Originally posted by Gravarg

FFXI had a good system for a controller to use, but that caused alot of PC users to not like it.  When you have 100 more "buttons" to press on one format, it's hard to whiddle it down to 10-15 buttons on a console controller...Then there's the chat problem.  It's unbearably horrid to chat with a controller, takes you a year to type "OK".  

I know they sell keyboards and mice for consoles, but then aren't you just playing a PC?

DCUO has one the worst chat interfaces ive ever seen but it is functional

i think DCUO is good example of  a recent mmo that works better on consoles than PCs due to the games interface design

Originally posted by Nadia

i think DCUO is good example of  a recent mmo that works better on consoles than PCs due to the games interface design

Which is not a surprise since it came to life as "THE" PS3 console mmo :) the whole gameplay, interface, etc. was built around PS3 capabilities and controller.

So it's no wonder that 70% playing it on PS3... (according to Smed, http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-07-18-70-percent-of-dc-universe-online-audience-play-on-playstation-3).

I think there will be at least one new MMO on the PS4.

I just don't know if I tend to care about console gaming anymore. 

"Unity Engine Headed to PlayStation Platforms"
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/03/22/unity-engine-headed-to-playstation-platforms

Does this increase the likelihood? Any MMOs built on Unity?

Originally posted by Ty|er

Originally posted by FromHell

My dream MMO on PS4 would be made by Rockstar and would be based on the Red Dead Redemption IP.

 

Hell ya, Should be just A W E S O M E!

I would love a Red Dead Redemption MMO!

Level 5 President Interested in Creating MMORPGs for PS4

“I am very interested in MMORPGs. It is a genre in which Level-5 has not been much involved so far, but I would try to make a game rich and high quality, which fully utilizes the technical capabilities of the console.”

- Akihiro Hino, president of Level 5

http://gamingbolt.com/level-5-president-interested-in-creating-mmorpgs-for-ps4

The biggest barrier for MMORPG games on a console is the controller.

Sure, some consoles have been able to use mice/keyboards, but only as additional accessories - games don't tend to do well for a console if they require aftermarket hardware (Guitar Hero seems to be an exception).

And some games replace text with VOIP, but by and large, MMORPGs have been wed to keyboard input, and to a smaller degree mouse movement.

It can be done, and has been done. There isn't anything special about the PS4 that will make it any better or more practical though.

Originally posted by Ridelynn

The biggest barrier for MMORPG games on a console is the controller.

Sure, some consoles have been able to use mice/keyboards, but only as additional accessories - games don't tend to do well for a console if they require aftermarket hardware (Guitar Hero seems to be an exception).

And some games replace text with VOIP, but by and large, MMORPGs have been wed to keyboard input, and to a smaller degree mouse movement.

It can be done, and has been done. There isn't anything special about the PS4 that will make it any better or more practical though.

In terms of communication, every PS4 will ship with a headset which plugs into the gamepad. This screams multiplayer.

As for having enough keys to pull off all the abilities/commands, that's where we see a bit less capability. Although Final Fantasy has an interesting take on this called the "cross hotbar" which allows you to map 16 commands to shoulder button + front-facing button combos.

I also think the touchpad has some potential... like maybe you create your own "swipe" gesture to use different abilities?

Originally posted by Quizzical

In terms of technical capabilities, making an MMORPG for PlayStation 4 shouldn't be that hard--apart from in the sense that making an MMORPG is intrinsically hard.

The bigger barrier is whether it makes any business sense to do so.  In that regard, the answer is, not likely.

You need to understand why consoles still exist in the first place.  The problem with making a single-player game for PC is that it can be pirated.  And people will pirate it, to the degree that most of your "players" will pirate it instead of paying for it.  That's a big probelm if you're a game developer and want to be paid.  Consoles have strong anti-piracy protections in place, which makes it so that if you make a console game, people have to pay for it in order to get to play.

But those anti-piracy protections don't come for free.  You have to pay a considerable chunk of your revenue (e.g., 30%) to whoever made the console in order for them to let your game run on their console.  30% in console fees sure beats losing 90% to piracy, so that's a good deal for most single-player games.

The reason consoles have to charge that fee is that they typically lose money by selling the console hardware itself.  The console business plan is to lose money on the initial hardware sale, but make it up from the games that sell.  But that only works if games actually sell.

MMORPGs, however, have no need for console anti-piracy protections.  That everyone has to connect to your servers in order to play your game gives you all the anti-piracy protection you need.  If you want to release your game for a console, however, you still have to pay a large fraction of your revenue to whoever made the console.  That means that an MMORPG developer will strongly prefer the PC platform unless his customers insist that it needs to be on consoles--and are willing to pay more for it to be on consoles.

