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General Discussion  » Another great title ruined to the themepark.

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245 posts found
  GreenHell

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

3/21/13 7:50:07 AM#61
Originally posted by jfoytek
*SNIP*

 

A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

Answer: NO

I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.

B) Why make another copy of whats out there, look at the MMORPG game list how many times can you regurgetate the same crap and spit it out?

Answer: Where is the risk in doing something not like the rest of the pack

Investors don't care how many of the same types of games are out there. Just like movies, books, tv shows. It doesnt matter to them. If there is any money to be made in cloning they will take it. Its all about risk vs reward. The rewards from a successful sandbox from what history has shown us are not great. The rewards from a successful themepark are insane.

C) How often do you read on message boards people like me clammer and btiching and begging for a decent MMO with PvP/Crafting/ in an open Sand Box?

Answer: All the time

 

Message boards like this have a reputation for disgruntled gamers. People that are not happy flock here. Do you really believe that your opinions are a factual representation of what the majority of gamers want? WoW's 8 year domination would say otherwise. If you were an investor and you came here would you give even a little credibility to what your saying? Would you risk millions of dollars after reading most of the posts on this forum?

So why wouldnt you go against the main stream and garunteed yourself a client base that is waiting to be had!

Nothing is a guarantee. If the game wasnt perfect how many people would stick around? How many complaints would there be on these forums about the game. Hell, people dont even need to play a game before they bash it. The problem is you are not thinking about this from any perspective other than your desire to play the game you want to play. Thats cool. We are all gamers thats what we do. Thats not how an investor will look at it though. Its about numbers and a sandbox game can not prove through numbers alone it could turn a huge profit.

  SysFail

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/05
Posts: 377

3/21/13 7:50:25 AM#62
Originally posted by Po_gg
Originally posted by BadSpock

Now, I have NO idea if ESO is going to be any good or not.

But anywho who thinks a full loot kill anyone steal anything Elder Scrolls MMO would actually work is, well.... misguided.

I am a big fan of the ES RPGs, and I know enough to know what systems in those games wouldn't work in a MMO.

+1 to that as well. And misguided is a very kind and friendly word for it :)

I don't think i've read anyone mentioning that TESO should be full loot in this thread.

UO trammel did very well post split, was the safe factor overly done yes, even the devs admit that, but it shows a good sandbox can be done without alienating those who prefer not to get involved in the PvP aspects of a game.

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3376

3/21/13 7:50:51 AM#63
This hate for themepark games as of late makes me laugh. There are less sandbox games because less people play them. Most players like some amount of guided experence. Also just because the game is themepark does not mean it auto sucks. =-P Also TES was very themepark. Quest trackers and map pointers, stories with very guided direction. There were a few sandbox type parts to the game but it was not the majority of the content. Real sandbox is being able to build and shape the world as a player and TES had none of that. Learn what sandbox means before you chuck out the game because its themepark.
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16484

3/21/13 7:53:50 AM#64
Originally posted by jfoytek

I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

 

Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

The hype of Wow was not really what destroyed Shadowbane, while the game had a huge potential it just wasnt good enough.

And it wasnt really the customer releations that is DFs problem, bad UI and bad programming really ruined the game.

I agree that it sucks that ESO isnt made into a sandbox game closer to Daggerfall than Wow but it really isnt the themeparks fault, it is lazy devs who lack the imagination to make the mechanics to work in a MMO and instead use the same old standard mechanics.

As for carebears I am not so sure that TES really would work as a hardcore FFA PVP full loot game either, the main point of making a MMO in TES world should be to make a massive version of the singleplayer games, no to make a new pre trammel UO. There are plenty of other IPs that would work excellent for that, ESO should be made for fans of the original games who want a massive version of their game.

World of darkness on the other hand is the right IP for that, so I hope CCP gets the game done fast.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

 
OP  3/21/13 7:57:18 AM#65
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by jfoytek
*SNIP*

 

A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

Answer: NO

I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.

Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  spladian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/09
Posts: 20

3/21/13 8:08:10 AM#66

It's not even about games any more for half of ya...

 

Its about being addicted junkies trying to find that feeling of your first high again.

 

Seems to be the common rant these days... I've played games x,y,z... they all suck and don't even come close to game w.

