Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by jfoytek

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Best PvP game of all time, DAoC. ESO will have a focused PvP map where all PvP happens to help push the game to epic large scale wars. You like PvP this is the game for you. Let the PvEers have their space to.

Sorry but I disagree best pvp games:

1) Shadowbane

2) Ultima Online Pre Trammel

3) Wurm Online (If you can get past the lack of animation)

4) DaoC

And I would say "no" lineage 2.

I would count Lineage 2 as the second best PvP I have played but I am sure if we started a thread between DAoC and Lineage 2 for who had the best PvP it would be a long fight =) and one I would not want to be the OP to.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Skooma2

Before:  1/3 world pve map.  Get to level 50 and pvp in Cyrodil or roll an alt.

Now:  100% world pve map.  Get to level 50 and a) pvp in Cyrodiil, b) roll an alt, c) explore other alliance areas.

Before:  Disappointed TES fan vowing not to buy the game.

Now:  Going to pre-order as soon as it can be done.

That's a simple way to put it and one of the reasons why I agree with OP, it is a brillant idea ~ although I'm not sure I personally like it.  I would rather pick a race then a faction BUT this compromise is respectful and I will be supporting the game.

I hope that in the future they add PvP objectives into these areas and perhaps even have a faction-switch questline down the road.  This game is starting to feel more like a TES spin-off and less like a DAoC knock-off (even though I think this idea is closely related to DAoC's co-op servers).

SWToR launched with very set races for their 2 factions and added ways to unlock races for the other faction. Maybe they will do that here.

"No agitators and race mixers here: When you are leveling up and going about your business in your land, at no point will you see anyone from the opposing faction. No one gets flagged for pvp or anything like that. Like I stated before, enemies exploring your territory will be in a “their faction only” copy of it. Really this is just to appease people who only want to explore the game without sacrificing the segregation of the factions."

This is a HUGE dissapointment to me. I mean its a major game killer to me. I would consider myself a ES addict. My love for the games knows no bounds. This change however, makes zero sense to me. Its fine if you want pvp in a seperate zone. We've had that before and it works, for the most part. But not having that faction to faction interaction thoughout the world just makes it lonely, stale and uninspiriring. I dont see why they cant give people under lvl 50 pvp immunity in these zones. Let the 50s duke it out in the zones if they want to.

Ahhh man, so upset with this. W/e Jormag is spawning, time to kill him for the millionth time.

Originally posted by Sovrath

But from the sounds of the more vocal pvp players, It really didn't seem like they were excited over "elder scrolls" so much as the 3 way faction pvp.

That's the truth.  They gave us a hard time for criticizing the game and now they are freaking out worse than we ever did.  We just wanted more TES in ESO and yet they tried to make us feel like outcasts.

Originally posted by monarc333

"No agitators and race mixers here: When you are leveling up and going about your business in your land, at no point will you see anyone from the opposing faction. No one gets flagged for pvp or anything like that. Like I stated before, enemies exploring your territory will be in a “their faction only” copy of it. Really this is just to appease people who only want to explore the game without sacrificing the segregation of the factions."

This is a HUGE dissapointment to me. I mean its a major game killer to me. I would consider myself a ES addict. My love for the games knows no bounds. This change however, makes zero sense to me. Its fine if you want pvp in a seperate zone. We've had that before and it works, for the most part. But not having that faction to faction interaction thoughout the world just makes it lonely, stale and uninspiriring. I dont see why they cant give people under lvl 50 pvp immunity in these zones. Let the 50s duke it out in the zones if they want to.

Ahhh man, so upset with this. W/e Jormag is spawning, time to kill him for the millionth time.

The DAoC model is about the war being focused on one map. This makes for deeper more epic battles. Take the 15 gourps spread out all over the place and put them on one map and now you have a war. Thats fun.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Sovrath

But from the sounds of the more vocal pvp players, It really didn't seem like they were excited over "elder scrolls" so much as the 3 way faction pvp.

