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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Why no RAIDS?

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151 posts found
  Betakodo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

3/22/13 5:43:28 PM#121
Having to play with 39 people I don't know for a DKP chance of getting the loot I want? No thanks. I think the 4 man dungeons are superior, I don't have to deal with any huge ego guild leader and I can pretty much form a group any time I want.
  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1899

3/22/13 5:45:14 PM#122

I think the problem is "most" games do give radiers the best loot/items, which is why people are complaining.

 

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/22/13 5:46:49 PM#123
Originally posted by Betakodo
Having to play with 39 people I don't know for a DKP chance of getting the loot I want? No thanks. I think the 4 man dungeons are superior, I don't have to deal with any huge ego guild leader and I can pretty much form a group any time I want.

really didn't want to reply to this post cause 99% chance you're a troll but i'll bite *shrug*

 

you don't use a dkp system when playing with people you don't know. the only way that system works is when you're playing with the same 39 other people.

 

furthermore, WoW has long since abandoned 40 man raids. so try 24 or even better, 9 other people if you wanted to actually be a successful troll instead of just making yourself look like an idiot.

 

don't like a huge ego guild leader? leave and join a better guild.

 

4 man dungeons? What game do you play that has 4 man dungeons? Every game is almost universally 5 man dungeons. You can also pick up huge ego pricks in 5 man dungeons who will bitch and complain about you needing to go faster, heal more, tank more, do more dmg, use right talents, etc.

 

@laokoko, they are complaining about the wrong issue then. When talking about the holocaust, you don't blame the jews for being jewish, you blame hitler. When talking about raiding, you don't blame raids being raids, you blame devs giving all the best gear to raids only.


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  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1899

3/22/13 5:47:48 PM#124
Originally posted by Betakodo
Having to play with 39 people I don't know for a DKP chance of getting the loot I want? No thanks. I think the 4 man dungeons are superior, I don't have to deal with any huge ego guild leader and I can pretty much form a group any time I want.

So you dont' have a problem with raiding.  You have a problem raider get something you can't get.  Ya I get it.

I mean if you don't pvp, should TESO don't have pvp? 

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 86

3/22/13 5:48:26 PM#125
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

[mod edit]

Of course it's regurgitated.  It came from straight from listening to raiders.

Yes you could have raids that don't offer the best gear, but the fact is that there are no games where the best gear isn't locked behind raids.  What raiding game offers raiders worse gear than any other playstyle?  There isn't one.

Yes, scripted dungeons are bad.  I put them as the third worst thing to hit the genre behind themepark arena style pvp.  Master modes in Rift weren't too bad, but you can only do the exact same thing over and over again so long before it becomes boring.

There are still plenty of options for raiders though (Rift, WoW, EQ2, EQ, LotRO).  Not every new game coming out needs to cater to your type of people.

Just because a game  has raids doesn't mean it caters to them. The only ones who think this way are the ones who hate raids. Time to take off the tinfoil hat.

Seems to me the only elitists in this thread are the ones saying don't inlcude raiding. If you don't like to raid, don't do it. Raiders raid, non-raiders do what they want to do. Everyone is happy.

 

The only people who wouldn't be happy are the ones who envy what others have. That problem is behind the keyboard, not a game mechanic.

Best post yet.

 

But yeah, I really am wondering as well, all the people who hate that raiders get the best gear in game...why are you jealous? Why do you need that gear the raiders have? Don't you understand that the gear is needed to beat the next raid content? If you don't raid you don't need the gear. Please explain. It's just ridiculous.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/22/13 6:00:14 PM#126
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by rygard49

What it restricts in certain areas, it opens up in others. I don't recall any previous ES that let me play in the same world with my friends. Actually, if the gripe is that the main quest is single player, I'd argue that's MORE in keeping with TES tradition than not, lol.

