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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "Leveling ties us to the world MORE THAN ANYTHING"

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89 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/20/13 7:12:28 PM#21
Originally posted by Kushkut

"Leveling up your character and building him or her through a game is one of the most important elements in MMOs.  It’s what ties us to the world, more than anything. Elder Scrolls Online has fused the best possible systems from both MMOs and the Elder Scrolls RPGs to make progression fun and interesting."


Am I honestly the only one who could not care less about the endless stream of quests where you have to deliver X item to Y zone or kill Z amount of the same mobs zone after zone?

You're not the only one who couldn't care less, but that's probably irrelevant because that's not what they are talking about.

 

Your thread title is misleading. He does not say leveling ties us to the world more than anything. He says character development does.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16651

3/20/13 7:17:34 PM#22
Originally posted by Kushkut
 

 

My point is, why do I feel like I have to suffer a punishment (leveling, grinding, whatever you want to call it) before I can play the game I want? And usually then it disappoints the living shit out of me. :)

And what game do you want? Keeping in mind rpg's tend to be about character building of some sort.

But besides that, "what game do you want?"

And can you be specific? Not just "I want a game that's fun" becvause it's difficult to discuss subjective criteria".

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 295

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/20/13 7:29:24 PM#23
I feel your putting too much emphasis on the way the worded the subject. And in all honesty, character development (aka leveling) is the second most imporant part of RPGs, it is basically what quantifies the genre, character development.

I would say the most important part of all games is the gameplay, with combat being the emphasis on most activity, that part of the gameplay should be the most important.

Both can be done good, or bad, both can suit certain preferences, and both are essential parts of an MMORPG. Now if you made a shooter or action game that wasn't much into character development, it may overlook that aspect, but it basically isn't an RPG anymore. If you don't like that element, your looking in the wrong genre, if you are just unsatisfied with the quality or kind of development being used, than you should specify that better.

They may be over emphasising character development. That doesn't mean they default fail at whatever else your interested in, so I would take a step back and just observe their endeavour. Your not gonna change their priorities by nit picking their specific articulation.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6489

3/20/13 7:34:35 PM#24

Progression =/= questing. 

 

AoW, and EVE have questless progression.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/20/13 8:24:32 PM#25
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Dihoru The day any developer says "leveling is important in our MMO! because we believe it ties you to the game/world/universe!" is the day I know that MMO will flop hard and the day I decide not to touch it even if paid to do it.

 

 

I guess you missed out on the success of EQ and WoW (among others)

I guess you missed out on where I said I played WoW back in the day ;) and I've talked to people who were rabid EQ or Lineage 2 fans.

 

Progression via levels is a clear reward for effort system which works but neither EQ nor WoW were games solely based on their leveling system, the leveling system was merely there to give the players structure and a clear cut goal to aspire to but in and of itself it was not the way in which the player was tied to the universe because if you get bored of leveling you quit, it's the experience you have while playing the game (be it while leveling, corpse running, etc) that either ties you to the game or makes you quit it eventually and a key part of this experience within MMOs are other players and how you relate to them. This is why most modern MMOs fail, because they focus too much on the goals and too little on the journey and the adventures one could have getting to those goals.

You are basically agreeing with me (and the original quote) with your statement in red.  They are equaiting 'leveling' to 'the journey'.  Because they are interchangeable.  Journey, leveling, character building, however you want to phrase it.  The journey is what bonds you to the game world.  

 

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/20/13 8:36:26 PM#26

Thats just sad on many levels. As mmo deve they HAVE to know thats bs. Lvling is the annoying thing we do before we get to what we play mmos for, making an impact on the game world and making our characters unique.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/20/13 9:36:27 PM#27
Originally posted by Xobdnas

Thats just sad on many levels. As mmo deve they HAVE to know thats bs. Lvling is the annoying thing we do before we get to what we play mmos for, making an impact on the game world and making our characters unique.

 

I have *never* seen leveling (or character building or journeying) as annoying in a good mmorpg. All the good ones are engaging from start to finish.
  Kinchyle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 264

3/20/13 9:41:41 PM#28

Your thread title is misleading. He does not say leveling ties us to the world more than anything. He says character development does.

This

  Toxia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 1265

3/20/13 9:43:24 PM#29
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by nariusseldon

What do you expect?

You have leveling in the original TES game, why would you expect a MMO version to be very different?

They are not making a totally new IP MMO. They are making TES MMO .. so obviously it is going to be like an elder scroll game with other people.

 lol...no.

In TES if you hit level 2, so do the mobs...everywhere making 100% of the content 100% viable 100% of the time.

In TES you can max out ALL crafting skills to max, in this game you cant, you can only max 2.

In TES you can max out ALL combat/magic skills, so far, no word on skill point limits.

In TES you can go anywhere in the game world any time you want (story limits are outside the main world)...plain to see that you cant in this one.

In TES you can be any race and join any faction with it, and in some...switch sides....not here...not even close.

In TES Elves are freaking alienbutt ugly...in this, they are beautiful.

The game isnt even sticking to lore!

TESO isnt for TES fans, its for DaoC fans and there is a TON more outrage on the offical TES forums and mod sites about the new details, the only announcement made the last two days that got any love was the 1st person announcement and the HOPE that classes are not going to be limited with skill points thats going to take away any real sense of character class freedom and make it nothing short of a lame attempt at freedom only to lock people into limited rolls anyway.

False. go make a noob in skyrim and head to Riften, or whichever that city is off far to the east. The bears will whip your ass. Become level 20 and return to the starting area. The wolves will beat on you until the sun goes down and do nothing.