That's the truth.  They gave us a hard time for criticizing the game and now they are freaking out worse than we ever did.  We just wanted more TES in ESO and yet they tried to make us feel like outcasts.

You really do enjoy this "us vs. them" pseudo-drama in your head don't you? The square pegs in the square holes and the round ones in the round holes... The fact is that I'm not aware of a single ex-DAoC player here who didn't also enjoy TES. You've just always attempted to polarize based on your personal wishes for the game.

I'm actually laughing my ass off reading some of you claiming victory because they have given you an instanced version of the other zones to explore at 50, where you will see only other 50's from your faction PVEing and will continue to have no interaction with the other alliances (12:30 of the video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrflK6An6Y&list=UUpu8dLHavjMi1a5jgT9ycMA

Your complaints about the ESO implementation of TES have been many and still continue today in other threads "it's still not TES" etc. Now you're acting as if an instance for level 50 solo exploreres is a vindication for your many complaints...

The game continues to look great and the necessary alliance segregation is alive and well...I love it.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jfoytek

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Best PvP game of all time, DAoC. ESO will have a focused PvP map where all PvP happens to help push the game to epic large scale wars. You like PvP this is the game for you. Let the PvEers have their space to.

Sorry but I disagree best pvp games:

1) Shadowbane

2) Ultima Online Pre Trammel

3) Wurm Online (If you can get past the lack of animation)

4) DaoC

Shadowbane died so fast I am not sure it can count. As for the others... thats not this game. You want open world PvP everywhere, go find a game that does that. This game wanted large scale PvP battles, not little battles everywhere. Also its a model that lets PvEers have their fun as well. Not trying to use the broken flag system game 2 and 3 uses on your list. Pure PvEers hate the flag system. Its to easy to force someone to flag who does not want to PvE. As for the order you put the list great but every PvP game that has come out in the end gets compaired on every forum to DAoC. Cant say the same for your top 3 lol.

Well I am sorry to break this too you but PvP really began in UO pre Trammel, every old school long term hardcore pvper that was alive then and still plays MMO's hails from UO and will look back at the days of the GM mage as the pinnacle of most of there pvp....  And Shadowbane was a masterpiece a game completely geared toward pvp but hype dragged its playerbase away to WoW and SWG.... 

DaoC ended up the refuge of the pvper as there wasnt much else to play, besides Mortal Online and Darkfall who I give them credit for trying both had some great concepts both were plagued with bugs...

And Wurm is just the unknown Gem, how a game the quality of wurm has gone by with so little public knowledge of its existence is just a shame!

Ok so here are some of my questions about faction lock.

Let's say person A is level 50 and has unlocked Faction 1-3-2 in that order.

and person B has unlocked Faction 1-2

Will A and B be able to play together on Faction 2 if it is the third unlocked faction for A?

I ask this because sounds to me like there is a loot discrepancy between second faction  unlock and third faction  unlock loot.

 Once you make the choice the entire zone opens up to your character to explore. Matt did say that the loot you will get in the other zones will be really good, and after finishing the 2nd, you unlock the third. When you unlock the third zone that will give some of the best loot in the game.

can be found here http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/7227

Next Will person A exclude person B from grouping/partying because they haven't unlocked factions?

Can see it now "LFG for 3rd faction party"

Either way I am going to try the game. I think that is why most of us are here on the forums talking about it before it has even gone live.

Originally posted by mightyjoxer

Ok so here are some of my questions about faction lock.

Let's say person A is level 50 and has unlocked Faction 1-3-2 in that order.

and person B has unlocked Faction 1-2

Will A and B be able to play together on Faction 2 if it is the third unlocked faction for A?

I ask this because sounds to me like there is a loot discrepancy between second faction  unlock and third faction  unlock loot.

