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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Spells and ranged damage

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32 posts found
  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

3/21/13 5:06:47 AM#21

I think, the all or nothing interrupt is kind of outdated. Better way would be to set back the casting time by 50% or something like that. If the cast is not 50% prepared when the interrupt hits, the cast is cancelled. This should be able to tweak by abilities (interrupt resistance). Projectiles should be blockable. Instant non projectiles should have low damage or high recast timer.

Casters should have the feeling of power while other classes should not feel that casters are op.

Casters from walls should be able to hit the siege armies. Battlements which hinder the casters to hit the attackers are annoying. The attackers should be able to use covers against those casters, like big shields which can break under heavy fire from mentioned casters.

 

Just some thoughts from me.

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  Vargur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 142

 
OP  3/21/13 5:07:11 AM#22
Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/21/13 9:10:29 AM#23
Originally posted by Vargur
Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

ToA was exactly the problem lol. It added +stat caps, thus xx more Dex, and 10% casting speed ( remember when it was 25% lOLol ).

In the daoc interupt system, 10% casting speed was far more powerful / game changing then 10% melee speed... Turned the game into more caster focused, not saying melee couldn't compete because they did and we ran many melee setups post ToA, but it was only because of the hard intertupt system that melee/casters were balanced.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Vargur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 142

 
OP  3/21/13 10:07:30 AM#24
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Originally posted by Vargur
Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

ToA was exactly the problem lol. It added +stat caps, thus xx more Dex, and 10% casting speed ( remember when it was 25% lOLol ).

In the daoc interupt system, 10% casting speed was far more powerful / game changing then 10% melee speed... Turned the game into more caster focused, not saying melee couldn't compete because they did and we ran many melee setups post ToA, but it was only because of the hard intertupt system that melee/casters were balanced.

10% casting speed shouldn't have made as much of a difference as buffs, but certainly didn't help the situation. 25% was just rediculous, and thankfully reduced. Also, melee had a hard cap on how quick one could swing (think it was 1.5 seconds), so if you used quick weapons you might gain nothing from the ToA bonuses. There was for some reason no hard cap on casting speed which led to the crazy casting speeds.

 

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/21/13 10:42:52 AM#25

Exactly, but my point is buffs wern't the biggest factor after ToA, buffs got 25% better, but I believe you still could get more dex from over cap then you got from the better buffs ( not sure ), but better buffs / stat caps / 10% cast speed = casters casting too fast.

Game was best just before ToA :( miss it so much :(

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

3/21/13 10:44:35 AM#26
Originally posted by Vargur
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Originally posted by Vargur
Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

ToA was exactly the problem lol. It added +stat caps, thus xx more Dex, and 10% casting speed ( remember when it was 25% lOLol ).

In the daoc interupt system, 10% casting speed was far more powerful / game changing then 10% melee speed... Turned the game into more caster focused, not saying melee couldn't compete because they did and we ran many melee setups post ToA, but it was only because of the hard intertupt system that melee/casters were balanced.

10% casting speed shouldn't have made as much of a difference as buffs, but certainly didn't help the situation. 25% was just rediculous, and thankfully reduced. Also, melee had a hard cap on how quick one could swing (think it was 1.5 seconds), so if you used quick weapons you might gain nothing from the ToA bonuses. There was for some reason no hard cap on casting speed which led to the crazy casting speeds.

 

Sure you did...you got the slowest weapon you could that would cap at 1.5 second and increase your damage

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

3/21/13 11:33:09 AM#27
Originally posted by MightyPit

I think, the all or nothing interrupt is kind of outdated. Better way would be to set back the casting time by 50% or something like that. If the cast is not 50% prepared when the interrupt hits, the cast is cancelled. This should be able to tweak by abilities (interrupt resistance). Projectiles should be blockable. Instant non projectiles should have low damage or high recast timer.

Casters should have the feeling of power while other classes should not feel that casters are op.

 

I disagree, Hard Interupts is probably one of my favorite things about DaoC. I've been on both sides. My main an rr11 eld is constantly being interupted but if I keep to the back lines I can avoid most of it and do some damage. On the flip side my druid (rr9) was always putting the pet on the enemy healers making it very annoying for them because they couldn't effectively heal until that pet was cleared off of them.