 

Go get some help, junkies.....the cheese and whine you bring to half of these forums is atrocious.

  GreenHell

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

3/21/13 8:08:23 AM#67
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by jfoytek
*SNIP*

 

A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

Answer: NO

I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.

Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?

You see thats the point. I don't have to. I have at least 1 game in the genre that has made crazy amounts of money. You do not. I can show you examples of themepark MMOs that I'm pretty sure beat your best sandbox subscription numbers. Is there a sandbox with better numbers than EVE? So the number I have to beat is what? 250K? 300k? Do you really believe that is a hard number to beat? I'm pretty sure Rift beats that. In just sub numbers I'm pretty sure ToR beats that as well.

The case for a sandbox MMO has been weak since WoW came out. Is WoW just some freak thing that will never happen again? I don't know but couldn't the same be said for EVE? Now think as an investor not as a gamer that wants his game made. Where would you invest your money?

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

 
OP  3/21/13 8:11:08 AM#68
Originally posted by GreenHell

Nothing is a guarantee. If the game wasnt perfect how many people would stick around? How many complaints would there be on these forums about the game. Hell, people dont even need to play a game before they bash it. The problem is you are not thinking about this from any perspective other than your desire to play the game you want to play. Thats cool. We are all gamers thats what we do. Thats not how an investor will look at it though. Its about numbers and a sandbox game can not prove through numbers alone it could turn a huge profit.

Runescape

Ultima Online

Eve Online

Star Wars Galaxies

 

Now name 4 Theamparks that could compare too these old Sandbox's in profit and subscriptions?  Without using WoW....

I will help you out

1) Everquest

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/21/13 8:13:59 AM#69
Originally posted by jfoytek

 but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

 there is some truth in this, I´ve seen this with every game in development, the carebears jump in with their whining for safemode play and restrictive mechanics, they are the ones ruining pretty much every MMO in the last decade and developers do ALWAYS listen to them, this is why we can´t have nice new things anymore and at least some realism and openness, decision and free will.

damn you carebears, I´ll be waiting for you in the eternal fire of hell !!!

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  SysFail

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/05
Posts: 377

3/21/13 8:20:44 AM#70
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by jfoytek

 but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

 there is some truth in this, I´ve seen this with every game in development, the carebears jump in with their whining for safemode play and restrictive mechanics, they are the ones ruining pretty much every MMO in the last decade and developers do ALWAYS listen to them, this is why we can´t have nice new things anymore and at least some realism and openness, decision and free will.

damn you carebears, I´ll be waiting for you in the eternal fire of hell !!!

Free will... shush... your alert the lobotomist's...

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2622

110100100

3/21/13 8:25:19 AM#71


Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by jfoytek

Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by jfoytek

*SNIP*  
A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek??? Answer: NO
I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.
Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?
You see thats the point. I don't have to. I have at least 1 game in the genre that has made crazy amounts of money. You do not. I can show you examples of themepark MMOs that I'm pretty sure beat your best sandbox subscription numbers. Is there a sandbox with better numbers than EVE? So the number I have to beat is what? 250K? 300k? Do you really believe that is a hard number to beat? I'm pretty sure Rift beats that. In just sub numbers I'm pretty sure ToR beats that as well.

The case for a sandbox MMO has been weak since WoW came out. Is WoW just some freak thing that will never happen again? I don't know but couldn't the same be said for EVE? Now think as an investor not as a gamer that wants his game made. Where would you invest your money?


i am willing to bet that SWTOR has more subs than any sandbox ever has at one point lol

i am not against sandbox games but it is very niche much like the mmo community prior to wow

expecting a title like TES to cater to a niche audience is not very realistic.

also, TES games were not sandbox's so i am not sure why people expect the MMO to be one?

just because you can do any quest you want at any time and anywhere does not make it a sandbox.

there are quests for god sakes and a main story line had fed to you just like any other "theme park"

  Alber_gamer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 455

3/21/13 8:27:40 AM#72

Even sandbox is for carebears nowadays, so the point is moot.

 

We're in a stage of gaming where what matters is that the 12 years old kid that got good scores in his school exams can get rewarded by daddy with a 60 buck videogame - and sadly, what has to be attractive for a 12 years old school kid to beg his daddy for, will not be attractive for seasoned gamers. It might at best be acceptable, and it doesn't matter if it's sandbox or themepark.