Let's be honest, there are always going to be a hundred differences between an MMO and it's single player equivalent. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and until the annointed torchbearers from the Cult of True ES can experience it for themselves, I think they need to throttle back on the fanatic forum rage.

Obviously ES doesn't let you play in the same world as your friends, its a fucking single player game. But guess what, modders found a way that you can do just that. So you were saying?

Did you feel that gusting breeze that ruffled your hair when you read my post? Yeah, that was my point sailing right over your head.

I'll try again, more simply: Different games are different.

Modding aside, TES wasn't designed with multiplayer in mind. Thus it's not traditional. If you're arguing how ESO is different and more restrictive that traditional TES, it's simply idiotic to use non-traditional mods as evidence to back up your logic.

Before you get all bent out of shape and mash out another unnecessarily hostile response, take a step back and try to comprehend what I'm saying.

  Alminie

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/05
Posts: 110

3/22/13 6:24:57 PM#127
a good game doesn't need raids, to get good gear you don't need raids, also for a challenging fight you don't need a raid boss, just a challenging instance with 4 of your friends.
  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1899

3/22/13 6:50:48 PM#128
Originally posted by Alminie
a good game doesn't need raids, to get good gear you don't need raids, also for a challenging fight you don't need a raid boss, just a challenging instance with 4 of your friends.

I'll tell you I don't like GW2 dungeon at all.  And I have doubt TESO dungeon will be any good.

The simple reason is the game is build around character/build diversity.  So I highly doubt there will be any challenging instance.

How do you build a hard dungeon when the build is that diverse?  The only thing you'll get is the characters will be very unbalanced.

Quite ironically beside wow, my favorite 5 man dungeon game is warhammer online.  And that isn't even a pve game. 

The simple reason is when you take away min/maxing, it is hard to balance the dungeon and more importantly the classes.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/22/13 6:56:28 PM#129
Originally posted by Alminie
a good game doesn't need raids, to get good gear you don't need raids, also for a challenging fight you don't need a raid boss, just a challenging instance with 4 of your friends.

The further you shrink group size the dumber the encounter must me. Otherwise you cannot count on having certain abilities. I welcome the return of 40 mans in Wildstar. Gimme another Nefarion, 4 hoursemen, Princess Huhu, Yogg.

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Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Adamai

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 466

3/23/13 4:06:30 AM#130
can you remember doing raids in any of the elder scrolls games ???? no i didnt think so lol

raids would retract from the elder scrollfeel and game play. if anything it should have been a mighty sandbox becauze thats what elderscrolls really is.
  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

3/23/13 4:15:40 AM#131
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

[mod edit]

Of course it's regurgitated.  It came from straight from listening to raiders.

Yes you could have raids that don't offer the best gear, but the fact is that there are no games where the best gear isn't locked behind raids.  What raiding game offers raiders worse gear than any other playstyle?  There isn't one.

Yes, scripted dungeons are bad.  I put them as the third worst thing to hit the genre behind themepark arena style pvp.  Master modes in Rift weren't too bad, but you can only do the exact same thing over and over again so long before it becomes boring.

There are still plenty of options for raiders though (Rift, WoW, EQ2, EQ, LotRO).  Not every new game coming out needs to cater to your type of people.

Just because a game  has raids doesn't mean it caters to them. The only ones who think this way are the ones who hate raids. Time to take off the tinfoil hat.

Seems to me the only elitists in this thread are the ones saying don't inlcude raiding. If you don't like to raid, don't do it. Raiders raid, non-raiders do what they want to do. Everyone is happy.

 

The only people who wouldn't be happy are the ones who envy what others have. That problem is behind the keyboard, not a game mechanic.

Best post yet.

 

But yeah, I really am wondering as well, all the people who hate that raiders get the best gear in game...why are you jealous? Why do you need that gear the raiders have? Don't you understand that the gear is needed to beat the next raid content? If you don't raid you don't need the gear. Please explain. It's just ridiculous.

