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News & Features Discussion  » Shroud of the Avatar: Garriott Opines: 'Most game designers really just suck.'

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61 posts found
  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

3/20/13 11:08:17 AM#41

You can hate Lord British for all you want folks, but you can't dispute what he said in this article.

Its blunt, arrogant and honest, but its also completely true and sums up last decade of mainstream gaming REAL WELL.

 

And I'll judge his game when it comes out - I loved everything in Ultima franchise and even liked Tabula Rasa(which had one problem - it was released about a year too early imo), so I am willing to give him a chance, no matter his personality

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  Hekate27

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 42

3/20/13 11:13:46 AM#42

I suspect that RG might be speaking the truth but without the media savvy to realise that his words will be taken in some parts out of context and in other ways for the arrogance that they show.  I mean  this man does have some delusions of grandeur, he changed his name recently to add "De Cayeux" to the end of his name.  Bless him he really does want to live in a medieval world though he also paid to go into space which I am sure many would do if they could afford it.

There is truth in the core of his words many of the early designers had been playing PnP rpg's for many years had lived with visions and story creation so that by the time they were making games for computers they were already steeped in a system of creation, I suspect that many of the newer generation grow up playing computer games and perhaps dreaming of what they would like to do but that is very different from actually creating something, it is playing someone elses ideas.  To the extent many of the new young designers  do not go through the apprenticeship of World and story design that the old designers went through.

 

Perhaps there needs to be a resurgence of PnP rpg's.

Do what thou wilt, and harm ye none. - Witches Rede

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 11:18:33 AM#43
Originally posted by SlickShoes
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.

Are you really a member here and asking this question? MMORPG.com forums are PvP forums.

 Actually no I didnt know, im new...guess I better go gear up.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 11:23:56 AM#44
Originally posted by DJMantiss

Richard is good at the story and lore, for him to claim he has any ability to innovate is silly. Tabula Rasa was his worst mistake and that was dead in beta/alpha. A good deal of us in that beta just laughed at the horrible game-play and called it before it even released.

 1. You just said Garriott is not innovative based on ONE game and a game that was far different than any other MMO at the time just because you didnt like it?!?!

not that I need to continue but...

2. This big egotistical man that as you say, is good at story and lore is having TRACY HICKMAN writing the story for the new game...yeah...Hickman the best selling author...the man behind a ton of best selling Drangonlance novels and the Death Gate Cycle series.

You just proved the point...people dont judge a game based on its ideas...they base it on if they "like" it or not...and that is why the genre has been stagnant with the same old crap for years now.

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

3/20/13 11:25:26 AM#45
Originally posted by Hekate27

I suspect that RG might be speaking the truth but without the media savvy to realise that his words will be taken in some parts out of context and in other ways for the arrogance that they show.  I mean  this man does have some delusions of grandeur, he changed his name recently to add "De Cayeux" to the end of his name.  Bless him he really does want to live in a medieval world though he also paid to go into space which I am sure many would do if they could afford it.

There is truth in the core of his words many of the early designers had been playing PnP rpg's for many years had lived with visions and story creation so that by the time they were making games for computers they were already steeped in a system of creation, I suspect that many of the newer generation grow up playing computer games and perhaps dreaming of what they would like to do but that is very different from actually creating something, it is playing someone elses ideas.  To the extent many of the new young designers  do not go through the apprenticeship of World and story design that the old designers went through.

 

Perhaps there needs to be a resurgence of PnP rpg's.

I have worked in the games indsutry and currently work in a University that offers games courses. If you think that all they get taught is how to mimic other peoples ideas you are mistaken. They study everything AAA games, board games, pen and paper, pinball, foosball, mobile games. There are two 48 hour game jams every year, students are encouraged to work over the summer on their own games and given the resources to do it. They study peoples responses to games, they work with every type of control scheme you can imagine including full 3d and VR.

It's not like they come in and are thown a role, you are a programmer, you are an artist. If the person has the drive to become a designer they have to be aware and competent in every role and the tools are there. There are many people that are excelling just because they aren't churning out AAA games every year doesn't mean they don't exist.

The people I saw developing the game I worked on were some of the most talented people I have ever worked beside with drive and passion to be the best in their field.