Also hard interupts were countered by MoC (10 seconds immune to interupts) and quick cast (1 non-interuptable spell) This made it more of a tactical thing. 

 

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Arnfiarnunn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 61

3/21/13 11:49:18 AM#28
Originally posted by Vargur

I think most people agree that caster damage got out of hand post-ToA. Especially hib-casters with their stun-nuke capabilities became nasty to say the least. I want casters to play a part in this game, but I don't want them to become the gods they grew into. When my brother's RR5 Runemaster two-shotted a RR11 enemy caster in less than 3 seconds I actually felt sorry for the other guy (only for a few seconds before I remembered how many people he had to have killed to reach that rank).

The question is how to make casters fun and playable without making them gods. I have been thinking about a system where a caster can begin casting a base spell and add features for as long as he dares. This would have to be done in combat, not pre-fight like the warlock. The base spell would be ready to cast pretty quick but does little damage, but if the caster is left alone he can add more damage to the spell before releasing it. Alternatively, a snare/mes/stun spell would have a base with one target and short duration (acting mmore like than an interupt than a traditional CC) and additional features like longer duration and/or larger area-of-effect can be added.

I think such a system can make caster powerful if they are given time to concoct their nastiness, but also give them the option of playing more of an interupt game with the enemy.

Something similar could be done with archers where they can hit harder if given the time to aim properly (not crit shots from stealth included).

 

Another interesting feature could be to add a archery spell system similar to Mount and Blade's system. There is no spell in that game, but archery works that you have to aim manually (not tab-targeting or click to target) and you skill determines how close to the crosshairs the arrow flies. Spells could work in a similar fashion. The FPS system could pose a problem for people playing in third-person-view, but there might be ways around that?

To make caster balance, you must choose carefuly the cc you give to them. The hard control like the mezz, stun shouldn't be in the hands of a range dps. (we all remember hib-casters)

Dps caster (and particularly Direct Damage casters), should only have access to single root, mute, nearsight. And that's far enough to do great combos!

Give mezz to support class, that what they are suppose to do.

 

In another side it would be since to have a first person view on range character. It makes you really vulnerable if you don't pay attention and just nuke.

Darkfall did it right.

 

About darkfall, they added the same aiming system that M&B. You really have to aim your arrows (it uses physics)

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/21/13 11:52:26 AM#29

They better not force FPS view, that would be a deal breaker I think for me.

Everygame i've played  its always an option for you if you like that / want that challenge / annoyance ;)

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  hpique

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/12
Posts: 4

3/21/13 10:21:22 PM#30
This sounds good in theory, but I really don't think it would work. I run with about an 11 man group if everyone is on. We coordinate classes to take advatages of stuff like this in games to give our group an edge over larger groups. In Warhammer for example we had two or three bright wizards a few healers to heal them so they could bomb everything, a few tanks to help protect us and a healer for them. Also a few other classes for just support and more dps. We could take on gigantic amounts of people useing this setup. I just don't think a system would actually work and be balanced.
  zekuel

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/13
Posts: 39

3/22/13 2:04:32 PM#31
I think hard interupts should be in game along with quickcast. I would also like to see being able to move while casting in this game but with casting speed and movement penalties. If you are moving and casting at the same time your movement speed and cast time is reduced/increased by 25-50%. You could start a cast while moving t and then stop to pick up more casting speed, but also you could run after target casting but be slowed down at the same time. Targets can still move out of rage quicker than a caster could keep up and casters would have lower overall dps. Also if we are concerned about +% casting speed taking over we could just have a higher base casting speed. Not only did % casting speed help alot with Toa they also reduced alot of base casting speeds to balance out more from what 1 realm had to the other (just don't do this). Pure casters should have high dps because pure tanks do, it is the hybrid classes that suffered the most as far as total dps (as they should because they are utility/healing classes)
  Vargur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 142

 
OP  3/24/13 8:17:19 PM#32
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Exactly, but my point is buffs wern't the biggest factor after ToA, buffs got 25% better, but I believe you still could get more dex from over cap then you got from the better buffs ( not sure ), but better buffs / stat caps / 10% cast speed = casters casting too fast.

Game was best just before ToA :( miss it so much :(

I think what made the problem apparent was the departure of players after ToA, so buffbots became easily obtainable for many.

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