Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by cronius77
all i seriously hear in this thread is op and a few others are crying because they cannot go around and camp players in other realms because you have to flag for pvp or be in the end game zones for it. This game will do far better than any  all so great sandbox that released. Hell im willing to bet right now that this game sells more boxes alone than eve combined with all the rest of its full loot pvp garbage thats out there. OP seriously if you think this game would do better with how you are thinking it will be you are sadly dillusional. Themeparks outsale any sandbox games over here. Also you can blame games like darkfall and mortal using excuses for the devs not having funding or whatever but its not that trust me , its people dont want to be griefed when they are playing a game and trying to relax. They have a full large zone for all the pvp you wish , if you dont like it like that dont play its as simple as that. But coming here with this argument sandboxes are so great and finacially your claims have ZERO truth to them.

First off learn to phrase your ideas.

Second off paragraphs are your friend.

Third off learn to spell and brush up on your grammer while you're at it and learn which words actually exist in the english language.

Fourth off learn to construct coherent arguments.

Fifth off leave the fanboism at home.

Follow the above and someone might actually take the time to read everything you write and not just skim through it like an intellectual would through the twilight saga out of morbid curiosity.

I think you go off road and start attacking spelling and 'grammer' of posters when you run out of legitimate points of discussion but still..... lol!!

Maybe time to follow your own advice.

Originally posted by jfoytek

I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

 

Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

 

And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

Sadly, the road of the carebears is the way that attracts customers. It has to be a small company that will break the ice for the bigger investors with successfull sandbox game, before anyone is willing to invest in one.

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by ignore_me

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Originally posted by baphamet  

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Originally posted by doodphace   Themeparks are good, but a niche market.  

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  did you mean sandbox?

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No he meant that they are a niche market for those who lack the ability to self-direct.

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lack the ability or just don't like games like that? anyone who thinks theme parks are niche compared to sanbox are not living in reality.

 Theme Parks are accesibility models for those who need direction. It doesn't matter why you need it, it's still the main element of the design. You may be able to self-direct your activities but if you choose not to, then it's a wash.

It's easier to reference it this way than to try and be sensitive. I'm sure there is no statistical break down on "why do you choose to have your MMO experience so narrow and linear, is it because you're stupid?" If you happen to find that study I would love to see it.

Originally posted by Fondel

Originally posted by jfoytek

I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

 

Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

 

And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

Sadly, the road of the carebears is the way that attracts customers. It has to be a small company that will break the ice for the bigger investors with successfull sandbox game, before anyone is willing to invest in one.

I really have to wonder who the people are who like to use "carebear" to describe that inferior category of player that they, most asuredly, are not part of.

I'm not going to click on your names and make a guess... you're both 13 right?

I applaude OP, he is right, they just use the brand ESO to lure some players like they do with SWTOR and Star Trek, even if these games sucks hard. They are AAA titles so they are forced to make carebear games to attract more kiddos to cover expenses.

But don't worry, lots of sandbox are in the making made by indie companies and free from these crappy lobbies, the Repopulation, Embers of caerus, Black desert, Pathfinder, Gloria Victis, etc... this year will be remembered as the year of sandbox, so who cares about ESO?

Just wait and see mate. :)

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by cronius77
all i seriously hear in this thread is op and a few others are crying because they cannot go around and camp players in other realms because you have to flag for pvp or be in the end game zones for it. This game will do far better than any  all so great sandbox that released. Hell im willing to bet right now that this game sells more boxes alone than eve combined with all the rest of its full loot pvp garbage thats out there. OP seriously if you think this game would do better with how you are thinking it will be you are sadly dillusional. Themeparks outsale any sandbox games over here. Also you can blame games like darkfall and mortal using excuses for the devs not having funding or whatever but its not that trust me , its people dont want to be griefed when they are playing a game and trying to relax. They have a full large zone for all the pvp you wish , if you dont like it like that dont play its as simple as that. But coming here with this argument sandboxes are so great and finacially your claims have ZERO truth to them.

First off learn to phrase your ideas.

Second off paragraphs are your friend.

Third off learn to spell and brush up on your grammar while you're at it and learn which words actually exist in the english language.

Fourth off learn to construct coherent arguments.

Fifth off leave the fanboism at home.

Follow the above and someone might actually take the time to read everything you write and not just skim through it like an intellectual would through the twilight saga out of morbid curiosity.

 God man, don't make it so easy... glass houses and all...

Sorry, was in a rush, fixed it now.

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by SysFail

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by SysFail

I doubt there's many souls that didn't try out WoW on release, it's hype was pretty spectacular, but i bet many like myself returned after a few months to the games they may have left behind.