You both are so full of crap. No wonder you think  his post is 'best evah'. How the hell did you even arrive to conclusion that it is about jealousy? i couldn't give a damn about raiding and what purple shit you run around in. It doesn't effect my gameplay. But what does effect my gameplay is when that is all there is in the end. Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap. And it has been shown many times that only very few percentage of players actually pariticpate in end game raiding.

People here are more concerned about 'raid or die' kind of end game. If devs decide to implement raids they should also make sure that those who don't enjoy raids also have other ways of progressing their characters. But that is something never happens in themepark MMOS. 

Moreover this is ES title. The whole raiding bullshi* doesn't fit into it anywhere. ES games have always been about rich world, exploration, lore and adventure and not about hitting a pinata till it bursts open and drops loot for angry people with sticks.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
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  Betakodo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

3/23/13 5:06:29 AM#132
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Betakodo
Having to play with 39 people I don't know for a DKP chance of getting the loot I want? No thanks. I think the 4 man dungeons are superior, I don't have to deal with any huge ego guild leader and I can pretty much form a group any time I want.

you don't use a dkp system when playing with people you don't know. the only way that system works is when you're playing with the same 39 other people.

 

furthermore, WoW has long since abandoned 40 man raids. so try 24 or even better, 9 other people if you wanted to actually be a successful troll instead of just making yourself look like an idiot.

 

don't like a huge ego guild leader? leave and join a better guild.

 

4 man dungeons? What game do you play that has 4 man dungeons? Every game is almost universally 5 man dungeons. You can also pick up huge ego pricks in 5 man dungeons who will bitch and complain about you needing to go faster, heal more, tank more, do more dmg, use right talents, etc.

Oh man, I'm not up to date with the MMO raid numbers so a man named Sephiroth thinks I've made a fool of myself! The shame!

Anyways, I was talking about DKP in relation to being in a guild. How many people want the raid goods and just join any guild that's open? The problem with raids are you are stuck trying to find a guild that actually has space and on top of that, you don't wanna leave because you'll lose your DKP. Finding a "Good" guild is part luck, it's not easy getting the stars aligned so that you get a decent leader, an active guild, people who aren't _____, etc.

With 4 man dungeons, or even 5, you're not stuck hoping to find a good guild. The number's small enough to be able to find a pick up a group and not be gimped because you didn't become a slave to a guild. You can weed out the douches with a simple blacklist/block and friends list the nice players.

  Arthasm

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 664

3/23/13 5:43:24 AM#133
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

You both are so full of crap. No wonder you think  his post is 'best evah'. How the hell did you even arrive to conclusion that it is about jealousy? i couldn't give a damn about raiding and what purple shit you run around in. It doesn't effect my gameplay. But what does effect my gameplay is when that is all there is in the end. Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap. And it has been shown many times that only very few percentage of players actually pariticpate in end game raiding.

People here are more concerned about 'raid or die' kind of end game. If devs decide to implement raids they should also make sure that those who don't enjoy raids also have other ways of progressing their characters. But that is something never happens in themepark MMOS. 

Moreover this is ES title. The whole raiding bullshi* doesn't fit into it anywhere. ES games have always been about rich world, exploration, lore and adventure and not about hitting a pinata till it bursts open and drops loot for angry people with sticks.

If you don't give a damn about raids, why you bother? You will have different character progression, you will get best gear from crafting. "Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap." - that means people done all content and alternatives and progressed their character to maximum. You're either join raids or wait for new expansion/content. For raideres in TESO without raids that means - this game sux, content done in 2 months, kthxbai.

