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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why newer MMOs have not had the success WoW has had since WoW's release

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101 posts found
  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

3/23/13 8:51:35 AM#41

OP assessment of what he thinks happened, is not true.

People left EQ to try World of Warcraft, because WoW's beta was 80% EQ players. There were only a few MMORPG on the market and back then, everyone bought & tried any new MMORPG. As it stands, EQ player's beat World of Warcraft in 4 months, killed all the dragons and went back to a much harder and much more adult-minded game.

 

World of Warcraft's explosion was due to one thing.... in 2004 & 2005 the availability of always on internet, expoded.

Thus the playerbase exploded. Blizzard was well known and who was doing all the marketing.. as those kids were finding the internet games for the first time. EQ was already 4~5 years old..

New kids don't flock to old games...

 

 

World of Wascraft, was an anomoly. Fueled by the internet explosion.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1993

3/23/13 9:35:58 AM#42

ya I mean the poster above me answer the question.  The mmorpg market just not big enough to sustain that many players.

wow really only have 3 million or so player out side of China.  So the only way to become a successful mmorpg is become a wow killer.  What I mean is stealing sub from wow and other mmorpg. 

Alternatively mmorpg can "try" to get into the China market.  Which isn't always easy to do. 

  slickbizzle

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/11
Posts: 465

3/23/13 11:19:47 AM#43

GW2 sold just over 3 million copies.  WoW has about 9 million something subscribers from the last I'd seen.  Almost all of those are playing MoP.  

 

And yet, they've only sold around 2.7 million copies of MoP?  Kind of makes me wonder where you are getting YOUR facts from.  

 

If they sold 2.7 million copies, and you say that almost all are playing MoP, does that mean WoW has about 3 million subscribers?

 

 

 

  ColumbiaTrue

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 48

3/23/13 11:52:59 AM#44

The temptation to be WoW-like is irresistible to game developers and their investors and management (as agents of the shareholders of the corporation or company).

 

M E M O R A N D U M 

 

TO:  INVESTORS OF MMORPGS (not managers or developers)

RE: MMORPGs

 

Dear Investors:

You have not been able to resist the fatal temptation to try to become like WoW. You will never become like WoW. Have any of you attended acting class during college or your time off? Remember what you were taught - never try to be someone else; it will come off affected, awkward, and inconsistent. The same is true of MMORPGs.

Whether it be fantasy or sci-fi, you investors elect Directors at your annual shareholders' meetings who tell management to be like WoW. Instead, investors, I suggest you elect Directors who will tell management to be "unlike WoW."

Indeed, build a creative game. Use new concepts. Where WoW is weak, be strong. Where WoW has no depth, go as deep as possible. Where WoW is short, go long. Where WoW has PvP, ditch PvP.

 

# # # 

 

"The truth is EA lies." - Youtube User

Sim City. Everquest. Civilization. Dungeon Keeper. Vampire: The Masquerade. These are the games that I love and cherish.

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1993

3/23/13 12:05:24 PM#45
Originally posted by slickbizzle

GW2 sold just over 3 million copies.  WoW has about 9 million something subscribers from the last I'd seen.  Almost all of those are playing MoP.  

 

And yet, they've only sold around 2.7 million copies of MoP?  Kind of makes me wonder where you are getting YOUR facts from.  

 

If they sold 2.7 million copies, and you say that almost all are playing MoP, does that mean WoW has about 3 million subscribers?

 

 

 

Exactly.  Wow does only have 3 million "western" subscriber.  You don't need to buy the expansion in asia.  Expansion is free.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22408

3/23/13 1:24:13 PM#46
Originally posted by Margrave
The problem is they can never be your first experience again. For me that would be UO/EQ. They also can never make you younger. never.

But you can have newer, better experiences.

UO is my second experience on a MMO (Kingdom of Drakkar is my first, if you count MMO precursors, and don't count MUD). Very bad experience.

EQ is second .. played it for a year.

Now, almost any online game i played is a better game than those two.

So yes, these are never my first experience again .. they are better.

  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 8186

3/23/13 2:17:38 PM#47
Originally posted by strangiato2112

No one will ever have WoW's success again.  And nothing should ever be compared to it because its an anamoly.

You are also very wrong about why WoW became popular and has stayed popular.

