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General Discussion  » There are no raids... can you live with that?

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549 posts found
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3712

 
OP  3/22/13 12:02:00 PM#141
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by doodphace

Just want to point out, the only themepark since WoW to release with a sub, and keep enough subscribers to not warrent going FTP (Rift), has ample endgame/raids....me thinks there is some corralation with having a veriaty of endgame content, and keeping playiers...

 

LOL this. Even if you dont want to raid its good for the game.

The trick is getting developers to do it without alienating the rest of the player base by placing end game progression solely through raiding.  What's the point of even having other end game content if the only post-level progression takes place in raids?  We all love to see new content, but playing an RPG means that the progression of your Avatar is a paramount aspect required for leveling and post-leveling content.

Ya last thing I want is a treadmill. Gear should be equal.

  Saerain

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/27/06
Posts: 946

3/22/13 12:02:17 PM#142

Raiding represents a massive part of what I've hated about the last decade or so of MMOs. I'm excited by their absence.

I don't begrudge people who love raiding. I understand what the appeal is, I just don't share it.

Favorites: EVE, VG, LotRO | Playing: None | Anticipating: SC, ED, TD, EQN, CU

  doodphace

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1719

3/22/13 12:04:04 PM#143
Originally posted by Rthuth434
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by doodphace

Just want to point out, the only themepark since WoW to release with a sub, and keep enough subscribers to not warrent going FTP (Rift), has ample endgame/raids....me thinks there is some corralation with having a veriaty of endgame content, and keeping playiers...

 

LOL this. Even if you dont want to raid its good for the game.

haha RIFT:

 

- 100 servers down to 8 servers in 10 months

- outspoken anti cash shop/anti F2P exec hits the road(like he left EQ2 before that conversion)

- added cash shop even though they were chest poundingly against such things, F2P in asia to "save sliding player numbers" even though they were firebreathing preachers of the true red blooded sub model

-  moving on from RIFT with AA and several f2p/b2p titles coming up, fired bunch of guys and all indications point to SL being the only expansion for a looooong time.

- never give specifics on how the game did, but slash the expansion's price after two weeks on market.

Compared to all other themparks that released without raids, do you not think that its doing better from a subscription standpoint, even givin everything you pointed out??

  Sideras

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/04
Posts: 236

3/22/13 12:04:27 PM#144
I've never played a single raid in my life that I truly enjoyed so yes I can live without it. I'd prefer not having to find a massive band of  angry social misfits in order to enjoy the game thankyouverymuch.
  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

3/22/13 12:04:28 PM#145
I'm mostly interested in the AvA and crafting. I chose Yes, i can live without it because raiding really holds nothing interesting for me, I know there is a small percentage of mmo players who live to do them, but not me.
  monochrome19

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/13
Posts: 330

3/22/13 12:14:36 PM#146

Never liked or saw the point of raids. Never have, never will.

I think not having raids is the best thing any mmo can do.

Whenever I have attempted to raid I've ALWAYS fallen asleep at my computer.

  evilized

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 565

3/22/13 12:17:22 PM#147

put in a darkness falls dungeon or two.

 

/game

/thread

/life

/internets

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6705

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

3/22/13 12:17:44 PM#148
Incomplete poll. I can live without raids, granted that it has some other fun and interesting end-game activity such as meaningful conquest based PvP or soft level cap. But I cant live with a game that has barely any proper end-game (such as GW 2).
  danwest58

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 597

3/22/13 12:18:23 PM#149
Originally posted by Rthuth434
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by doodphace

Just want to point out, the only themepark since WoW to release with a sub, and keep enough subscribers to not warrent going FTP (Rift), has ample endgame/raids....me thinks there is some corralation with having a veriaty of endgame content, and keeping playiers...

 

LOL this. Even if you dont want to raid its good for the game.

haha RIFT:

 

- 100 servers down to 8 servers in 10 months

- outspoken anti cash shop/anti F2P exec hits the road(like he left EQ2 before that conversion)

- added cash shop even though they were chest poundingly against such things, F2P in asia to "save sliding player numbers" even though they were firebreathing preachers of the true red blooded sub model

-  moving on from RIFT with AA and several f2p/b2p titles coming up, fired bunch of guys and all indications point to SL being the only expansion for a looooong time.