Thats funny, sub trends show the exact opposite.

I can only go by personal experience, supply the stats if you've got them.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

Notice the significant drop in most titles at the same time, with pretty much none of them ever gaining subs again. For point of reference judge it by the same line as Eq2, they did launch within a month of one another.

Hats off to EVE, they're showing how to develop an MMO over time, where as titles like Conan and Warhammer are showing that if you bring a piece of shit to the market, your get hammered for it.

Also interesting to see second life, a sandbox title doing well also.

Originally posted by Rhazmuz

Todd Howard overseas this project as well, and if he has given his approval, then that is all I need. 

 

 

 

 

Provide a link to this please, or else it just looks like a lie.

Todd works for Bethesda and does not even play mmorpg games. he has said that he does not enjoy mmorpg or much online gaming in general. so either show some facts or stop spreading lies.

Originally posted by SysFail

Hats off to EVE, they're showing how to develop an MMO over time, where as titles like Conan and Warhammer are showing that if you bring a piece of shit to the market, your get hammered for it.

Arguable. EVE has 2 factors in its favor that most others do not, namely PLEX and how its used in its economy, and a singular progression system that all but forces you to have multiple accounts if you actually want to effectively take part in multiple facets of gameplay in a timely manner. By all accounts (unfortunetly I can no longer find the link) EVE has one of the highest multi account playerbases of mmo players. The last numbers I say but it upwards of 30% of its playerbase have 2 accounts or more, which considering its low system demands makes a lot of sense.

Originally posted by Zairu

Provide a link to this please, or else it just looks like a lie.

 

Todd works for Bethesda and does not even play mmorpg games. he has said that he does not enjoy mmorpg or much online gaming in general. so either show some facts or stop spreading lies.

Considering that the studio developing this is in the same building and by all accounts sharing information its entirely plausable. Not that its really a boon considering just how poor the combat and AI systems have always been in the TES series. With the strong enphasis on "learn everything" I am getting more and more feeling that this is another TSW.

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by DAS1337

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Originally posted by Doogiehowser

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Originally posted by SysFail

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Originally posted by Doogiehowser You are right OP considering that how successful sandbox MMOS are and how much money studios make from sandbox titles. Investors are foolish to put their money into ESO project which is clearly a themepark MMO. I mean who would want to dump their hard earned money just like that? Fools i say.

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Yup, EA got is spot on with the star wars IP and other companies are leaping to repeat the same model with well known IP's.

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What is hilarious is that EA probably makes more money with a  failed  themepark MMO like SWTOR in comparison to all sandbox MMOS of which there is only one successful title EVE ONLINE and which is not even a fantasy / high fantasy title. lolz!!

---

I'm guessing you are very young.  

 

 

Ultima Online's servers have been open for the past 15+ years.  It was highly successful for a long time, and considering people are still playing, it must be successful enough for EA to continue to make content for it.

 

EQ was a bit of a sandbox hybrid, but I do remember it being a very popular and successful game.

 

SWG was very popular, and from everything that I've read (I didn't play it), the game was destroyed by the company who made it, not because it wasn't good.

 

You mentioned EVE.  And that's not even a high fantasy game, which we know is the most popular setting of the two.

 

Darkfall, Unholy Wars has actually fixed a massive amount of issues with the old game.  The original was not a success at all, in any way.  However, I think Aventurine will see a fairly large influx in population once the game leaves beta.  It may never see 200,000 players, but I do believe it will be enough to turn a profit.

 

As far as TESO goes..  

 

I believe they have a lot of cool features that translate well in an MMO.  I however believe that they are suffering from an identity crisis.  I believe their developers have a lot of ideas that don't fit will together, and they are forcing them to work no matter what. Things like Megaserver, destroying the community.  Phasing and instancing that are making what you do only a part of the overall picture in the world.  Land locking and communication locking factions from 1-50, then opening that up at 50.  Which doesn't make any sense at all.  On top of that, when you go into those areas, you will only be seeing NPC's, not opposing players.  They added 3 factions, all which don't exist, then grouped warring races as allies, just to fit in 3 faction PvP, which doesn't make sense.  They allow you to group with enemies after 50, and in a game where you are supposed to be killing those players, it kills any sort of realm pride or hatred.  They went against the IP''s sandbox direction and made classes, as well as refused to add housing in the open world.  

 

This game could have been the best of all of the sandbox MMO's.  With hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players playing for years to come.  Hell, their single player games have people playing for years.  Imagine if you could live in the world, where your progress actually meant something.  

 

They are pissing on the very people who made their game so popular.