What kind of nonsense is this?  Games will absolutely experience WOW's success again.  From Pac-Man up through League of Legends there is always a handful of extremely popular hits at any given moment.

The only thing unknown is whether that next hit will be an MMORPG or not.  Although I suppose one could argue the expansions to WOW have been minor versions of those hits (for some expansions at least; Pandaria definitely feels like one as several of my RL friends have become just as re-addicted to WOW as I have recently.)

Games like ESO have a good chance at success.  They just have to avoid bungling it.

You just have to create a game that's genuinely fun to play every session.  With games like SWTOR it's clear why sessions weren't fun: grouping was a complete pain in the ass, and the game had almost zero mob variety so even though classes had some fun rotations, they always basically fought the same exact fights.  Whereas in WOW there's this constant need to optimize against each type of mob: this one stops and does a nasty cleave, so you have to step out of the way; that one puts pain fields on the ground; the next one does a cleave that people need to stack on the tank for; etc.  Creating classes with fun rotations is only half the formula; the other half is having varied mob types.

If you create a game that's fun to play every session, even if you don't get WOW numbers you're going to have players sticking to your game.  And while these games should shoot for the top, it's certainly success if they're able to make sustainable income by keeping the game running with a reasonably sized live team.

  Prepared

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/13
Posts: 95

 
OP  3/23/13 2:57:50 PM#48
Originally posted by acidblood

So then WildStar will finally be the WoW killer?

  • It has a similar art style.
  • It has the same (or better) sense of not being too serious.
  • It appears to have a similarly varied and interesting world (size is still unknown...)
  • It has fluid and intuitive combat; easy to learn, hard to master.
  • It has PvP servers (though no explicit open world objectives), Battlegrounds, Arenas and Warplots to boot
  • It has all sorts of PvE 'layered content' from traditional quests to dynamic events
  • It has awesome player housing, so big plus on WoW there
  • It has UI mods; built from the ground up to support them and make them easy to create
  • It has 20 and 40 man raids
  • It has 5 man instances
  • It has mounts
  • It uses the trinity, but also offers a good range of play styles per class
  • It has, well a bunch of other stuff I'm probably forgetting or don't know about yet
In short, WildStar looks like a new and in most cases much improved version of WoW.. so will it kill WoW? I doubt it, as while I agree with the op (the 'next WoW' must include everything WoW has and more), there are two things any new MMO can not include that WoW has.. the players characters and the timing of it's launch.

The short answer is no, it won't kill WoW because you've already mentioned things that WoW has that it doesn't.  When "everything" is stated, it means literally "everything" with exception of character models and world layout which can't be there because of law.  But everything else can.  It's lacking 10 and 25 man raids from your list, however 20 man raids will probably be popular if the game takes off.  It's lacking no open world objective where a faction can take on another faction city boss while the defending faction can form a defending raid.  That should be allowed even on non-pvp servers.

There is not enough information about game play from the WildStar web site or I would comment further.  I did get a kick out of the "What is WIldStar" youtube video though.  That was pretty cool.  You're right it mentions a lot of the things that are in WoW but it doesn't look like it includes everything.  Some questions I'd ask of the game are:

1. Does it have a macro system?

2. Does it have addon support?

3. Can the User Interface be customized and how far can it go?

4. What is the charge for the game and what kinds of things are charged for in the game?

5. Does doing PvP reward the player with better PvP gear?  And likewise does doing PvE reward the player with better PvE gear?  In other words, are there separate paths to take for two separate types of gear for PvE and PvP?

 

 

  Skooma2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/08
Posts: 694

3/23/13 3:06:07 PM#49

This is not a troll.  This is not some flippant response.  I am a father and while I have an empty nest now,  I can tell you exactly and specifically why WoW still has so much "support" and others do not come close:

 

The game requires so little graphic horsepower that I do not have to upgrade my kids' computer so long as they keep playing a game that can, essentially, be played on an Etch-a-Sketch.  It saves we parents a lot of money to keep them kids hooked on WoW.

Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  korent1991

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1410

3/23/13 3:07:26 PM#50

you're so very wrong about most things in your post...

WoW was such a success because of its most important factor which is: the time when it was released and blizzard already had a huge fan base.