 Once you make the choice the entire zone opens up to your character to explore. Matt did say that the loot you will get in the other zones will be really good, and after finishing the 2nd, you unlock the third. When you unlock the third zone that will give some of the best loot in the game.

can be found here http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/7227

Next Will person A exclude person B from grouping/partying because they haven't unlocked factions?

Can see it now "LFG for 3rd faction party"

Either way I am going to try the game. I think that is why most of us are here on the forums talking about it before it has even gone live.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrflK6An6Y&list=UUpu8dLHavjMi1a5jgT9ycMA 12:30 of the video.

Originally posted by jfoytek

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jfoytek

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Best PvP game of all time, DAoC. ESO will have a focused PvP map where all PvP happens to help push the game to epic large scale wars. You like PvP this is the game for you. Let the PvEers have their space to.

Sorry but I disagree best pvp games:

1) Shadowbane

2) Ultima Online Pre Trammel

3) Wurm Online (If you can get past the lack of animation)

4) DaoC

Shadowbane died so fast I am not sure it can count. As for the others... thats not this game. You want open world PvP everywhere, go find a game that does that. This game wanted large scale PvP battles, not little battles everywhere. Also its a model that lets PvEers have their fun as well. Not trying to use the broken flag system game 2 and 3 uses on your list. Pure PvEers hate the flag system. Its to easy to force someone to flag who does not want to PvE. As for the order you put the list great but every PvP game that has come out in the end gets compaired on every forum to DAoC. Cant say the same for your top 3 lol.

Well I am sorry to break this too you but PvP really began in UO pre Trammel, every old school long term hardcore pvper that was alive then and still plays MMO's hails from UO and will look back at the days of the GM mage as the pinnacle of most of there pvp....  And Shadowbane was a masterpiece a game completely geared toward pvp but hype dragged its playerbase away to WoW and SWG.... 

DaoC ended up the refuge of the pvper as there wasnt much else to play, besides Mortal Online and Darkfall who I give them credit for trying both had some great concepts both were plagued with bugs...

And Wurm is just the unknown Gem, how a game the quality of wurm has gone by with so little public knowledge of its existence is just a shame!

If you say so. UO may have been first but Everquest is what made MMOs big as EQ1 broke all the records for online gaming in its time. I know I was online when they broke 500'000 online playing at the same time record. See we can do this all day lol. UO may have had PvP but DAoC gave in meaning and drive. Wana keep going? 

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

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Originally posted by immodium

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Originally posted by Livnthedream
Where is the almighty lore push for perma death that every TES game that has come before has had?

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When the lore push to include the option to save your progress at any given time, like previous TES games.

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Oh I see, mechanics that eliminate things you do not like due to impracticality are ok, but mechanics that enforce things you don't are not. I absolutely love how "lore friendly" gets used as just another term for "something I do not like". The absurdity of the fanatics will never cease.

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Originally posted by jfoytek

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Originally posted by Sovrath

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Originally posted by jfoytek
This is a crock,  Every faction should have resources more prevalent in there area and we should have to take risks to enter there area to harvest these resources to make the best crafted items....

They should see us clear as day and make every attempt to kill us....

Our deaths should warp us back to our home land far from where we were killed....  And a certain amount of items in your inventory like atleast resources should drop and be lootable....

This is how you create good open world pvp that translates into never ending end game content...

But no lets Instance copy these worlds and only allow access to certain kingdoms so all the PvE carebears can have lots of content!

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True but since when are the elder scrolls games hardcore pvp games?

All of this just sounds to me like some pvp players were just hoping to have a good pvp game regardless of where the IP was before.

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Since when are Elder Scrolls games Multiplayer?  Its an MMO why does the PvE crowd hold the rights to everything? 

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PvP has definitely ruined this game for me, though. So chalk up another PvP-centric game that I will, in all likelihood, avoid.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Sovrath

But from the sounds of the more vocal pvp players, It really didn't seem like they were excited over "elder scrolls" so much as the 3 way faction pvp.