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first of all, ES games are not sandbox's, they are theme park style more than anything with some sandbox elements.

secondly, the guy you quoted is actually correct regardless of what age he is.

IIRC EQ was the most popular MMO as far as subs pre-wow era.... because of its themepark elements that other games didn't really have at the time.

even when SWG came out it was still not as successful as EQ even though it was starwars.

i am not saying themeparks are better (it depends on personal preference) but they definitely attract more people.

sandbox games are cool but only attract a niche group of players.

that is why you wont see a company sink millions of dollars into the development of a pure sandbox game or you wont see a major IP like ES be made into one either.

SWG was the last one and it likely will never happen again unless a sandbox comes out that we have not seen before that attracts the masses.

Did you just seriously see what you typed?  

Just because a game has one or two elements of themepark and a hundred elements of sandbox, does not make it a themepark.  You're view is clearly skewed by some sort of bizzaro world bias that no one can actually figure out other than yourself.

A game where you can go anywhere and do anything...

a game where you can make your own home in...

a game that is modded, and modded heavily...

a game where you aren't pushed down any path, at any time...

a game not restricted by levels, according to where you go or what you can do...

a game where you can never finish the storyline and still be just as strong as someone who did...

a game where your actions determine your skills, not some arbitrary number of experience that levels you up...

a game where the world actually revolves around itself, not you...

I'm going to shorten this because it's going to go on for a long time.

a game where there are quests... even though you don't have to start them, finsih them or do them in a certain order

Oh yeah, and the most obvious themeoark element.. It's a game designed by someone?

Right, it's easy to spout off at the mouth about something, but it's a whole lot harder to actually explain it.  Right now, you are no different to me than some high school kid telling me that I'm a dummy, and then running off to his friends.  Prove you have any idea about what you are saying and that opinion may change.

Oh yeah.

Bazinga =P

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Zairu

Provide a link to this please, or else it just looks like a lie.

 

Todd works for Bethesda and does not even play mmorpg games. he has said that he does not enjoy mmorpg or much online gaming in general. so either show some facts or stop spreading lies.

Considering that the studio developing this is in the same building and by all accounts sharing information its entirely plausable. Not that its really a boon considering just how poor the combat and AI systems have always been in the TES series. With the strong enphasis on "learn everything" I am getting more and more feeling that this is another TSW.

there is nothing at all in your post to verify his involvement. not even much logic tbh.

if you look online yourself, instead of speculating on mmorpg.com, you would learn he does not even like mmorpgs and has never spoken on eso officially.

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by SysFail

Hats off to EVE, they're showing how to develop an MMO over time, where as titles like Conan and Warhammer are showing that if you bring a piece of shit to the market, your get hammered for it.

Arguable. EVE has 2 factors in its favor that most others do not, namely PLEX and how its used in its economy, and a singular progression system that all but forces you to have multiple accounts if you actually want to effectively take part in multiple facets of gameplay in a timely manner. By all accounts (unfortunetly I can no longer find the link) EVE has one of the highest multi account playerbases of mmo players. The last numbers I say but it upwards of 30% of its playerbase have 2 accounts or more, which considering its low system demands makes a lot of sense.

One thing that is clear from that chart however, is that there is most definitely room for a AAA sandbox on the market, it won't hit the millions, but it will certainly pay for its self with profit to boot and will have a higher retention rate than a themepark, just because of the nature of the sandbox player.

Originally posted by SysFail

Originally posted by doodphace

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by SysFail

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by jfoytek

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by jfoytek

SWTOR at its peak has 1.7M subs its now below 1M over a 700K drop...  But yes thats still alot of subscriptions, minor problem the game costed over 400M to make meaning it hasnt turned a profit yet... and Runescapes 8.5M subscriptions at peak wont be touched by SWTOR anytime soon nor ever!

 

The $400 mil rumour is just that, a rumour. SWTOR probably still has about 1 mil subscribers, based on server loads and general activity. Each of those paying $15 a month.  That combined with the box sales and cash shop sales would have more than paid for the development costs by now.

SWG had less than 200k subscribers by the time they tried the NGE which everyone blames for the death of the game, but really the game was dying well before that.

Just face it, even the most popular sandbox - EVE - cannot compete with one of the most generic and bland themeparks - SWTOR.  Why would people throw money at that? When they can make something bland and generic with a good IP and get SWTOR numbers?

SWTOR is now free to play and they do not say if the remaining active subscriptions are paying so its very likely a large chunk of that remaining subscriber base is paying 0....  And no the 400M is not a rumor

And FYI it would take 1M Subs at 15 per month for 24 months to = 360M  So two years of Sub fee's at the 1M active sub level to break even

 1) It was a rumour. It has never been confirmed anywhere.