  Volgore

Tipster

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 1704

Posts deleted: 12589457

3/20/13 11:25:51 AM#46

Thank you for taking over my thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/379805/Richard-Garriott-I-think-most-game-designers-really-just-suck.html

The other way around this would have been deleted as duplicate topic.

Back from the banned...again.

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

3/20/13 11:26:00 AM#47
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by SlickShoes
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.

Are you really a member here and asking this question? MMORPG.com forums are PvP forums.

 Actually no I didnt know, im new...guess I better go gear up.

I recommend a good flame suit!

  Hekate27

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 42

3/20/13 11:52:15 AM#48
@Slick Shoes:  Thank you for that information I had no idea, that such University courses existed.  May I ask if there are many such courses or are you "the exception that proves the rule"?  As a long time GM/Player/gamer and all round dreamer I have long had ideas, but sadly absolutely no talent when it comes to computers.  Shame really, as I have had an idea bouncing around inside my head for ages.  Ah well it shall probably have to remain locked inside until I take it to my grave.

Do what thou wilt, and harm ye none. - Witches Rede

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 4720

3/20/13 12:06:59 PM#49
Originally posted by Hekate27
@Slick Shoes:  Thank you for that information I had no idea, that such University courses existed.  May I ask if there are many such courses or are you "the exception that proves the rule"?  As a long time GM/Player/gamer and all round dreamer I have long had ideas, but sadly absolutely no talent when it comes to computers.  Shame really, as I have had an idea bouncing around inside my head for ages.  Ah well it shall probably have to remain locked inside until I take it to my grave.

Courses like that have been around for quite a few years now, can't say that their really that comprehensive, but they probably do give you a reasonable grounding in the subject. If you look upon them as a 'starting point' then thats probably close enough, creative talent in itself is probably something that can't be taught however, a bit like art, you can teach someone to draw, but you can't teach them to create a work of art.

  AwDiddums

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/09/12
Posts: 332

3/20/13 12:17:42 PM#50
Originally posted by Talonsin

This coming from the guy who designed Tabala Rasa?  Pot, meet kettle.

 

One bad game does not make the guy a Hypocrite or poor designer. Would you care to show the world your wonderful portfolio of games that you have created from scratch just as this man has?

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

3/20/13 12:24:15 PM#51
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by kishe
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by BadSpock
You know, as arrogant as it sounds he is probably right.

Agree, look at all the current MMO's, not much great design.  Just look at SWTOR for example, what a travesty for all that money spent.  Can't say much good about the up and coming ones either although some of the indie's could change that.  You have to lay the blame on poor design throughout.  

99% of design money goes on "Shiny" ...rest goes in gameplay and content.

I mean, seriously, what are some of the "best" games out right now?

How many of them are truly original and compelling games with unique gameplay and how many are rehashes with better GFX and a couple of cool tweaks here and there?

Right now I'm playing Skyrim, which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Oblivion or Morrowind in the end.

And StarCraft II - Heart of the Swarm - which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Starcraft 1 or Warcraft III etc.

And also Path of Exile - which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Diablo or Torchlight etc.

And Sim5 - which is full of issues, but still an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than any other Sim City game or other such city builder.

The most "unique" and innovative game I'm playing at the moment is Minecraft - and it's SO simple. Indie devs are usually just as bad as the big boys - they just have less money so it's even WORSE of gameplay, but every once in a while you get a lightning strike amazing game and dev like Minecraft.

In my book, if a game is fun or even amazing, then the developers have done their job.  Doesn't matter if it's a rehash of games before it or not.  It takes a special developer to achieve that, just like it would take a special developer to achieve that using new mechanisms and new technologies.  Crappy new material is no better than crappy old material.

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1281

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

3/20/13 12:33:41 PM#52

I find alot of the comments here quite amusing.

 

The vast majority of games released these days are absolute shite, nothing but copies of what came before. Just like the music industry... Its all about the packaging.

Only hope is with the Indies, that is the only place where fresh ideas and fresh talent can grow. 

Happens with everything when too much $MONEY$ gets involved.

Zenimax kicked my dog

  neobahamut20

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 306

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

3/20/13 12:56:38 PM#53

I bet a lot of the intellectuals, such as myself, that visit various gaming sites would do even better than Garriot... And he is right, most designers suck. However, when the industry privileges brown-nosers instead of passion, when the industry privileges deadlines over quality, when the industry privileges years of experience over competence, you cannot be surprised. I hope his rant doesn't teach you something new.

