

3/23/13 5:42:24 PM#17

I believe that EvE numbers should be standard for success. So how much money does it cost to keep server like EvE running per month?

also how much money would it cost to make new content/ player made content tools?

and on top of all that, how much it cost for social monitoring like bug tickets and GM each month?

 

all of this factored together.

 

maybe for each expansion or content update you make it so its all done through kick starters.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/23/13 5:49:00 PM#18

Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

3/23/13 6:17:47 PM#19
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

that makes no sense

how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

ok pvp I could agree with

but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

I can't play the content, I can't level, I am gated from all that content while everyone else can use it.  Rift Storm Legion - I have a sub to Rift.  I didn't buy Storm Legion.  I can't progress and the entirety of that is locked behind the xpac.  Progression is gated behind the paid content.  The same is true for WoW.  I own up to BC.  I would have to buy all the other expacs in order to advance.  Again, it's gated behind a monetary purchase.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Eir_S

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4694

GW2 socialist.

3/23/13 6:34:08 PM#20
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

that makes no sense

how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

ok pvp I could agree with

but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

I can't play the content, I can't level, I am gated from all that content while everyone else can use it.  Rift Storm Legion - I have a sub to Rift.  I didn't buy Storm Legion.  I can't progress and the entirety of that is locked behind the xpac.  Progression is gated behind the paid content.  The same is true for WoW.  I own up to BC.  I would have to buy all the other expacs in order to advance.  Again, it's gated behind a monetary purchase.

Yeah, and in addition to that, say you're a level 70 and someone is getting a raid together for a level 70 instance... these days in WoW it's almost always for transmog patterns.  I've literally seen level 70 players left out of raids in order to make room for level 85's because it's "faster" with them.  It's stupid.

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