If you could play an MMORPG on PC for $15/month or exactly the same MMORPG on a console for $20/month, which would you choose?  Most people would go with PC, to the degree that releasing it for consoles isn't necessarily a good idea.

You might well prefer consoles if you think you're going to play "free to play" games and never actually pay anything.  But console manufacturers understand this approach as well.  If you're never going to buy any games that they'll get paid for, then they don't want you to buy their console in the first place.  (Remember when Sony disabled Linux on PS3?  I think this is why.  Too many of the people who installed Linux on a PS3 were using it for other purposes and not buying games on it.)  Console manufacturers can restrict the business model of games available for their console, and in the past, have been willing to veto a "free to play" model.

You don't release an MMORPG for consoles unless you believe that having a console version will increase your revenue by more than enough to offset the console fee.  If you charge the same price for the PC version as the console version, then a lot of your console revenue will just be cannibalizing your PC revenue.  You can offset that by charging more for the console version than the PC version, but that creates the problem of how many people will be willing to pay extra to play your game on a console rather than a PC.  Some who might have been willing to pay $20/month for a console MMORPG might refuse just to spite you for overcharging if they see that the same game is available for PC at $15/month.

There probably is a market for a handful of console MMORPGs, to pick up people who would like to play MMORPGs, but will only play on consoles and not PCs.  But there probably aren't that many such customers, so there isn't that much money to be made by catering to them.

I think you make some good points in terms of cost-effectiveness and business strategies, which does explain why there is  currently so little MMO exploration on consoles.

However, it seems like these new consoles (especially with the rumored next-xbox being always online, always connected required) are moving toward more of a centralized living entertainment medium, moreso than just someplace to sit and play Skyrim. It's convergence. PS4 will want to link with your PSVita, your phone, your Steam account... it's all getting more and more interconnected.

I think as these consoles expand on social capabilities while pushing out new games and giving developers new technology, as well as keeping a clear focus on digital distribution for the future (and of course, DRM) - we will start to see MMOs entering the market. I don't expect straight ports of the computer MMORPG cookie-cutter games of which there are soooooooo many. Maybe they won't be F2P, at least not right away, but in-time. I think this is how MMOs will evolve. 

I mean, these consoles are designed to keep you always connected, always playing... just like an MMO right? Just from your couch instead of your computer chair.

Originally posted by VancePants

Originally posted by Quizzical

In terms of technical capabilities, making an MMORPG for PlayStation 4 shouldn't be that hard--apart from in the sense that making an MMORPG is intrinsically hard.

The bigger barrier is whether it makes any business sense to do so.  In that regard, the answer is, not likely.

You need to understand why consoles still exist in the first place.  The problem with making a single-player game for PC is that it can be pirated.  And people will pirate it, to the degree that most of your "players" will pirate it instead of paying for it.  That's a big probelm if you're a game developer and want to be paid.  Consoles have strong anti-piracy protections in place, which makes it so that if you make a console game, people have to pay for it in order to get to play.

But those anti-piracy protections don't come for free.  You have to pay a considerable chunk of your revenue (e.g., 30%) to whoever made the console in order for them to let your game run on their console.  30% in console fees sure beats losing 90% to piracy, so that's a good deal for most single-player games.

The reason consoles have to charge that fee is that they typically lose money by selling the console hardware itself.  The console business plan is to lose money on the initial hardware sale, but make it up from the games that sell.  But that only works if games actually sell.

MMORPGs, however, have no need for console anti-piracy protections.  That everyone has to connect to your servers in order to play your game gives you all the anti-piracy protection you need.  If you want to release your game for a console, however, you still have to pay a large fraction of your revenue to whoever made the console.  That means that an MMORPG developer will strongly prefer the PC platform unless his customers insist that it needs to be on consoles--and are willing to pay more for it to be on consoles.

If you could play an MMORPG on PC for $15/month or exactly the same MMORPG on a console for $20/month, which would you choose?  Most people would go with PC, to the degree that releasing it for consoles isn't necessarily a good idea.

You might well prefer consoles if you think you're going to play "free to play" games and never actually pay anything.  But console manufacturers understand this approach as well.  If you're never going to buy any games that they'll get paid for, then they don't want you to buy their console in the first place.  (Remember when Sony disabled Linux on PS3?  I think this is why.  Too many of the people who installed Linux on a PS3 were using it for other purposes and not buying games on it.)  Console manufacturers can restrict the business model of games available for their console, and in the past, have been willing to veto a "free to play" model.