 

The reality is profits. Its all they care about. Someone that would go against the modus operandi of a corporation will not be hired. Would he be the best candidate for the product... sure. But for the office? Not sure. Nowadays, the offices are ran by corporate jackasses who couldn't care less about the product so long as they keep their 9 to 5 office hours with a stable salary so they can maintain their facade of success. As long as customers keep the cashflow going a corporation will never change their ways. You will rarely see a big corporation nowadays where the owners are involved. Its all about the CEO pleasing their investors . It is what is destroying gaming.

 

Capitalism has become just like religion now where people worship the almighty dollar instead of God. Think about that and see if you can figure out why. If you can't or it still seems silly to you, you are not part of the intellectual class, so please refrain from sharing your insipid commentary.

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  tkobo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/06
Posts: 472

Current MMO dev teams = Keystone cops.A pure comedy of errors,sadly its not as intentional.

3/20/13 1:11:59 PM#54
Originally posted by Teh_Axi

1. He's right.

2. He's one of them.

3. He should just stick to what he knows best, rehashing the only half decent game he's ever made. (which by todays standard would just be a garbage quality browser game).

Id change number 3 though...

 

3.He should become a politician or used car saleman,and stop putting nails in the mmo imdustries coffin.

 

Hes a one hit wonder,from a time that just about any mmo product put out was a "hit" becuase the customer base was brand new and there was almost no competition.That customer base has long past stopped being so willing to accept anything that comes down the pipe,and he has yet to show he can make something of qaulity by todays standards.

 

The "new" game looks like a clone of an old 80's or early 90's game,given slightly better graphics.

  ironhelix

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/08
Posts: 465

3/20/13 1:46:29 PM#55

The success of Richard Garriott's games is largely viewed through the rose-colored glasses of hindsight. The games he made were good for their time, but that was another time altogether. The last time he tried to make a game, it was total garbage. I played TR from launch, and it just was NOT very good. There were some good ideas here and there, but it's gone for a reason.

He better be bringing the heat with this latest project, or he's going to look like a giant ass.

  Vannor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2884

3/20/13 3:21:21 PM#56
Whatever anyone thinks about what he's saying.. this was an awesome marketing technique for creating awareness for his game. I'd put money on him doing it for that reason.
  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

3/20/13 6:13:04 PM#57

I hope MMORPG.com staff isn't editing this out. BUT: EVERYONE always bemoans we have only politicians who deceive, smooth-talk and none of them speaks plain and open. And ONCE a politician comes who speak plain and direct, people flamewar him down. Same with game developers. Every single one here at one time bemoaned that Game Developers always have "pretty talk", smoothtalk and don't speak plain and open with us. If Garriot now speaks open, and hell says what almost EVERYONE HERE said too at one time, then ALL HAIL TO LORD BRITISH, I say!

I am so tired with "not-this-not-that" people, I am tired of lukewarm, I am tired of grey, I am tired of "oh it's all a matter of perspective".

NO!

NO!

NO!

 

In the immortal words of John Wayne: "People say, you can't see things in black and white and I say, why the heck not!?" Most game designers REALLY just suck. Period. Paragraph. End of story. It's neither evil not over the top, it's the truth.

And here is the news: The TRUTH is totally independent of he who says it. I can eat 20 Schnitzel every day, and still, if I said, overmuch eating meat is unhealthy, it would STILL be the truth. Fine, not everything Lord British was involved turned into gold, namely Tabula Rasa. But Lord British made more epic games in his life than probably any other single person on this PLANET! And how many super succesfull games did YOU GUYS make? How many of YOU own a Castle or went to space? Oh, none? And yet due to YOUR logic, that someone needs to be perfect to have an opinion, you yourself should have no rights to post here. So maybe THINK of whom you are talking. This man says the MUCH NEEDED truth, that game designers mostly suck, because they have no education and no broad understanding.

One thing we REALLY must come to terms with is this: The game industry is still leagues behind in terms of creativity and "modernity". There are so many super old fashioned cliches in the story-telling of games you can essentially predict the outcome of almost any game. Given what leaps in stories and characters TV, movies and novels made in the last decades, games are still a very infantile medium. A primitive medium in terms of story-telling. And before we allow ourselves to accept this truth and think games are now as good as they can be, we will not move forward. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Maybe those lazy ass developers really need Master Garriots spanking to get off their lazy asses and learn to make better games. Then we all benefit from it.