Most of the new mmorpgs actually do offer even MORE than WOW has to offer. Let's face the truth here, wow doesn't have much to offer besides repetitive quests, dungeons and raids with little to none inovative mechanics.

Most probably there won't be another game with such a success because market has evolved, there's alot of games in competition and it's alot harder to win people over for a long term like blizzard managed over the years even tho it has been failing for the past 2 years if we keep china out of the equation (because their paymodels are really weird with all those cyber caffé things).

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Andbrik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/12
Posts: 9

3/23/13 3:09:43 PM#51

While I partially agree with OP about the scope and variety of gameplay being essential to success, I don't think another game can match the success of WoW...yet.  As has been stated, WoW emerged at the most opportune time to gain the interest of a very large audience.  For this to happen again, I honestly think WoW will have to die out naturally or run it's course entiretly until Blizzard shuts it down.

  Scambug

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/05
Posts: 394

3/23/13 3:14:08 PM#52

So what you're suggesting, OP, is that game designers should clone WoW even more than they have been?

I'm not sure that's such a great idea... I certainly wouldn't want to play yet another WoW clone.

Also, why on earth would you put Tera on the same level as EQ and WoW. Both of those games made video gaming history. Tera on the other hand is but a minor blimp on the video gaming timeline that will be swiftly forgotten.

  Cod_Eye

Novice Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1034

3/23/13 3:16:30 PM#53

Blizzard never went out with the expectations of pulling in 10 million players plus, that was an unexpected phenomenon,  the problem we have now is that every developer wants the same success and expects it or just wants a piece of the pie.  No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.

The number of people that play MMO's have never changed dramaticly over the past 5 yrs, what we do have is a saturation of MMO's in various forms, subscription, f2p, browser based, and co-operative hub based.  Whether you call them MMO's or not there are over 700 listed on this site alone, this site only accounts for a small percentage of users that plays any of the games listed.

MMO's with investors will be looking for a bigger target audience than developers like SE and Blizzard as they need to make a faster return on their investment, hence the reason Blizzard and SE have never gone f2p, subscriptions go directly into their own pocket.

  korent1991

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1410

3/23/13 3:20:30 PM#54
Originally posted by Prepared
Originally posted by acidblood

So then WildStar will finally be the WoW killer?

  • It has a similar art style.
  • It has the same (or better) sense of not being too serious.
  • It appears to have a similarly varied and interesting world (size is still unknown...)
  • It has fluid and intuitive combat; easy to learn, hard to master.
  • It has PvP servers (though no explicit open world objectives), Battlegrounds, Arenas and Warplots to boot
  • It has all sorts of PvE 'layered content' from traditional quests to dynamic events
  • It has awesome player housing, so big plus on WoW there
  • It has UI mods; built from the ground up to support them and make them easy to create
  • It has 20 and 40 man raids
  • It has 5 man instances
  • It has mounts
  • It uses the trinity, but also offers a good range of play styles per class
  • It has, well a bunch of other stuff I'm probably forgetting or don't know about yet
In short, WildStar looks like a new and in most cases much improved version of WoW.. so will it kill WoW? I doubt it, as while I agree with the op (the 'next WoW' must include everything WoW has and more), there are two things any new MMO can not include that WoW has.. the players characters and the timing of it's launch.

The short answer is no, it won't kill WoW because you've already mentioned things that WoW has that it doesn't.  When "everything" is stated, it means literally "everything" with exception of character models and world layout which can't be there because of law.  But everything else can.  It's lacking 10 and 25 man raids from your list, however 20 man raids will probably be popular if the game takes off.  It's lacking no open world objective where a faction can take on another faction city boss while the defending faction can form a defending raid.  That should be allowed even on non-pvp servers.

There is not enough information about game play from the WildStar web site or I would comment further.  I did get a kick out of the "What is WIldStar" youtube video though.  That was pretty cool.  You're right it mentions a lot of the things that are in WoW but it doesn't look like it includes everything.  Some questions I'd ask of the game are:

1. Does it have a macro system?

2. Does it have addon support?

3. Can the User Interface be customized and how far can it go?

4. What is the charge for the game and what kinds of things are charged for in the game?

5. Does doing PvP reward the player with better PvP gear?  And likewise does doing PvE reward the player with better PvE gear?  In other words, are there separate paths to take for two separate types of gear for PvE and PvP?