You don't release an MMORPG for consoles unless you believe that having a console version will increase your revenue by more than enough to offset the console fee.  If you charge the same price for the PC version as the console version, then a lot of your console revenue will just be cannibalizing your PC revenue.  You can offset that by charging more for the console version than the PC version, but that creates the problem of how many people will be willing to pay extra to play your game on a console rather than a PC.  Some who might have been willing to pay $20/month for a console MMORPG might refuse just to spite you for overcharging if they see that the same game is available for PC at $15/month.

There probably is a market for a handful of console MMORPGs, to pick up people who would like to play MMORPGs, but will only play on consoles and not PCs.  But there probably aren't that many such customers, so there isn't that much money to be made by catering to them.

I think you make some good points in terms of cost-effectiveness and business strategies, which does explain why there is  currently so little MMO exploration on consoles.

 

However, it seems like these new consoles (especially with the rumored next-xbox being always online, always connected required) are moving toward more of a centralized living entertainment medium, moreso than just someplace to sit and play Skyrim. It's convergence. PS4 will want to link with your PSVita, your phone, your Steam account... it's all getting more and more interconnected.

 

I think as these consoles expand on social capabilities while pushing out new games and giving developers new technology, as well as keeping a clear focus on digital distribution for the future (and of course, DRM) - we will start to see MMOs entering the market. I don't expect straight ports of the computer MMORPG cookie-cutter games of which there are soooooooo many. Maybe they won't be F2P, at least not right away, but in-time. I think this is how MMOs will evolve. 

 

I mean, these consoles are designed to keep you always connected, always playing... just like an MMO right? Just from your couch instead of your computer chair.

Good analysis. I totally agree with you. =) Really hoping we see some innovation that snaps out of the cookie cutter mold for MMOs.

I'd really like to see more action-based open world PVP types.

I think you will see more on the XBox 720, than on the PS4. Microsoft is rumored to be launching the 720 as an "Install only device", crunchning Gamestop and their "used game racket". This would make MMORPGs much more viable. In addition to XBox being much more like a computer than the other consoles, making the transition easier.

My 2 pennies.

Originally posted by VancePants

Originally posted by Quizzical

In terms of technical capabilities, making an MMORPG for PlayStation 4 shouldn't be that hard--apart from in the sense that making an MMORPG is intrinsically hard.

The bigger barrier is whether it makes any business sense to do so.  In that regard, the answer is, not likely.

You need to understand why consoles still exist in the first place.  The problem with making a single-player game for PC is that it can be pirated.  And people will pirate it, to the degree that most of your "players" will pirate it instead of paying for it.  That's a big probelm if you're a game developer and want to be paid.  Consoles have strong anti-piracy protections in place, which makes it so that if you make a console game, people have to pay for it in order to get to play.

But those anti-piracy protections don't come for free.  You have to pay a considerable chunk of your revenue (e.g., 30%) to whoever made the console in order for them to let your game run on their console.  30% in console fees sure beats losing 90% to piracy, so that's a good deal for most single-player games.

The reason consoles have to charge that fee is that they typically lose money by selling the console hardware itself.  The console business plan is to lose money on the initial hardware sale, but make it up from the games that sell.  But that only works if games actually sell.

MMORPGs, however, have no need for console anti-piracy protections.  That everyone has to connect to your servers in order to play your game gives you all the anti-piracy protection you need.  If you want to release your game for a console, however, you still have to pay a large fraction of your revenue to whoever made the console.  That means that an MMORPG developer will strongly prefer the PC platform unless his customers insist that it needs to be on consoles--and are willing to pay more for it to be on consoles.

If you could play an MMORPG on PC for $15/month or exactly the same MMORPG on a console for $20/month, which would you choose?  Most people would go with PC, to the degree that releasing it for consoles isn't necessarily a good idea.

You might well prefer consoles if you think you're going to play "free to play" games and never actually pay anything.  But console manufacturers understand this approach as well.  If you're never going to buy any games that they'll get paid for, then they don't want you to buy their console in the first place.  (Remember when Sony disabled Linux on PS3?  I think this is why.  Too many of the people who installed Linux on a PS3 were using it for other purposes and not buying games on it.)  Console manufacturers can restrict the business model of games available for their console, and in the past, have been willing to veto a "free to play" model.

