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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is there only one MMORPG where you can play as a dragon?

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70 posts found
  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2232

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  3/20/13 9:44:40 PM#21
Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want to share armors between all of the different races, then it's a lot easier if the races are all shaped similarly.  Pants on a mermaid won't work, for example.  You can stretch a given texture to fit similarly shaped races that are fatter or skinner, or taller or shorter.  But trying to fit a texture to a race that is topologically different just isn't going to work.

If you wanted all of the races to be shaped like a mermaid, with a fish tail instead of legs, then it wouldn't really be any harder than making all of the races be the usual humanoid shape of two arms, two legs, and a head.  The same is true if you wanted all races to have four arms instead of two, or all races to have wings instead of arms.  But how accepting would players be of a game where none of the characters looked terribly anthropomorphic?

Another alternative would be for each race in the game to only have a few armor styles, so that you don't need to share armor looks between races.  If you're going to have 50 armors and 10 races in total, then it's not really any harder to have 5 armors available to each race with races that look very different than it is to have the same 50 armors available to all races.  But how accepting would players be of a game where there were only a few armor styles that your character could ever have?

Also, a purely underwater game is probably a bad idea if it's going to have combat.  No one has yet figured out how to make undewater combat work very well, as far too often, you get attacked by something off the screen and have no idea where you're taking damage from.  That's fine if it's not going to be a combat-centric game, but that would mean you're wandering way off into niche territory.

It's not that what you want can't be done.  It's that there are trade-offs that game developers typically aren't willing to make.

 

So... The problem is that developers would have to work a bit extra hard to create different armors to fit different races... I really don't see a problem with that.

Smile

  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

3/20/13 9:47:38 PM#22

Back when Huxley was a dream on paper,you could play as a Dragon..

 

sounded awesome.

  shaddy33

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/07
Posts: 77

3/20/13 9:56:59 PM#23
Originally posted by dumpcat
I had an idea like this once... A Jump To Conclusions Mat! You see....it would be a mat with different conclusions on it that you could jump to....

Just kidding... I not sure about birds and flocks though!

I sprayed beer out my nose laughing at this. Seriously, made my night man. Great movie btw!

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5241

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/20/13 11:50:59 PM#24
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Because dragons are typically op in rpgs. Can breath fire/acid/lightning/frost. Can cast spells. Is resistant to spells. Have darkvision. Have strong armor by default. etc. It is as bad as letting players play Beholder or Mind Flayer as a race.

 Just don't let them be that powerful.  In Istaria there isn't that issue, they can breath fire/lightnight/frost and fly but are no more resistant to magic/weapons than others and many bipeds outdmg them.

 If they are not powerful then they are shit dragons :(

It will be like Beholder with no eyes, lol

 I guess thats one  way to look at it, another way is I guess the bipeds are just really powerfull.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14670

3/21/13 11:06:50 AM#25
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Depending on the race, visible armor may not be needed like dragons in Istaria.

And how accepting would players be of "there's no visible clothing, so your character will look the same forever with little customization"?  Some players would be fine with that, but again, it's about trade-offs.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14670

3/21/13 11:08:56 AM#26
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

This has been an interest of mine for an age as well. I touched on it a bit in my thread on archetypes http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/379710/What-Character-Archetypes-Interest-You.html

Universal armor is hardly a legit concern, as many games have race and even class specific armor. Some have humanoids with tails, tentacles and all sorts of unique physiologies, and a few games have done non humanoid beside dragon from what I hear about LotRO.

If you're going to have a fixed number of total armor designs (as dictated by your budget), the more you can share them across races and classes, the more options a given player can have.  That's not to say that you have to share all of them across all races and all classes.  But again, it's about trade-offs.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 20112

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/21/13 11:13:36 AM#27
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want to share armors between all of the different races, then it's a lot easier if the races are all shaped similarly.  Pants on a mermaid won't work, for example.  You can stretch a given texture to fit similarly shaped races that are fatter or skinner, or taller or shorter.  But trying to fit a texture to a race that is topologically different just isn't going to work.

If you wanted all of the races to be shaped like a mermaid, with a fish tail instead of legs, then it wouldn't really be any harder than making all of the races be the usual humanoid shape of two arms, two legs, and a head.  The same is true if you wanted all races to have four arms instead of two, or all races to have wings instead of arms.  But how accepting would players be of a game where none of the characters looked terribly anthropomorphic?