2) Most of the players are subscribing, the game is set up that way. If you don't subscribe at max level (which is still very active) then you end up paying more than a subscription.

3) They had about 2 mil to 1.7 mil subs for the first 6 months. Add the box fee on top. So yeah no.  

 

For the record, I don't play the game or have any interest in it. But if you think it is unprofitable you are incredibly delusional. Go log into the game, its free to look at how busy it is.

EA's shares took a 50% loss just after the release of SWTOR, coincidence or not?

 Shares are based on expectations. Not comparitive profit.

Just to chime in on this, although SWTOR flopped in the sense of coming nowhere near WoW, it does have more paying subscribers than EVE. Money is indeed with Themeparks. Rift is another example of a themepark (well made one at that) having more paying subs than EVE.

Eve has done remarkedly well for what it is, its freedom of choice is fantastic, but the spaceship instead of a toon is very niche indeed.

Take the same model that EvE uses, but apply it to a world with toons and i've no doubt it would be a phenomenal success.

Its called SWG...its didnt fair so wall, esp pre NGE.

Originally posted by jfoytek

I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

 

Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

 

And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

YEAH!

Because "carebears" don't deserve to game, I mean if you can't jack someone up while they are fighting a bear and take all their crap then why game at all!

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Fondel

Originally posted by jfoytek

I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

 

Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

 

And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

Sadly, the road of the carebears is the way that attracts customers. It has to be a small company that will break the ice for the bigger investors with successfull sandbox game, before anyone is willing to invest in one.

I really have to wonder who the people are who like to use "carebear" to describe that inferior category of player that they, most asuredly, are not part of.

I'm not going to click on your names and make a guess... you're both 13 right?

Who cares about the terms? Everyone knows which game type we are talking about. THEMEPARKS. the word Carebear just describes the whole scene so perfectly. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Zairu

there is nothing at all in your post to verify his involvement. not even much logic tbh.

if you look online yourself, instead of speculating on mmorpg.com, you would learn he does not even like mmorpgs and has never spoken on eso officially.

 

Do you have any idea how an office works? The sheer idea that an email has not been passed back and forth, or advice is absurd when they work that closely together. Its almost like saying the dev teams that made Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas did not talk either.

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by doodphace

 

Themeparks are good, but a niche market.

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did you mean sandbox?

If you read my entire post, I obviously ment sandbox

Originally posted by SysFail

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by SysFail

Hats off to EVE, they're showing how to develop an MMO over time, where as titles like Conan and Warhammer are showing that if you bring a piece of shit to the market, your get hammered for it.

Arguable. EVE has 2 factors in its favor that most others do not, namely PLEX and how its used in its economy, and a singular progression system that all but forces you to have multiple accounts if you actually want to effectively take part in multiple facets of gameplay in a timely manner. By all accounts (unfortunetly I can no longer find the link) EVE has one of the highest multi account playerbases of mmo players. The last numbers I say but it upwards of 30% of its playerbase have 2 accounts or more, which considering its low system demands makes a lot of sense.

One thing that is clear from that chart however, is that there is most definitely room for a AAA sandbox on the market, it won't hit the millions, but it will certainly pay for its self with profit to boot and will have a higher retention rate than a themepark, just because of the nature of the sandbox player.

Why wont it hit the millions???  Give this Sandbox a powerful IP like Star Wars or in this case TES and it sure could!

Heck if the original SWG was rereleased!!!  I bet it could come damn near the million mark!

And before you say but it only hit 500K the first time .....

This is true but that was then there were less gamers playing MMO's and WoW was the fresh new shiny toy....  WoW is no longer so shinny and people want a game just like SWG!

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Zairu

there is nothing at all in your post to verify his involvement. not even much logic tbh.

if you look online yourself, instead of speculating on mmorpg.com, you would learn he does not even like mmorpgs and has never spoken on eso officially.

 

Do you have any idea how an office works? The sheer idea that an email has not been passed back and forth, or advice is absurd when they work that closely together. Its almost like saying the dev teams that made Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas did not talk either.

nice speculation.

also, I never said that he never once spoke about it within the company, in passing, but not as a working member of Zenimax Online, which is not the same thing as Zenimax or Bethesda. If it was all the same thing, they would not have seperate names to distinguish the different sections of the sister companies.

and no. i don't think the guys for FONV talked to the FO3 team very much if at all. had they been close, FONV might not be such a horrible game in comparison. (but that is another topic. the games are not even comparable in terms of quality).