 

You can do two things: 

 

1) Whine. Will get you nowhere. You are the minority.

2) Make your own game, or help funding one through sites like indiegogo and kickstarter.

 

 

Of course, whining takes less effort, and is free. You take your pick.

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  GreenHell

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

3/21/13 8:29:16 AM#73
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by GreenHell

Nothing is a guarantee. If the game wasnt perfect how many people would stick around? How many complaints would there be on these forums about the game. Hell, people dont even need to play a game before they bash it. The problem is you are not thinking about this from any perspective other than your desire to play the game you want to play. Thats cool. We are all gamers thats what we do. Thats not how an investor will look at it though. Its about numbers and a sandbox game can not prove through numbers alone it could turn a huge profit.

Runescape

Ultima Online

Eve Online

Star Wars Galaxies

 

Now name 4 Theamparks that could compare too these old Sandbox's in profit and subscriptions?  Without using WoW....

I will help you out

1) Everquest

You just really don't get it do you? I am not trying to be insulting but you just can't see past what you want. That makes this discussion difficult. But ok lets roll with what you posted.

Out of all of those games which ones were made in the past 8 years?

EVE 2003

UO 1997

Runescape 2001

SWG 2003

Everquest 1999

Why is it so hard for people to understand that the industry has changed and evolved with the demands of the times? WoW has redefined what an MMORPG is. For better or worse (thats all personal opinion) things will never go back to the way they were. How many of todays gamers would pay for that kind of experience? I think EVE answers that question.

People always point to EQ as why a sandbox game could and should be made. The same old "it's been around for so long, it has so many expansions" I don't argue that. It's staying power is pretty amazing. That being said though WoW has been around for 8 years and unlike EQ it has dominated this genre of gaming for it's entire life. If we give credit to EQ how can you not give more credit to what WoW has accomplished. Times have changed. I am not saying there isnt as many players for that type of game as there used to be. There may be. There are more players though that want a themepark game. Im pretty sure the difference in those numbers is quite substantial. So once again where would you put your money?

 

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2622

110100100

3/21/13 8:31:02 AM#74


Originally posted by jfoytek

Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by jfoytek

*SNIP*  
A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek??? Answer: NO
I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.
Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?

i can show you multiple themepark games that have/had more subs than any sandbox.

sandbox games are for a niche audience, if you cannot acknowledge that you simply are not being realistic or knowledgeable to the subject at all.

also, you keep throwing around the "care bear" label as if being an ES fan of the single player games isn't "care bear" play style.

if you are a such a hardcore sandbox pvp'er, why in the hell are you a fan of the ES series you care bear?? lol

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18822

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/21/13 8:32:31 AM#75
Originally posted by jfoytek

Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

 

Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

Theampark

PvE

or Just not very good

 

Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

 

Now these points I can defintely agree with you on. 

But the trick is, don't blame the players who prefer this style of gaming or insult them with name-calling, their preferences are no better or worse than yours. (or mine)

I do think the market for games that you and I favor might be larger than currently believed by investors/developers, but until some PVP centric title (besides EVE) breaks out and becomes a big success (like Minecraft did) we're not likely to see a lot of love for our playstyles.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Nitth

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3201

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

3/21/13 8:34:48 AM#76


Originally posted by jfoytek
Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

Your not thinking straight. WoW was never a sandbox.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3376

3/21/13 8:37:51 AM#77
I dont get the OP at all. TES was never a sandbox game. You cant build and change the world so TES is not sandbox. ESO followed TES themepark guided experience where the lore and world does not change at all by you playing it, other then killing the bad guy. If you made the game sandbox most fans would have shown up and said, I dont know this game. Name me anything from TES that fixs with a sandbox model?
  gessekai332

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 839

3/21/13 8:38:05 AM#78
themepark game = themepark lifespan. enjoy your game for the initial 2 months before it crashes like all the other themepark games out there.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3376

3/21/13 8:38:21 AM#79
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by jfoytek
Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

 

Your not thinking straight. WoW was never a sandbox.

This!!!

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3376

3/21/13 8:42:59 AM#80
I dont think the majority of the people in this thread know what a sandbox game is.
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