- never give specifics on how the game did, but slash the expansion's price after two weeks on market.

 

SL had issues because the work required just so one can raid.  People would grind quest to get gear to run normal instances.  Then grind normal instances to do expert instances.  Then grind Experts to get into raids.  I played SL, ran a guild full of casual players all of which raided in WOW and Rift before.  2 out of the 30 of us wanted to do the tredmill.

 

I went back to SWTOR and I love the operations here because they are small and take little effort to get going.  So you can say all the negative things you want about Raiding.  Its not the problem.  The problem is the tredmill one has to get on to get into raid or to do for raiding.  Yes they need a carrot on the stick and should progress their toons.  But Like WoW and Rift, the amount of time spent just to raid is too great.  If raiding was looked at like PVP as a nother avenue of progression then it wouldn't be a big deal.

  Sagorn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/13
Posts: 18

3/22/13 12:20:15 PM#150

I used to raid.. a lot, but I don't raid at all now. It's not about the time or the effort but dealing with the attitudes and drama that comes with 99% of every single guild out there. Sure, you can do some sort of random groupage, but you are going to run into the same a-holes time and time again.

 

As a pve player, the problem isn't having raids for end-game, it's having *something* for end game. There is a lot more that you can do that doesn't require raiding, or grouping at all. I don't understand why someone hasn't figured out that there are easier things to add to give players something to do at max level than raids. Add a very deep alternate ability system (a la EQ) to give players the ability to get *better* as they play more. Add a crafting system that actually takes some sort of effort to get good at and max out. Add a housing system that actually gives people something to work on, such as upgrading the actual starter hut to a castle over time, as well as decorating. While this might not interst a lot of people, it sure gives you something more interesting to do than a gear grind every few months when a patch comes out with some new raid/dungeon.

 

--Sagorn

  danwest58

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 597

3/22/13 12:34:53 PM#151
Originally posted by Sagorn

I used to raid.. a lot, but I don't raid at all now. It's not about the time or the effort but dealing with the attitudes and drama that comes with 99% of every single guild out there. Sure, you can do some sort of random groupage, but you are going to run into the same a-holes time and time again.

 

As a pve player, the problem isn't having raids for end-game, it's having *something* for end game. There is a lot more that you can do that doesn't require raiding, or grouping at all. I don't understand why someone hasn't figured out that there are easier things to add to give players something to do at max level than raids. Add a very deep alternate ability system (a la EQ) to give players the ability to get *better* as they play more. Add a crafting system that actually takes some sort of effort to get good at and max out. Add a housing system that actually gives people something to work on, such as upgrading the actual starter hut to a castle over time, as well as decorating. While this might not interst a lot of people, it sure gives you something more interesting to do than a gear grind every few months when a patch comes out with some new raid/dungeon.

 

--Sagorn

 

Sargorn,

Honestly If you think 99% of raiding guilds have drama thats because you joined mostly bad guilds or you equate having a pug person who does not want to listen to loot rules and wants his 6th piece of gear from that raid over someone who has got nothing.   Yes Larger raids 20+ will have more drama than they are worth.  If you get a good tigh nit group of 8 to 11 raiders you are very unlikely to see any drama.  Why?  Simple guilds end up much like my raiding guild in SWTOR we had 11 people all on the same page we rotated and almost never needed ro recruit for our group.  No one bitched at one another everyone enjoyed yacking at one another the only BS we had was on SOA hard mode because before he was fixed everytime he got down to 15% health he despawned.  Everytime without fail.  Thats the only DRAMA we had because we hated Bioware for a buggy boss.  Not because Loot, or who pissed off who or inter personal stuff.  Small tigh nit groups rarely have drama and need to massively recruit.

