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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Beating the Zerg out of game design.

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58 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/22/13 6:47:13 PM#41
Originally posted by coretex666

Ok hold on a second.

Are we talking about sci-fi first person shooters or medieval fantasy MMORPG.

Did you read my post till the end? I used ancient romans vs barbarians as an example. What does it have to do with with planes and guided missiles.

 

Both examples are clearly the same thing: military tech/organization advantage.  It's been the same throughout warfare.

The only reason his example is flimsy is that we probably also had the 'zerg' force (numerical superiority).

Although I think the original comment totally downplays the significant advantage to numerical superiority...

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/22/13 6:53:52 PM#42

Why do you want to de-zerg a game?  Is it not, ultimately, the basis of warfare: zerg with various force multipliers?

As for mechanics that punish large numbers  ... AOE, disease, chain lightning, finite food/resources, wages, bottlenecks, attacking command-and-control and simple denial-of-victory by defenders who refuse to leave a defendable strongpoint.

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

3/22/13 6:54:21 PM#43

Zerging tends to occur because the effort:reward ratio of trying to play tactically just isn't worth it, and most people can't be bothered with the hassle of trying to organise so many players.

The solution to zerging isn't to restrict it in any way. The solution is to make teamwork and tactical play much more rewarding, to the point that a well coordinated group will always wipe out a zerg.

GW2 was starting to move in the right direction with their combo system but they chickened out and made the combos pathetically weak and often not worth the hassle. We need to see some kind of spellweaving system that allows casters to combine their attacks, and a combo system that allows melee to open targets up to attacks by their allies.

A return of damage types/weaknesses (slashing, piercing, crushing, elemental, etc.) and class interdependency would also solve a lot of the problems.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/22/13 7:08:04 PM#44
Originally posted by maplestone

Why do you want to de-zerg a game?  Is it not, ultimately, the basis of warfare: zerg with various force multipliers?

As for mechanics that punish large numbers  ... AOE, disease, chain lightning, finite food/resources, wages, bottlenecks, attacking command-and-control and simple denial-of-victory by defenders who refuse to leave a defendable strongpoint.

Because games are about fun.

20 people beating up 5 people isn't really fun for either side.  Predetermined outcomes means your decisions don't matter, and if decisions don't matter, why play the game?

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1820

"I shall take your position into consideration"

3/22/13 7:10:41 PM#45

I said make the games realistic. This interpretation was maybe too absolute.

What I meant was I would look for certain strategic and tactical elements which were applied in real historical battles and try to figure out their potential implementation in battles in MMOs.

The OP mentioned friendly fire which definitely is one of the potential solutions inspired by reality. I am not judging whether it is an appropriate one or not.

I did not necessarily refer to technological advantage. I would not call it a cause or favorable solution to zerging.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

3/22/13 7:22:02 PM#46
Originally posted by coretex666

I said make the games realistic. This interpretation was maybe too absolute.

What I meant was I would look for certain strategic and tactical elements which were applied in real historical battles and try to figure out their potential implementation in battles in MMOs.

The OP mentioned friendly fire which definitely is one of the potential solutions inspired by reality. I am not judging whether it is an appropriate one or not.

I did not necessarily refer to technological advantage. I would not call it a cause or favorable solution to zerging.

Well the biggest realistic deterrent to zerging is fear of death... IRL a war is conducted with the aim to win whilst minimising casualties. In MMOs winning is all that matters because any that die will respawn eventually with minimum penalty. The return of some kind of harsh death penalty would make players think twice about charging in blindly all the time...

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 297

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/22/13 7:26:10 PM#47
Realistic is fine coretex, don't waiver, realistic and real are not the same thing, in realistic combat, a 3 mages torching 20 foes because the cluster together makes sense, in real combat, mages arn't present...

Nonsensical talk of technological advantages and resource wars have no bearing on a game which intelligently avoids realistic situations which take away from the gameplay. It's just another troll response trying to misinterpret the discussion for discourse. Focus on dialogue with constructive posters, for me and you.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1820

"I shall take your position into consideration"

3/22/13 8:15:09 PM#48
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
Realistic is fine coretex, don't waiver, realistic and real are not the same thing, in realistic combat, a 3 mages torching 20 foes because the cluster together makes sense, in real combat, mages arn't present...

Nonsensical talk of technological advantages and resource wars have no bearing on a game which intelligently avoids realistic situations which take away from the gameplay. It's just another troll response trying to misinterpret the discussion for discourse. Focus on dialogue with constructive posters, for me and you.

The thing is that when I have a feeling that someone responds in such a way that it seems that they did not completely understand the idea I was trying to communicate, I realize that the problem may be on my side as I probably did not express my thoughts clearly enough.