That's the truth.  They gave us a hard time for criticizing the game and now they are freaking out worse than we ever did.  We just wanted more TES in ESO and yet they tried to make us feel like outcasts.

You really do enjoy this "us vs. them" pseudo-drama in your head don't you? The square pegs in the square holes and the round ones in the round holes... The fact is that I'm not aware of a single ex-DAoC player here who didn't also enjoy TES. You've just always attempted to polarize based on your personal wishes for the game.

I'm actually laughing my ass off reading some of you claiming victory because they have given you an instanced version of the other zones to explore at 50, where you will see only other 50's from your faction PVEing and will continue to have no interaction with the other alliances (12:30 of the video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrflK6An6Y&list=UUpu8dLHavjMi1a5jgT9ycMA

Your complaints about the ESO implementation of TES have been many and still continue today in other threads "it's still not TES" etc. Now you're acting as if an instance for level 50 solo exploreres is a vindication for your many complaints...

The game continues to look great and the necessary alliance segregation is alive and well...I love it.

I didn't claim victory, you can get snappy all you want.  I'm not gonna get pulled into pseudo-drama in a thread because of the thoughts of my head.  I asked for a way to explore and they gave "us" that.  As stated above, I didn't get what I want BUT I respect the compromise and creativity of Zenimax.

I feel I will be repeating this alot.

Elder Scroll is a single player Role playing game with a sophisticated AI that attempts to react realistically to your decisions.  Yes, good NPCs can attack you and you can cause strife with NPCs and steal from them.  They are programmed to react in a way that does not break your emmersion (well they are at least attempted to be programmed that way).

In an MMO, you can not replace these nPCs with PCs. it doesn't translate. Most MMO players have abandoned the RPG element and don't role play at all. PVP is "death match" to them.  This was not the case in the first, more open, rpgs as the only people who initially attempted to play mmos back in the day were those of us who loved single player rpgs.  So the few minority of us who would love to see more sandbox areas need to realize that the reality of an open world pvp would be one whre most of the games resources have to force people to role play and won't do a good job of it, just creating an unpleasant place to do role playing game stuff.  

I do like Elder Scroll solution. Essentially it makes sense. As i've said a billion tims, open world pvp is the most unemerrsive thing in the world. Unless its call to duty, it doesnt make sense for a non battlefield area (an area that is mainly focused on open warfare) to have people openly attack people while doing everyday adventuring. 

I think it's a good thing though, because it does open up the whole world to the PVE'ers.

All the explorer type RPG'ers that want to wander the entire world solo can do that now.

I can imagine some pretty cool story line type PVE stuff at endgame in the other faction zones.

It also leaves the RVR stuff intact.

The only people I can see this not appeasing are the ones that want a truly sandbox type world, where you can group/guild with any person from any race.

While I do like that in some games (I'm loving EVE right now), I think I prefer the way they're doing it in this game.

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

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Originally posted by immodium

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Originally posted by Livnthedream
Where is the almighty lore push for perma death that every TES game that has come before has had?

---

When the lore push to include the option to save your progress at any given time, like previous TES games.

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Oh I see, mechanics that eliminate things you do not like due to impracticality are ok, but mechanics that enforce things you don't are not. I absolutely love how "lore friendly" gets used as just another term for "something I do not like". The absurdity of the fanatics will never cease.

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Are you serious? TES games previously were Single Player RPGs. TES:O is an MMORPG. Previous TES titles allowed for a player to save (not to be confused with logging out), because they could die. I cannot think of one MMO that allows a player to save their game at any point in time and thus load a previously saved game. Do you?

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i think the fact that you could save in TES single player games made its permadeath not really permadeath, so the argument is invalid.

personally i think its a terrible idea for any themepark to feature permadeath.

i can see it in a sandbox game that features items that are almost all exclusively craftable.

but in a themepark style of game that is mostly gear driven, absolutely not.

Its my understanding that it isn't; 

before 1/3 content

after all content.