 

As for you saying that its wrong for MMOs to force group content.  I will agree to disagree with you.  Take UO for example, if you don't instance out areas where you have strong Monsters people want to kill they will get flooded and people will hate having to fight for 1 mob.  Take the Shadow Wyrm room for example.  I with 2 other friends ran that place, however if others came in they get pissed because we owned the spawn.  Sometimes you would see a dozen people trying to control it however us 3 ran the place.  So you recate instances, an instance will take resources on a phsyical server and a database.  So you make instances GROUP content.  Also the point of an MMO is to be social, make friends and play with them.  They are not Lobby Games, and only became Lobby games because there are now too many MMOs and few people willing to play them.   Now I will say I would like a game where SMALL group of friends and work together and progress.  I would love to run a Shadow wyrm spawn again with a few friends and have a good time.  Do we need 40 man raids, no.  Can we do with 8 man raids.  Yea much better and much tigher nit communities will be made from that.

 

  stori11

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/12
Posts: 30

3/22/13 12:48:02 PM#152
Originally posted by Celcius
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by stori11
Adding raids to this perticular mmo would be a mistake on their part seeing how they might loose a few players by making it mroe of a co-op game than mmo, but they would loose alot more players and face a massive backlash from TES fans if they made it wow-like mmo. Not that there is anything wrong with wow, I played it myself and enjoyed it, I hope my point is easy to understand.

You know this is an MMORPG right? And you cant do the main story co-op? You're phased by yourself when doing the main story questline.

 

Do you know what MMO means?

Really?  I didn't know that.  Wow, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard... make a TES multiplayer game, then make the main storyline single player.  Brilliant.  If that's true, I'm almost offended at how utterly fucking stupid it is.

Don't believe everything in this thread. Unless this guy can prove that you can't do the main story co-op I would take that comment with a grain of salt. 

Who said anything about a phased single player main story? First of all, thats bullshit, the devs never said anything like that, second , my point was that making this game more of a co-op game than wow-style mmo will work better for it. I do not mean co-op as in 4 players alone in the world, but co-op as in 4-5 players in a dungeon.

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2091

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

3/22/13 12:51:28 PM#153

I know lots of people who hate raids but do them anyway simply because it's the way to get gear in other MMOs. Personally I don't mind the occasional raid, but they're not particularly important to me.

"Tiny clown, he got wet. I was talking to a psychic and I can't sleep in the ozone. There are too many different peanuts, looking sad.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/22/13 1:00:27 PM#154

"How do you tell every player that they’re the saviour of the world in an MMO? It’s a sticky question that many MMOs face, and that few deal with especially well. Tom sat down with game director Matt Firor to find out how Zenimax approach the problem in The Elder Scrolls Online.

 

“The way we do that in Elder Scrolls Online is there are parts of the game that you just do solo and you just do in a story instance. So the main backbone story of the game, which is your interaction with Molag Bal, one of the Daedric princes, you’re the hero in that story, so you experience that only yourself.”

It’s a familiar technique we’ve seen before in Star Wars: The Old Republic, LoTRO and many other MMOs that do their storytelling in carefully choreographed instances."

 

Does that answer it yet? Or do I need to keep providing quotes from the developers themselves?

  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 589

3/22/13 1:01:01 PM#155
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by Rthuth434
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by doodphace

Just want to point out, the only themepark since WoW to release with a sub, and keep enough subscribers to not warrent going FTP (Rift), has ample endgame/raids....me thinks there is some corralation with having a veriaty of endgame content, and keeping playiers...

 

LOL this. Even if you dont want to raid its good for the game.

haha RIFT:

 

- 100 servers down to 8 servers in 10 months

- outspoken anti cash shop/anti F2P exec hits the road(like he left EQ2 before that conversion)

- added cash shop even though they were chest poundingly against such things, F2P in asia to "save sliding player numbers" even though they were firebreathing preachers of the true red blooded sub model

-  moving on from RIFT with AA and several f2p/b2p titles coming up, fired bunch of guys and all indications point to SL being the only expansion for a looooong time.

- never give specifics on how the game did, but slash the expansion's price after two weeks on market.

Compared to all other themparks that released without raids, do you not think that its doing better from a subscription standpoint, even givin everything you pointed out??

And what are the other themeparks that release without raids that did worst than Rift? I'm curious, because I only know GW2 doesn't have raids and that game is doing better than Rift going by the server numbers and Anet saying it have been growing in term of population recently.