I usually try to specify or explain myself better as I do not like being misunderstood.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 297

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/22/13 8:21:21 PM#49
It's kind of you to break out the crayon, but this is the ultimate dungeon, the interwebs, and its burdened with trolls galore. It wasn't your language that was hard to understand, it was his love for disapproval that imagined some nonsensical answer. It's best not to debate it at all, but if you do, do it for those who might be misled by BS.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/23/13 1:06:45 AM#50
Originally posted by Axehilt

20 people beating up 5 people isn't really fun for either side.

I'm not going to argue with this, just note that this is basically the setup of the final encounter of every Hollywood movie.  I find it interesting that there is such a disconnect between people wanting to watch the Spartans and people wanting to play the Spartans.
  Cochran1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 460

"Fish can't sit down cause they got no laps!!"

3/23/13 1:11:14 AM#51
Planetside 2 has friendly fire you can actually be penalized for harassment if you pk your allies too much. I seems to quell people from line of sighting each other too much, but it hasn't stopped zerging.
vizzledrix Xfire Miniprofile
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5542

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/23/13 4:44:03 AM#52
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Axehilt

20 people beating up 5 people isn't really fun for either side.

I'm not going to argue with this, just note that this is basically the setup of the final encounter of every Hollywood movie.  I find it interesting that there is such a disconnect between people wanting to watch the Spartans and people wanting to play the Spartans.

People who "want to play the Spartan" are naive and generally come nowhere close to being one.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  dlld

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/31/08
Posts: 516

3/23/13 6:51:23 AM#53

I don't think most people dislike "zerging" in and of itself, that is being a part of a large group, many people clamor for bringing 40 man raids back in wow, to many that would be enough for a zerg.

The problem with so called zerging is that most games handle it very poorly, IE in GW2 massive lag, barely able to see most people/mobs, events not scaling enough taking any challange out of the fight.

Those are the problems honestly, not having lots of people doing something together in an MASSIVELY multiplayer online game, it should be what we signed up for, no?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/23/13 7:04:56 AM#54
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Axehilt

20 people beating up 5 people isn't really fun for either side.

I'm not going to argue with this, just note that this is basically the setup of the final encounter of every Hollywood movie.  I find it interesting that there is such a disconnect between people wanting to watch the Spartans and people wanting to play the Spartans.

Surprise!  Interactive and non-interactive entertainment are different!

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5571

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/23/13 7:06:40 AM#55
Originally posted by Prankster

I propose that the only way to end Zerg warfare is to enable friendly fire.

Please discuss.

friendly fire works great on shooters but It is very ineffective in mmos. If my Flames of Hell AoE spell wipes everyone including my friends (and possibly myself if im in range), then my Healing Rain should also heal the enemies that are in the area of effect to make the mechanic more credible...... and less fun. So no, friendly fire in doesnt work, at least in mmos. Shooters can keep that feature for themselves.

 

It can be hard to reduce zerging in game. An effective way to do it is by not allowing massive fights...... and that kills the purpose of massive online pvp....so..... zerg seems to be here to stay.

 

Maybe adding more incestives and features to combat them in game and be rewarded for it could work instead of trying to remove it and end up with co-op pvp in a huge map. For example, setting traps that enemy players cant see unless a specific class uses a specific perk that gives a slight chance to detect traps so they can be useful in a zerg while if they fail the trap beats the zerg. But certain traps would require terraforming to make huge wholes on the ground with stakes at the bottom and cover them and things like that. Insta-kill traps. :p

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

3/23/13 7:07:22 AM#56

In my mind the most effective way of countering zergs from the developer side, while still allowing it. is to limit the rewards for success.

If there are less people to divide the PvP points or loot drops from boss mobs (in case of PvE zerging) then at least some will try to do the same task with less people to get the greater reward.

You would still have zergs, simply because it atleast gives a chance of a reward even if you are bad, but I think that is ok.

Especially if there is even the slightest chance for a smaller zerg or a few well organized groups to sometimes beat a zerg.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5571

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/23/13 7:19:06 AM#57
Originally posted by WW4BW

(in case of PvE zerging) then at least some will try to do the same task with less people to get the greater reward.

mmos have been doing this for a while with dungeons. Limiting them to small groups of 4-5 people which can be boring already. At least in PvE i do prefer huge zergs as long as its still very hard and rewarding. For Example, instead of a zerg dealing with 1 huge boss, why not add various huge bosses in the same fight, each with its own unique combat strategy and smart AI that help each other. Im sure the PvE zerg can handle the pressure while at the same time making the game more fun.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1822

3/23/13 7:25:41 AM#58

Don't know what this topic is really about, but..

Everquest has PVE zerg and non-zerg tactics.

Everquest has reverse zerg systems I guess, although they have been nerfed a bit.

EQ mob zerg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pMf9vldhn4

People might think this takes no skill, but it takes quite a bit of skill to judge just how many mobs you can handle and where your limits are.

I think any system is great as long as it takes tactics and skill to do, but many current action games take no skill and I frankly hate them.

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