Another alternative would be for each race in the game to only have a few armor styles, so that you don't need to share armor looks between races.  If you're going to have 50 armors and 10 races in total, then it's not really any harder to have 5 armors available to each race with races that look very different than it is to have the same 50 armors available to all races.  But how accepting would players be of a game where there were only a few armor styles that your character could ever have?

Also, a purely underwater game is probably a bad idea if it's going to have combat.  No one has yet figured out how to make undewater combat work very well, as far too often, you get attacked by something off the screen and have no idea where you're taking damage from.  That's fine if it's not going to be a combat-centric game, but that would mean you're wandering way off into niche territory.

It's not that what you want can't be done.  It's that there are trade-offs that game developers typically aren't willing to make.

 

So... The problem is that developers would have to work a bit extra hard to create different armors to fit different races... I really don't see a problem with that.

It costs more money.....and there's only so much budget to go around.  You may be understimating what it costs to create all those different armor options for multiple races.

You might not have a problem with that, the people footing the bills do.

 

 

In my day MMORPG's were sooooo hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow....uphill both ways.
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14670

3/21/13 11:14:04 AM#28
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want to share armors between all of the different races, then it's a lot easier if the races are all shaped similarly.  Pants on a mermaid won't work, for example.  You can stretch a given texture to fit similarly shaped races that are fatter or skinner, or taller or shorter.  But trying to fit a texture to a race that is topologically different just isn't going to work.

If you wanted all of the races to be shaped like a mermaid, with a fish tail instead of legs, then it wouldn't really be any harder than making all of the races be the usual humanoid shape of two arms, two legs, and a head.  The same is true if you wanted all races to have four arms instead of two, or all races to have wings instead of arms.  But how accepting would players be of a game where none of the characters looked terribly anthropomorphic?

Another alternative would be for each race in the game to only have a few armor styles, so that you don't need to share armor looks between races.  If you're going to have 50 armors and 10 races in total, then it's not really any harder to have 5 armors available to each race with races that look very different than it is to have the same 50 armors available to all races.  But how accepting would players be of a game where there were only a few armor styles that your character could ever have?

Also, a purely underwater game is probably a bad idea if it's going to have combat.  No one has yet figured out how to make undewater combat work very well, as far too often, you get attacked by something off the screen and have no idea where you're taking damage from.  That's fine if it's not going to be a combat-centric game, but that would mean you're wandering way off into niche territory.

It's not that what you want can't be done.  It's that there are trade-offs that game developers typically aren't willing to make.

 

So... The problem is that developers would have to work a bit extra hard to create different armors to fit different races... I really don't see a problem with that.

Imagine if you're funding a game, and the developers come to you saying, we'd like an extra $10 million for artwork so that we can create a bunch of race-specific armors for a bunch of differently shaped playable races that make it so that different races don't have to share armors.  No sir, this won't have any effect on gameplay itself, but only artwork.  Yes, an extra $10 million beyond the initial budget is what we decided it would cost to animate all of of the new armors that we want.  No, this isn't a cost overrun; this is a new feature we want you to fund.  No, this doesn't mean that feature creep is going to lead us to asking for an extra $200 million by the time we're done with it.

So, do you give them the extra funding, or tell them to just make the races shaped more similarly to save money, like just about every other game on the market does?

Again, it's about trade-offs.  I'm not saying that having wildly different playable races is a bad idea.  But there are real sacrifices that you'd have to make to allow it, and less character customization on a given budget for any individual character is a big trade-off.

  pmw4friend

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/13
Posts: 62

even though all the adds might be against you, giving up is not an option.

3/21/13 11:33:33 AM#29
If you would ask the person who's founding the project for $10 mill just for art work, I would see the conversation going a little like this :

Hey sir I would like $10 mil, to create extra armor to fit the different types of races.
Sponsor "would it have a tremendous affect on the game?"
No
"Would it get us more players? "
Maybe
"Well sir, I'm sorry but there is no way in hell ill spend $10 mil on bulls***, so get the f*** out of my office. "


No one will waste money on something that isn't going to make them more money.
  nbtscan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 751

3/21/13 11:35:56 AM#30
I hope FFXIV: ARR adds a draconic race.  There was a poll taken a while back asking what new races people would be interested in and this came up as one.  Unfortunately one of the other options was for a bipedal mammilian race which everyone interpreted as "Viera" and a majority the weeaboos voted for it.  :/  I don't get why people wouldn't be interested in something new instead of something from an older game.
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5241

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/21/13 11:55:29 AM#31
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Depending on the race, visible armor may not be needed like dragons in Istaria.