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

3/22/13 1:04:01 PM#156
Although I'm a huge GW2 fan, I do find myself lamenting the lack of challenging group content (in the form of raids of whatever.)  I'm definitely a fan of progressing through hard content with a group and the triumphant feeling of teamwork that comes with it.  Do I think every game needs it though?  No.  Each game needs to have its own identity. 
  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/22/13 1:04:27 PM#157

Posting again for the haters since for me it was the last post on a page.

 

 

"How do you tell every player that they’re the saviour of the world in an MMO? It’s a sticky question that many MMOs face, and that few deal with especially well. Tom sat down with game director Matt Firor to find out how Zenimax approach the problem in The Elder Scrolls Online.

 

“The way we do that in Elder Scrolls Online is there are parts of the game that you just do solo and you just do in a story instance. So the main backbone story of the game, which is your interaction with Molag Bal, one of the Daedric princes, you’re the hero in that story, so you experience that only yourself.

It’s a familiar technique we’ve seen before in Star Wars: The Old Republic, LoTRO and many other MMOs that do their storytelling in carefully choreographed instances. "

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 87

3/22/13 1:21:12 PM#158

I am really hyped about this game, but if it will indeed include no endgame raid content then I won't ever touch it and neither will nobody I know, because I won't be telling them about the game. And I am one such person out of probably a hundred thousand. Why? Because I am a hardcore gamer and I will be max level in probably less than a week and if it really has no endgame raiding then really I probably will be playing something else a month later and without any new content coming up, will never touch the game again.

If it will have no endgame raiding or just a lack of endgame raid content, it will never see the success it aims for and will go the same path as some of these wowkiller games that had no raid content at release and didn't improve (or had so easy raid content that it wasn't even worth calling raid content).

Age of Conan

Swtor

Rift (rift improved on this after half a year and eventually it became a great game and pretty much was the only rival for world of warcraft)

Gw2

TERA

Aion

hundreds of small titles

 

There is no question. If they don't add raid content to the game this will be just a "buy at release, quit a month later and tell everybody that it sucks" game. Whatever, I guess good luck to bethesda, seems every big company needs to experience the loss of 70% subsribers themselves after realizing the way mmorpg's and people's mouths work. They could just learn from the past, but nope. Just lets keep doing the same mistake over and over and over again. Lol. Most of you just don't understand it or don't give a shit because you simply don't play a lot of games or just do not think about why games actually fail and lose subscribers. Most of you just want to play a game, without caring about anything else or anyone else, only your own personal fun.

 

GL to ESO

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/22/13 1:23:15 PM#159
Originally posted by Vembumees

I am really hyped about this game, but if it will indeed include no endgame raid content then I won't ever touch it and neither will nobody I know, because I won't be telling them about the game. And I am one such person out of probably a hundred thousand.

If it will have no endgame raiding or just a lack of endgame raid content, it will never see the success it aims for and will go the same path as some of these wowkiller games that had no raid content at release and didn't improve (or had so easy raid content that it wasn't even worth calling raid content).

Age of Conan

Swtor

Rift (rift improved on this after half a year and eventually it became a great game and pretty much was the only rival for world of warcraft)

Gw2

hundreds of small titles

 

There is no question. If they don't add raid content to the game this will be just a "buy at release, quit a month later and tell everybody that it sucks" game. Whatever, I guess good luck to bethesda, seems every big company needs to experience the loss of 70% subsribers themselves after realizing the way mmorpg's and people's mouths work. They could just learn from the past, but nope. Just lets keep doing the same mistake over and over and over again. Lol. Most of you just don't understand it or don't give a shit because you simply don't play a lot of games or just do not think about why games actually fail and lose subscribers. Most of you just want to play a game, without caring about anything else or anyone else, only your own personal fun.

 

GL to ESO

That is why I am more excited for Everquest Next than I am for this. Although I will buy this, ESO might be the stop-gap game for me until Everquest Next.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3712

 
OP  3/22/13 1:23:19 PM#160
Originally posted by Homitu
Although I'm a huge GW2 fan, I do find myself lamenting the lack of challenging group content (in the form of raids of whatever.)  I'm definitely a fan of progressing through hard content with a group and the triumphant feeling of teamwork that comes with it.  Do I think every game needs it though?  No.  Each game needs to have its own identity. 

Ya GW2 has been my MMO sinse it came out and I didnt know I would miss raids and the trinity lol 

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