  MyTabbycat

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 301

3/23/13 5:48:08 AM#134

Here is your answer:

QUOTE:

When asked about his vision for raids and PvE endgame in ESO he explained the controversial IGN quote by recognizing that World of Warcraft is the best in the business at constructing competitive progression raiding. ZeniMax doesn’t want to become embroiled in a struggle to out-do WoW at it’s own game, and would rather develop it’s own brand of large group PvE which fits the Elder Scrolls context. Most WoW-style raids involve 20+ players hacking away gleefully at the ankles of a much larger foe, when Matt Firor claimed “That’s not Elder Scrolls” it was this type of confrontation in particular to which he was referring.  The developers at ZeniMax would rather pit a group of players against a much larger force of threatening NPCs to emphasize that heroic feel which is latent throughout the Elder Scrolls series. While nothing explicit is confirmed, it does sound like adventure zones are definitely penciled in as post-launch content. Hopefully there is at least one such epic endgame PvE encounter in the original launch version of the game, but if not, I hope we can look forward to adventure zones shortly after launch as a good compromise for  players which crave large group PvE endgame. We should have a better opportunity to talk to Matt further tomorrow afternoon, so I’m hopeful that we can get more juicy details then!

  Arthasm

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 664

3/23/13 6:06:53 AM#135
Good. Like Guild Wars 2. I hope we will need to use and skill number 2 beside spamming 1, when we fight against world PVE bosses.
  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

3/23/13 6:28:46 AM#136
Originally posted by Arthasm
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

You both are so full of crap. No wonder you think  his post is 'best evah'. How the hell did you even arrive to conclusion that it is about jealousy? i couldn't give a damn about raiding and what purple shit you run around in. It doesn't effect my gameplay. But what does effect my gameplay is when that is all there is in the end. Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap. And it has been shown many times that only very few percentage of players actually pariticpate in end game raiding.

People here are more concerned about 'raid or die' kind of end game. If devs decide to implement raids they should also make sure that those who don't enjoy raids also have other ways of progressing their characters. But that is something never happens in themepark MMOS. 

Moreover this is ES title. The whole raiding bullshi* doesn't fit into it anywhere. ES games have always been about rich world, exploration, lore and adventure and not about hitting a pinata till it bursts open and drops loot for angry people with sticks.

If you don't give a damn about raids, why you bother? You will have different character progression, you will get best gear from crafting. "Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap." - that means people done all content and alternatives and progressed their character to maximum. You're either join raids or wait for new expansion/content. For raideres in TESO without raids that means - this game sux, content done in 2 months, kthxbai.

Don't quote me again if you don't even bother to read what i said. I clealry mentioned that i don't give a damn about the raid but i do care when that is all there is. Raiders are not special snowflake that entire end game has to be weaved around them. I suggest get over yourself.

 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Arthasm

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 664

3/23/13 8:29:27 AM#137
Fine. We get our piece of cake, you get your piece of cake. Everyone happy. Don't like raids, don't do them. There will be thousand other options for progress. For us who like challenge, give raids. For those who want best gear without hours of doing challenge boss encounters - you have crafting. I don't mind if people would have best gear without single skill used or kill, but I like to have something that requires skills, not bloody farming mats to have best gear.
  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

3/23/13 8:32:13 AM#138

From where you are getting there will be thousand other options for end game non raiders? and by challenge if you mean hitting on a boss with  couple of million HP till it dies yes sure it is chellenging.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Tarkus-Black

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 7

3/23/13 8:37:25 AM#139

IGN miss reported and misinterpreted Matt Firor's Comments, Raids are in. Wait for more info coming throughout PAXeast.

RAIDS ARE IN. Dont have to believe me you'll see soon enough.

16-20 man content. 

  scooter256

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/23/04
Posts: 5

3/23/13 11:25:18 AM#140

Firor goes on to describe the game as potentially “the most socially connected MMO game ever.” The Elder Scrolls Online will offer the standard fare of raids and instanced dungeons (available in both group and heroic difficulty levels) but in addition ZeniMax is bringing back the tradition of public dungeons which haven’t been seen in an MMO for several years. These public dungeons will be shared content with no instancing.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/elder-scrolls-online/previews/e3-2012

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