And how accepting would players be of "there's no visible clothing, so your character will look the same forever with little customization"?  Some players would be fine with that, but again, it's about trade-offs.

 Depending on the race very accepting.  Some races/animals just don't look good with armor, Istaria's dragons are one of them.  They still had armor, it just wasn't visible.  The customization wasn't in the looks (after the initial character creation anyway).

The lack of visible armor on dragons was never a big point, some people said it but most didn't care.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/21/13 12:15:51 PM#32

I'd see it as a fine chance to design a game that ran backwards.

You start at the peak, the apex predator, and begin de-leveling (eventually reaching L0 unclassed serf). Or, I guess, for a dragon you delevel all the way back to the egg.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2232

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  3/21/13 1:05:54 PM#33
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want to share armors between all of the different races, then it's a lot easier if the races are all shaped similarly.  Pants on a mermaid won't work, for example.  You can stretch a given texture to fit similarly shaped races that are fatter or skinner, or taller or shorter.  But trying to fit a texture to a race that is topologically different just isn't going to work.

If you wanted all of the races to be shaped like a mermaid, with a fish tail instead of legs, then it wouldn't really be any harder than making all of the races be the usual humanoid shape of two arms, two legs, and a head.  The same is true if you wanted all races to have four arms instead of two, or all races to have wings instead of arms.  But how accepting would players be of a game where none of the characters looked terribly anthropomorphic?

Another alternative would be for each race in the game to only have a few armor styles, so that you don't need to share armor looks between races.  If you're going to have 50 armors and 10 races in total, then it's not really any harder to have 5 armors available to each race with races that look very different than it is to have the same 50 armors available to all races.  But how accepting would players be of a game where there were only a few armor styles that your character could ever have?

Also, a purely underwater game is probably a bad idea if it's going to have combat.  No one has yet figured out how to make undewater combat work very well, as far too often, you get attacked by something off the screen and have no idea where you're taking damage from.  That's fine if it's not going to be a combat-centric game, but that would mean you're wandering way off into niche territory.

It's not that what you want can't be done.  It's that there are trade-offs that game developers typically aren't willing to make.

 

So... The problem is that developers would have to work a bit extra hard to create different armors to fit different races... I really don't see a problem with that.

Imagine if you're funding a game, and the developers come to you saying, we'd like an extra $10 million for artwork so that we can create a bunch of race-specific armors for a bunch of differently shaped playable races that make it so that different races don't have to share armors.  No sir, this won't have any effect on gameplay itself, but only artwork.  Yes, an extra $10 million beyond the initial budget is what we decided it would cost to animate all of of the new armors that we want.  No, this isn't a cost overrun; this is a new feature we want you to fund.  No, this doesn't mean that feature creep is going to lead us to asking for an extra $200 million by the time we're done with it.

So, do you give them the extra funding, or tell them to just make the races shaped more similarly to save money, like just about every other game on the market does?

Again, it's about trade-offs.  I'm not saying that having wildly different playable races is a bad idea.  But there are real sacrifices that you'd have to make to allow it, and less character customization on a given budget for any individual character is a big trade-off.

Weird that money is coming up as a problem when it seems like most companies have plenty of cash to waste on the same ol same (example: SW:TOR had an estimated budget of $200 million dollars... If you can't create something awesome and unique out of that then I dont know what can).

Smile

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 307

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/21/13 9:49:21 PM#34
Please spare us any more nonsensical examples with ridiculous figures quizzical, it does not cost 10 million dollars to fit armors on various creatures (I like the part where racial and class specific armor being common was completely discounted), as if you even need them, and your feature creep example includes the cost to launch 4 MMOs.... A huge number of art assets are already used to make up the game world, enemies, structures, and animations, many already used on these creatures because the exist as foes. And many foes exist with multiple reskins anyway.

A creature would often not wear armor, and a character creator for them would probably be the biggest investment, one far less prohibitive than you suggest. Games already use a great deal of custom dye options and coloring your beast as well as certain creatures wearing equipment is not that complex.

And before we hear another nonsensical example of abstract figures with no bearing... Any cost to make an MMO for whatever content is pitched can be presented as a liability as well as an asset. The vast number of highly anticipated, seemingly infallible IPs that have failed show testament that no special feature, IP or acclaimed archetype is above failure.

Doesn't matter if your FF, Star wars, Richard Garret or Obama, your making an investment. And I'm certainly not accepting quizzicals personal disbelief as anything but blindness. Sorry, but misplaced conviction and fabricated limitations don't amount to anything.