You don't release an MMORPG for consoles unless you believe that having a console version will increase your revenue by more than enough to offset the console fee.  If you charge the same price for the PC version as the console version, then a lot of your console revenue will just be cannibalizing your PC revenue.  You can offset that by charging more for the console version than the PC version, but that creates the problem of how many people will be willing to pay extra to play your game on a console rather than a PC.  Some who might have been willing to pay $20/month for a console MMORPG might refuse just to spite you for overcharging if they see that the same game is available for PC at $15/month.

There probably is a market for a handful of console MMORPGs, to pick up people who would like to play MMORPGs, but will only play on consoles and not PCs.  But there probably aren't that many such customers, so there isn't that much money to be made by catering to them.

I think you make some good points in terms of cost-effectiveness and business strategies, which does explain why there is  currently so little MMO exploration on consoles.

 

However, it seems like these new consoles (especially with the rumored next-xbox being always online, always connected required) are moving toward more of a centralized living entertainment medium, moreso than just someplace to sit and play Skyrim. It's convergence. PS4 will want to link with your PSVita, your phone, your Steam account... it's all getting more and more interconnected.

 

I think as these consoles expand on social capabilities while pushing out new games and giving developers new technology, as well as keeping a clear focus on digital distribution for the future (and of course, DRM) - we will start to see MMOs entering the market. I don't expect straight ports of the computer MMORPG cookie-cutter games of which there are soooooooo many. Maybe they won't be F2P, at least not right away, but in-time. I think this is how MMOs will evolve. 

 

I mean, these consoles are designed to keep you always connected, always playing... just like an MMO right? Just from your couch instead of your computer chair.

You're arguing that the PS4 will be different from the PS3 in some ways that are irrelevant to MMORPGs, but not in the key factor that keeps MMORPGs from coming to PS3, namely, Sony taking a large cut of the game's revenue.  How exactly will that lead to a sudden flood of MMORPGs on PS4?

You could argue that there weren't many MMORPGs on PS3 because Cell is a pain to deal with, and PS4 won't have that problem.  But Xbox 360 didn't have that problem, either, and we didn't exactly see a flood of MMORPGs made for Xbox 360.

I'd expect to see a few MMORPGs for next generation consoles.  But only a few.  The overwhelming majority of MMORPGs will likely remain PC-only.  If that changes, the movement is more likely to be toward Android (which, like PCs is also an open platform) than PS4 or the next Xbox.

Originally posted by Four0Six

I think you will see more on the XBox 720, than on the PS4. Microsoft is rumored to be launching the 720 as an "Install only device", crunchning Gamestop and their "used game racket". This would make MMORPGs much more viable. In addition to XBox being much more like a computer than the other consoles, making the transition easier.

My 2 pennies.

And why would MMORPGs care about that?  If used game sales are a problem (which is a different topic entirely), it's only a problem for buy-to-play games, not subscription or item mall games.

If Xbox 720 does block used game sales, the likely effect will be more people inclined to buy a PS4 rather than an Xbox 720.  Having a larger install base available would tend to push anything with a subscription or item mall business model (which includes nearly all MMORPGs) toward PS4 rather than Xbox 720.

That's a big "if", of course; I'm skeptical that Microsoft would really block used game sales on Xbox 720, simply because if they do, PS4 probably wins the next round of the console wars.  Game developers will go to the platform that has the paying customers.

Originally posted by Normandy7
Isn't CCP's Dust 514 going to be playable on the PS4 ?

Another one is Defiance which just came out. It's a third-person shooter with an open world. I was sceptical at first but the trailers make it look cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTGP-Mms6U

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Four0Six

I think you will see more on the XBox 720, than on the PS4. Microsoft is rumored to be launching the 720 as an "Install only device", crunchning Gamestop and their "used game racket". This would make MMORPGs much more viable. In addition to XBox being much more like a computer than the other consoles, making the transition easier.

My 2 pennies.

And why would MMORPGs care about that?  If used game sales are a problem (which is a different topic entirely), it's only a problem for buy-to-play games, not subscription or item mall games.

If Xbox 720 does block used game sales, the likely effect will be more people inclined to buy a PS4 rather than an Xbox 720.  Having a larger install base available would tend to push anything with a subscription or item mall business model (which includes nearly all MMORPGs) toward PS4 rather than Xbox 720.

That's a big "if", of course; I'm skeptical that Microsoft would really block used game sales on Xbox 720, simply because if they do, PS4 probably wins the next round of the console wars.  Game developers will go to the platform that has the paying customers.

I disagree.

The big problem was publishing updates and paying vast sums to do patches. If Sony can help devs overcome this, which it sounds like they can, devs can make a pretty penny using the huge install base of a console. They are also guaranteed a consistent experience for all players regardless of their rig... because it's all the same.