Each faction land is still broken up into lvl areas (1-10, 11-22, etc). As a 50 lvl you won't be doing any of the content the 1-49 players of that faction have done.  I assume the mobs, ie bunnies and bandits will be 50 lvl.  Then there will be some sort of 50 lvl stuff to do.

If you want to see all the content you will still have to make alts.

So congrats you made it to 50. You ran through the hoops and can now go to a 'pretend' clone of the actual faction zone, where you get to see what trees and bunnies look like on the other side of the fence.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

PvP has definitely ruined this game for me, though. So chalk up another PvP-centric game that I will, in all likelihood, avoid.

I think there's plenty of argument that the game is split evenly between PvP/PvE, with the lions share of the features likely coming down on the PvE side of the fence. But that remains to be truly seen until we can play it ourselves. None the less, best of luck finding a game that you'll enjoy (no sarcasm).

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

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Originally posted by immodium

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Originally posted by Livnthedream
Where is the almighty lore push for perma death that every TES game that has come before has had?

---

When the lore push to include the option to save your progress at any given time, like previous TES games.

---

Oh I see, mechanics that eliminate things you do not like due to impracticality are ok, but mechanics that enforce things you don't are not. I absolutely love how "lore friendly" gets used as just another term for "something I do not like". The absurdity of the fanatics will never cease.

---

Are you serious? TES games previously were Single Player RPGs. TES:O is an MMORPG. Previous TES titles allowed for a player to save (not to be confused with logging out), because they could die. I cannot think of one MMO that allows a player to save their game at any point in time and thus load a previously saved game. Do you?

---

 

i think the fact that you could save in TES single player games made its permadeath not really permadeath, so the argument is invalid.

personally i think its a terrible idea for any themepark to feature permadeath.

i can see it in a sandbox game that features items that are almost all exclusively craftable.

but in a themepark style of game that is mostly gear driven, absolutely not.

Sorry but they stated the best gear would be crafted not looted.... So this is a game that feature the best gear exclusively from crafters :)  one of the few things I am really keen on at this point!

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Sovrath

But from the sounds of the more vocal pvp players, It really didn't seem like they were excited over "elder scrolls" so much as the 3 way faction pvp.

That's the truth.  They gave us a hard time for criticizing the game and now they are freaking out worse than we ever did.  We just wanted more TES in ESO and yet they tried to make us feel like outcasts.

You really do enjoy this "us vs. them" pseudo-drama in your head don't you? The square pegs in the square holes and the round ones in the round holes... The fact is that I'm not aware of a single ex-DAoC player here who didn't also enjoy TES. You've just always attempted to polarize based on your personal wishes for the game.

I'm actually laughing my ass off reading some of you claiming victory because they have given you an instanced version of the other zones to explore at 50, where you will see only other 50's from your faction PVEing and will continue to have no interaction with the other alliances (12:30 of the video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrflK6An6Y&list=UUpu8dLHavjMi1a5jgT9ycMA

Your complaints about the ESO implementation of TES have been many and still continue today in other threads "it's still not TES" etc. Now you're acting as if an instance for level 50 solo exploreres is a vindication for your many complaints...

The game continues to look great and the necessary alliance segregation is alive and well...I love it.

I didn't claim victory, you can get snappy all you want.  I'm not gonna get pulled into pseudo-drama in a thread because of the thoughts of my head.  I asked for a way to explore and they gave "us" that.  As stated above, I didn't get what I want BUT I respect the compromise and creativity of Zenimax.

Now I feel the real hate is snowing.  I may be a narcissistic smart-ass but at least I have the curiosity of being civil.

"That's the truth.  They gave us a hard time for criticizing the game and now they are freaking out worse than we ever did.  We just wanted more TES in ESO and yet they tried to make us feel like outcasts."

Let me see if have it straight... derogatory exagerations made about an anonymous "they" is civil, but specifics directed at the individual who made the remarks is not?

Thanks for clearing that up for me.