I'd say let a professional validate the subject, but we all know how consistently successful their judgement is, so nobodies qualified to make a statement for certain, I don't know why I would settle for the wild assumption of a random poster...

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 307

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/21/13 9:56:26 PM#35

And before any more ingenious arguments arise about the cost of unique creature characters and the incapability of doing it, Horizons did it before WoW grew the genre, and even with abysmal graphics and several developer trade overs, was able to survive even today on technology built a decade ago. Stop flashing ridiculously inaccurate figures in a feeble attempt to validate your disbelief.

Any further nonsense on the subject will be met with screenshots of Horizons dragons customization variations and content links to the upcoming Dragon's Prophet game...

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1147

3/21/13 10:33:37 PM#36
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Because dragons are typically op in rpgs. Can breath fire/acid/lightning/frost. Can cast spells. Is resistant to spells. Have darkvision. Have strong armor by default. etc. It is as bad as letting players play Beholder or Mind Flayer as a race.

 Just don't let them be that powerful.  In Istaria there isn't that issue, they can breath fire/lightnight/frost and fly but are no more resistant to magic/weapons than others and many bipeds outdmg them.

 If they are not powerful then they are shit dragons :(

It will be like Beholder with no eyes, lol

 I guess thats one  way to look at it, another way is I guess the bipeds are just really powerfull.

 Well Dragonlance has draconians if you can live with that.

 

Full blown dragons however... that like letting players be god (even if without god powers), because that's what dragons are usually identified with.

 

It will be like letting play go straight to playing a Lich too without first earning the power to be a Lich.

 

Maybe dragonhood should be a goal achievable in an mmo? Like how PCs can achieve godhood in Pathfinder RPG?

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 307

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/21/13 10:46:08 PM#37

Dragons are often depicted as whelps first, than would at some point be in an adolecent phase before growing to be 40 feet long. And the game doesn't even have to allow you to progress that far, a 15 to 20 foot dragon could pass, and massive unit trade offs could be considered as well if they did go large, like additional damage from AoE spells and easier target acquasition.

Beyond that, a game with a multitude of character types could explore variant character development beginings, like WotLK, you could be made to achieve a certain amount with an alternate before starting with certain characters and begin at a different starting value.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  nottykid

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/07
Posts: 15

3/21/13 10:48:32 PM#38

Because Dragons can not:

1. Wear equips (unless they personify them, and that would be lame)

2. Pick up items (where do you put that sword and what use is it)

3. Limited skills (fly, fire breath, claw, tail whip...not much else without being redundent)

4. Races (red dragon, green dragon, blue dragon...)

5. No crafting

6. What does the dragon fight? Would it feel wrong if it's HARD for the dragon to kill people?

7. Every player deep down wants to feel important or reveared; hard to be AMAZING, when everyone is.

 

So no loot, no/limited customization, no crafting, unrewarding progression (few skills),  plot would have difficult "end game"

so what OTHER things did i not mention that define an MMO.

  User Deleted
3/21/13 10:48:37 PM#39
It would be pretty epic if an avatar could transform into a dragon. 
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5241

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/21/13 10:54:01 PM#40
Originally posted by nottykid

Because Dragons can not:

1. Wear equips (unless they personify them, and that would be lame)

2. Pick up items (where do you put that sword and what use is it)

3. Limited skills (fly, fire breath, claw, tail whip...not much else without being redundent)

4. Races (red dragon, green dragon, blue dragon...)

5. No crafting

6. What does the dragon fight? Would it feel wrong if it's HARD for the dragon to kill people?

7. Every player deep down wants to feel important or reveared; hard to be AMAZING, when everyone is.

 

So no loot, no/limited customization, no crafting, unrewarding progression (few skills),  plot would have difficult "end game"

so what OTHER things did i not mention that define an MMO.

In Istaria dragons start out as hatchlings, and are pretty week.  AFter so many days played, hoard size, adventure adn level you can become an adult, much bigger and can fly.  later you can become an ancient, again much bigger and can fly.  The bipeds can multiclass

Istarian dragons do have hammer just not visible,

A lot of skills, a dozen different melle, few dozen different spells.

They can pick up itms, they put them in dimensional pockets.

They are no dragon races.

Tons and tons and tons and tons of crafting, spells, scales, you can even dig out your lair.

Fights the same thing as all the other players.

So tonnes of loot, tons of crafting, very rewarding progression, lots of skills.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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