Originally posted by Bidwood

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Four0Six

I think you will see more on the XBox 720, than on the PS4. Microsoft is rumored to be launching the 720 as an "Install only device", crunchning Gamestop and their "used game racket". This would make MMORPGs much more viable. In addition to XBox being much more like a computer than the other consoles, making the transition easier.

My 2 pennies.

And why would MMORPGs care about that?  If used game sales are a problem (which is a different topic entirely), it's only a problem for buy-to-play games, not subscription or item mall games.

If Xbox 720 does block used game sales, the likely effect will be more people inclined to buy a PS4 rather than an Xbox 720.  Having a larger install base available would tend to push anything with a subscription or item mall business model (which includes nearly all MMORPGs) toward PS4 rather than Xbox 720.

That's a big "if", of course; I'm skeptical that Microsoft would really block used game sales on Xbox 720, simply because if they do, PS4 probably wins the next round of the console wars.  Game developers will go to the platform that has the paying customers.

I disagree.

The big problem was publishing updates and paying vast sums to do patches. If Sony can help devs overcome this, which it sounds like they can, devs can make a pretty penny using the huge install base of a console. They are also guaranteed a consistent experience for all players regardless of their rig... because it's all the same.

And how will the PS4 be any different from the PS3 in that regard?  You seem to be assuming that Sony will use a different business model for the PS4 from what they used with the PS3.  If they were going to do that, then why not change the business model for the PS3 today?  Or for that matter, why not change it years ago?

The reason that updates and patches are such a pain is precisely because it's a closed platform.

Originally posted by Bidwood

Hi everyone,

I haven't been able to find out much on this...  but can anyone comment on how practical it will be for the PS4 to handle MMOs? It sounds like a much more modern machine and the the architecture makes it a lot easier to port over PC games without having to do many changes.

Sony is also trying to make the console more open to Indie developers...  or is at least claiming that. Apparently they will be able to self-publish their own games without needing a big publisher like Activision.

Thoughts?

The PS4 is no different than any other console that came before it, MMO's did not flourish on consoles not because of hardware limitations(at least not when it comes to processing power) since most consoles atleast in the first years of their life cycle are more powerful than the average PC(especially the ones that most MMO's users have).

Designing an MMO for consoles has it's own challenges, mostly in regards to controls, social interaction and average play session length.

You won't be able to play most of your traditional(EQ style) MMO's with a console controller, the interface and the combat was never designed for that. And games that require an additional add-on or a special controller usually fail, that also ties into the social aspect of the game since most MMO's till this point were chat based it will be quite hard to socialize in the game. VC will never be able to replace chat in MMO's, not everyone wants to reveal their voice, and not everyone is sufficiently fluent in speaking english. Also you need to remember that consoles thrive on pickup & play friendly games, MMO's usually require  a much lengthier play trough session than say Call of Duty. In all honesty sitting on a couch for 4-5 hours is not that comfortable(and yes i know some people do that, but still in most cases a decent chair and a desk will be preferable to most people).

In general i don't really see why some one would want an MMO on console, pretty much every trend and design choice(instant travel, automated ques, short instances etc.) that people(especially on this forum) seem to hate in today's MMO is not only a must for a console MMO, but most of them will be "enhanced" to make console gamers feel at home(i have no beef with console gamers, i own a 360 and a PS3 but the games i play on them are not the same games i choose to play on my PC).

If any thing the next frontier for MMO's will be mobile devices, and with how they been advancing in recent years it makes more sense to port an MMO from a mobile device to consoles than from a PC since mobile devices and consoles share similar limitations and design requirements.

OFC on top of that you have the "legal" BS that the console vendors impose on you, both in terms of royalties and interaction with their online platform can make the life of a developer/publisher a nightmare. Also it will be quite hard to design a game in which you can have people on both different consoles and the PC playing together, this is why it has not been done in almost any title before. Both due to the fact that the control's and the game play have to be adjusted for each platform(even for different consoles), and that it might be impossible(technically and otherwise) to link different online farmeworks together.

And the first rule of thumb for any MMO is never split your playerbase, MMO's live and die depending on the amount of people playing them, this isn't CoD where you split the games into 16 players without any one caring. Having your allready small(and havily contested) playerbase split between multiple platforms will kill any MMO no matter how good it is and how much money the publisher can afford to throw at it.

If this happens and they release some good mmo's that have no monthly fee but all the content like guild wars 2 a in game shop would make up the difference since people love to buy stuff with real money for mmo's.

however i myself have been burned out on mmo games in general for awhile but i have a open perspective to returning if i find something really appealing.