 

 

oh man, macro system is pure garbage and so is addon support... it turns the game into a mindless mash-button-fest, if anything it takes out the fun.

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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  rafalex007

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 242

3/23/13 3:27:52 PM#55

Here is a simple why:

Most people talk about the goood old days (old MMo) stuff like:

you dont know how that felt

those days were aowsome ,..... etc

notice the coloring, but am saying most (some still find it amaizing), i dont blame them they love thire MMos

But and that is a big Butt :

they alway and always feel that every new mmo has to give them the First time MMo feeling, they dont relaize that they will never feel the same never ever.

that is why most MMo dont have the success (am not gona say wow here but instaed Older mmo had), its baiscly the people not the game most of the times

  Scambug

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/05
Posts: 394

3/23/13 3:30:59 PM#56
Originally posted by Cod_Eye

No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.

Never ever ever? Not even 200 years from now when the world population is ten times what it is now and we all have a wifi antenna implanted in our brain?

Also beware double negatives, they have the nasty habit of saying the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1929

3/23/13 3:50:21 PM#57


Originally posted by Cod_Eye
 No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.


On the other hand, I play EVE for almost 10y now, it is still growing, NOTHING like WOW, and I play in a game with more players then WOW ever had on 1 server. ^^


"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Cod_Eye

Novice Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1034

3/23/13 4:03:04 PM#58
Originally posted by Pie_Rat
Originally posted by Cod_Eye

No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.

Never ever ever? Not even 200 years from now when the world population is ten times what it is now and we all have a wifi antenna implanted in our brain?

Also beware double negatives, they have the nasty habit of saying the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

Winter is coming, so no. :P

  Minjie

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/12
Posts: 11

3/23/13 4:09:23 PM#59

WoW is the best mmorpg ever.

Stay salty friends.

  Miblet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 334

3/23/13 4:13:58 PM#60

At WoWs launch I was an EQ veteran, it was my first MMO and I have since been hooked on the genre.

As Phelcher mentioned the OP is just flat out wrong as to why people left EQ.  WoW has never, at any point in it's life, had more content than EQ and certainly not at launch.  EQ was and still is a huge game (granted like WoW though most is usually empty).

WoW became popular because...

1) The internet boom.  Always on, high speed internet was not widely available before and was not by far the norm.  Prior games had been designed around bandwith that people wouldn't tolerate nowadays on a phone.  This changed around the time of WoWs release.

2) Bugs.  As buggy as WoW may have been on it's launch it ran significantly better in general for far less power than many if not all the older games for a far better graphical profile.  It may have done less than the older titles but it it did it with less hassle (better UI, more polish in general).

3) Ease of use.  As people have said since it's inception, WoW is casual friendly and that is by far the largest playerbase for ANY game.  It's requirements are low and easily affordable.  At release it's newer 'next gen' competition opted for high end graphics (which require equally high end systems - EQ2 max graphics at release?  At a playable framerate?  Forget it for the vast majority). 

4) Brand name.  People love brands.  People loved Diablo, Warcraft 1, 2 and 3.  People loved Blizzard as they had a reputation for making good fun games and at least showing some care for their customers.  SOE was seen in a different light (comically how many people now see Blizzard).

5)  Public perception.  Gaming was becoming more mainstream.  It was no longer being seen as the silly habit of kids in basements.

There are more reasons but these are the main ones in my opinion.

As to why it's kept going as the juggernaut it is?  I would guess popularity.  Popularity breeds popularity.

WoW is a great game, I really enjoyed my time there and don't see it going anywhere any time soon, especially since most releases now are trying to copy it for fear of the risks of trying something new in the current market.

The competition needs to come up with something new or aim for a niche market and stop chasing the WoW subscriber figures.  The newer games don't have the luck and shrewd timing of WoWs launch, the popularity or the budget so why they think they can overcome or equal it by doing the same after over a decade of trying and failing is baffling, moreso when there is an army of people looking for something new.  You won't out-WoW WoW.

As people have said before, and as I suspect even Blizzard believe... WoW was an anomoly, a convergence of multiple factors at just the right time to give us what we have and something we may never see again or at least not for a long, long time.

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