Maybe when YOU created 20 epic games and built a castle and went to space you come back and tell us otherwise. But before than maybe you listen to a man who accomplished more in his life than we all together!

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5414

3/20/13 6:19:15 PM#58

While you could probably technically say that most game designers suck in the same way you could say about half of people have under 100 IQ, I think there are many game designers that are still great beyond the 4 he lists. 

 

The generalization just sounds really stupid to me. If you are going to call people out, man up and say their names. 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

3/21/13 10:57:08 AM#59
Originally posted by Elikal

I hope MMORPG.com staff isn't editing this out. BUT: EVERYONE always bemoans we have only politicians who deceive, smooth-talk and none of them speaks plain and open. And ONCE a politician comes who speak plain and direct, people flamewar him down. Same with game developers. Every single one here at one time bemoaned that Game Developers always have "pretty talk", smoothtalk and don't speak plain and open with us. If Garriot now speaks open, and hell says what almost EVERYONE HERE said too at one time, then ALL HAIL TO LORD BRITISH, I say!

I am so tired with "not-this-not-that" people, I am tired of lukewarm, I am tired of grey, I am tired of "oh it's all a matter of perspective".

NO!

NO!

NO!

 

In the immortal words of John Wayne: "People say, you can't see things in black and white and I say, why the heck not!?" Most game designers REALLY just suck. Period. Paragraph. End of story. It's neither evil not over the top, it's the truth.

And here is the news: The TRUTH is totally independent of he who says it. I can eat 20 Schnitzel every day, and still, if I said, overmuch eating meat is unhealthy, it would STILL be the truth. Fine, not everything Lord British was involved turned into gold, namely Tabula Rasa. But Lord British made more epic games in his life than probably any other single person on this PLANET! And how many super succesfull games did YOU GUYS make? How many of YOU own a Castle or went to space? Oh, none? And yet due to YOUR logic, that someone needs to be perfect to have an opinion, you yourself should have no rights to post here. So maybe THINK of whom you are talking. This man says the MUCH NEEDED truth, that game designers mostly suck, because they have no education and no broad understanding.

One thing we REALLY must come to terms with is this: The game industry is still leagues behind in terms of creativity and "modernity". There are so many super old fashioned cliches in the story-telling of games you can essentially predict the outcome of almost any game. Given what leaps in stories and characters TV, movies and novels made in the last decades, games are still a very infantile medium. A primitive medium in terms of story-telling. And before we allow ourselves to accept this truth and think games are now as good as they can be, we will not move forward. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Maybe those lazy ass developers really need Master Garriots spanking to get off their lazy asses and learn to make better games. Then we all benefit from it.

Maybe when YOU created 20 epic games and built a castle and went to space you come back and tell us otherwise. But before than maybe you listen to a man who accomplished more in his life than we all together!

The thing about being successful is that the bar is constantly changing.  Past successes do not equate to future successes.  I wouldn't touch a single one of his games today, even though I used to love them when I didn't know any better.  He has an opinion, a rather abrasive one, but it is still an opinion and one that is not rooted in facts.  He has no more of a clue what will make the next 'Hot' MMO than any of the other 'Clueless' developers he appears to despise.  At least most of 'them' aren't obnoxious twits who don't know how to keep their fat traps shut, before they start insulting the entire industry they're trying to get back into.

 

We are the consumers and we have every right to ignore blowhards who have a history of success with absolutely no recent or current successes to justify his behavior.  If he had said this sort of thing 20 years ago, he might have a leg to stand on, even if he's still an obnoxious twit, but that certainly isn't the case in today's modern world.

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/22/13 9:09:18 PM#60

I wonder if he woulda said all those things if his kickstartes hadnt funded.

Dont get me wrong, i loved bascailly all Ultima games as i started with ultima II i think on my c-64.

i agree with alot of what he said, in a way...But there are somethings that are better left unsaid, or at least could be said differently.

But frankly, Shrouds of the avatar isnt for me. i admire some of his works, but i think that if we compare UO from the late 90's and Shrouds in 2013, UO was better.

I might be wrong, but from what i saw, Shrouds will be a step back, not a step forward.

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

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