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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "Leveling ties us to the world MORE THAN ANYTHING"

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89 posts found
  hammarus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/10
Posts: 177

3/21/13 4:30:48 PM#61
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/21/13 4:40:33 PM#62
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Dihoru

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2619

3/21/13 4:44:56 PM#63
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

And then there's progression where it's you learning the game and it being built in such a way as to take it easy on you while you're still learning, such a progression system could have absolutely no levels and progression to be completely freeform (it could be story based, exploration based, crafting based, crafting in such a system would be all about experimenting to get the best items or the best possible not leveling a arbitrary level skill to unlock pwnboots of +50, etc).

 

The notion that progression = leveling is fundamentally flawed, leveling is just the simplest most rudimentary form of progression, progression is in itself evolution, the most obvious way to quantify evolution is with numbers but being obvious does not mean being good. The only reason people equate leveling with progression in RPG is because the original PC RPGs were at least inspired by D&D which used leveling as a metric for character progression but in D&D you can excuse this because it was already relatively hard to quantify leveling, if you added in a freeform evolution of character it would've made DMing damn near impossible but here's the thing we're not limited to Pen and Paper here, this is a medium where freeform evolution of a character is not only possible but would also be a massive improvement.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

3/21/13 4:47:52 PM#64
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

It is just semantic.

Call it a weapon "level", and when you get to level 3, you can use "X" weapon. THere .. it is a level.

More than one game has multiple types of levels (and call them so).

  hammarus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/10
Posts: 177

3/21/13 4:48:47 PM#65
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

I'm doing neither.  Just suggesting that its not cut and dried, by pointing out that the measurement system is and can be varied.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/21/13 4:50:19 PM#66
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

And then there's progression where it's you learning the game and it being built in such a way as to take it easy on you while you're still learning, such a progression system could have absolutely no levels and progression to be completely freeform (it could be story based, exploration based, crafting based, crafting in such a system would be all about experimenting to get the best items or the best possible not leveling a arbitrary level skill to unlock pwnboots of +50, etc).

 

The notion that progression = leveling is fundamentally flawed, leveling is just the simplest most rudimentary form of progression, progression is in itself evolution, the most obvious way to quantify evolution is with numbers but being obvious does not mean being good. The only reason people equate leveling with progression in RPG is because the original PC RPGs were at least inspired by D&D which used leveling as a metric for character progression but in D&D you can excuse this because it was already relatively hard to quantify leveling, if you added in a freeform evolution of character it would've made DMing damn near impossible but here's the thing we're not limited to Pen and Paper here, this is a medium where freeform evolution of a character is not only possible but would also be a massive improvement.

I would say that everything you just described is a level, not called a level, but is arguably the same thing. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/21/13 4:51:23 PM#67
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

I'm doing neither.  Just suggesting that its not cut and dried, by pointing out that the measurement system is and can be varied.

Maybe that is a  good explaination, I kind of like it.

If there is a measurement system of any kind there is a level. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2089

joie de vivre

3/21/13 4:51:51 PM#68

Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

3/21/13 4:54:50 PM#69

The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago.  Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master.  The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.

Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else.  How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....

  hammarus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/10
Posts: 177

3/21/13 5:03:01 PM#70
Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM

The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago.  Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master.  The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.

Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else.  How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....

Leveling was introduced with the birth of Mankind.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/21/13 5:04:31 PM#71
Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM

The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago.  Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master.  The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.

Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else.  How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....

I think I'll change my stance.  While I do think progression is very very important in MMO's and does make you feel more connected to your character.  It is what you do to gain those levels that can make you feel more connected to the actual world. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/21/13 5:06:08 PM#72
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/21/13 5:08:09 PM#73
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.

Class type levels, absolutely.  But the OP brought up UO which had a different level system.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/21/13 5:09:23 PM#74
Originally posted by Xobdnas

Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.

No, this is NOT why levels existed.

 

Do people seriously think this way?  maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.

 

Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?  

 

 

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2089

joie de vivre

3/21/13 5:10:46 PM#75


Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Xobdnas Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.
No, this is NOT why levels existed.

 

Do people seriously think this way?  maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.

 

Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?  

 

 


I'm not talking about what they were. A kinds of stuff in the universe was something else as one point or another. But here and now, this is what MMORPG lvls have become.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/21/13 5:22:33 PM#76
Originally posted by Xobdnas

 


Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Xobdnas Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.
No, this is NOT why levels existed.

 

 

Do people seriously think this way?  maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.

 

Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?  

 

 


 

I'm not talking about what they were. A kinds of stuff in the universe was something else as one point or another. But here and now, this is what MMORPG lvls have become.

so you are saying MMOs add levels, which in the average MMO takes a player 2 days to a week, just to increase longevity?

You could *easily* do a gear reset without leveling, some games do it every patch.

Levels exist because people like progression, plain and simple.  With new levels come new abilities, new builds,m and a power increase beyond simply gear.

Yes, you could do this without leveling but its still progression just the same.  And people like progression.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/21/13 5:24:07 PM#77
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by hammarus
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by GGrimm
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

I submit that any progress is leveling.

How would you have progression without some kind of level?

There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.

Class type levels, absolutely.  But the OP brought up UO which had a different level system.

EVE is a good example where the popular Leveling paradigm has been abandoned for a character skills progression arrangement. The other key decision was to decouple skills progression with in-game play. That creates a system where your character learns/progresses/improves without you doing anything in particular in-game, effectively eliminating the dreaded "level grind".  The player is freed to choose to play the game in whatever manner he/she thinks is actually FUN!

How is that not brilliant?

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/21/13 5:34:43 PM#78
Originally posted by GGrimm
 

EVE is a good example where the popular Leveling paradigm has been abandoned for a character skills progression arrangement. The other key decision was to decouple skills progression with in-game play. That creates a system where your character learns/progresses/improves without you do anything in particular in-game, effectively eliminating the dreaded "level grind".  The player is freed to choose to play the game in whatever manner he/she thinks is actually FUN!

How is that not brilliant?

While the EvE system has its merits, the drawback is you lose the immersion factor as well as the reward factor.  In EvE you don't earn your skills.  in a game like SWG to get good at using a pistol you had to actually use a pistol.  in eve you just have to log off and go to sleep.

In theory a skill based system should not be a grind because you should be rewarded for what you like to do (like to use a 2 hand sword?  youll get 2 hand sword skill).  This always ends up sounding better on paper than in game though.

 

  tupodawg999

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 571

3/21/13 5:59:30 PM#79

MMORPGs have progression to endgame aka levelling and endgame.

Some players only like the endgame. Some players like the levelling.

So how does a game maximize their playerbase?

Logically there are two options:

1) Fast leveling to endgame

2) Slow leveling to endgame

Option (1) was increasingly chosen by game devs over the last few years because the competitive types who prefer the endgame are competitive at forum pvp also but it *can't* logically work as has been proven again and again over the last few years because fast levelling in shallow worlds doesn't hold the levellers while the endgamers race to max level and then burn through content and move on to new games. The model fails at retaining both sets of players.

Option (2) can at least potentially hold onto the levellers (assuming the levelling content is done well) and holds the endgamers for the same amount of time as in option (1) (unless they quit before they get to max level).

Option (2) but with the ability for endgame type players with one max level character to start a new character already near to max level gives the best of both worlds. That way they only suffer (from their point of view) through the levelling process once.

 

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1169

3/21/13 6:00:09 PM#80

Leveling does not equal RPG. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who knows this.

Then again I'm sure the people who will try to refute this will also believe that Castlevania 2 was better than the Original Castlevania.

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