The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1421

3/20/13 9:45:25 PM#30


Originally posted by Kushkut"Leveling up your character and building him or her through a game is one of the most important elements in MMOs.  It’s what ties us to the world, more than anything."

Sounds like a quote from a textbook to me. An old textbook. I bet the next line of the book reads. "Fantasy rpg games must have elves".

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  Phantasmagoria

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/12
Posts: 65

3/20/13 10:03:57 PM#31
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I"m going by just what you wrote here, I did not yet read the article or have I really investigated TESO.

However leveling does not mean class levels.  Skills is also levelling.  Horizontal progression is also levelling, just not vertically.

Any form of progression is basically a level in some shape or form.

Levelling doesn't mean quests.  Levelling doesn't mean end game.

Levelling just mean progression.  And IMO they are right, progession is the best way to tie you to your character and the world.

Everything you wrote is specifically aimed at class levelling, which is only one of several types. 

 

I've got to agree with this one. Leveling is just not the number that you can see below your character in the UI.

Levelling has to do with progression. For example, at level 1, you only have these outfits that make you look like a homeless traveller who doesn't have any money or anything.. once you reach level 20, you get to dress up your character a bit more to look more prestigious. you know.. something a little bit like this:

anyway, as you level, you also get access to different dungeons, maps, and special quests. you can join clans, turn on PK, go on PvP, get unique gears and items and other features in the game, which players are actually looking forward to. 

We're talking about general progression here and not just the process on how you level up i.e., quests and grinding.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

3/20/13 10:05:53 PM#32

Beautiful, another "Your vision of what I wanted the game to be differs from mine so now I'll moan like a child."

 

They are 100% correct, leveling, progressing, whatever term you want to use, ties you to the world and your character.  Leveling up teaches you when/where/how to use your abilities.  I'm sure you're amazing without this, however not all of us are obviously as gifted as you.  

 

The best part is, if you don't like it; You don't have to play.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2409

3/21/13 3:38:44 AM#33
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Dihoru The day any developer says "leveling is important in our MMO! because we believe it ties you to the game/world/universe!" is the day I know that MMO will flop hard and the day I decide not to touch it even if paid to do it.

 

 

I guess you missed out on the success of EQ and WoW (among others)

I guess you missed out on where I said I played WoW back in the day ;) and I've talked to people who were rabid EQ or Lineage 2 fans.

 

Progression via levels is a clear reward for effort system which works but neither EQ nor WoW were games solely based on their leveling system, the leveling system was merely there to give the players structure and a clear cut goal to aspire to but in and of itself it was not the way in which the player was tied to the universe because if you get bored of leveling you quit, it's the experience you have while playing the game (be it while leveling, corpse running, etc) that either ties you to the game or makes you quit it eventually and a key part of this experience within MMOs are other players and how you relate to them. This is why most modern MMOs fail, because they focus too much on the goals and too little on the journey and the adventures one could have getting to those goals.

You are basically agreeing with me (and the original quote) with your statement in red.  They are equaiting 'leveling' to 'the journey'.  Because they are interchangeable.  Journey, leveling, character building, however you want to phrase it.  The journey is what bonds you to the game world.  

Nope, I do not because it is dumb to consider the two interchangeable because you can build a character in some games to be as effective as it'll ever be without ever hitting "the level cap", EVE Online is based around this (sure there is a level cap in EVE too but it would take if I am not mistaken 50 to 60 years to reach it under ideal circumstances) and Albion Online looks to be doing away with leveling completely (progression will be primarily community based with items coming in as a 2nd means of progression by what I've seen). In those games progression, what ties you to the world, is your relationship to the community, the roots you put down and, if applicable, the patch of space you claimed as your own, not the level of your character.

 

The next time any developer says leveling is what ties you to their games I want you to imagine what that actually means to the game itself (it is ok for a player within a game to say "right, my aim is to be max level, that is my goal" but that same player could take being max level as a tertiary concern to their actual goals, ex: being the best weaponsmith on the server or exploring the entire in-game world on foot, etc) because to me it just sounds like a game with very few choices in terms of gameplay all focused on leveling your character which for those who want to leave it as a tertiary concern means they're gimping their experience within the game (the more focus given to leveling the more they have to incentivize it which in turn means the less things you can do before level cap, if their focus would fall on say the community then they'd focus on offering many possible activities to let you progress in one way or another within the game without forcing you onto a leveling rail).

 

Also as a aside: The person who said even Ultima Online had levels never played before Trammel and should feel bad for spouting what he/she did (leveling in that game came as a secondary concern to increase your overall effectiveness in-game but what you chose to do was completely up to you and level cap within Ultima Online could be hit within 4-5 days of grinding).

If leveling is ever considered more than a goal in a game then that game has a serious handicap from the very start

  xDrac

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/10
Posts: 177

3/21/13 5:44:09 AM#34

Lineage II did it right. It took you months and years to hit level cap, it was that slow. But that's what was actually good about it. People forgot about grinding to level cap asap because it wasn't really possible to do it all that quickly. So that's how the "journey" became more of a focus itself. The way to the top is the actual fun part. After all, isn't PvP for a leveling spot much better than PvP at "endgame" (I hate this word too).

People were grinding four hours and days in one area and it was actually damn fun and awesome! Getting the best leveling spot encouraged PvP, you had to fight for it, you met new people that had to grind just like you, it was fairly awesome and being an actual 'high level' still meant something back then. 

 

Oh good old times... screw all those MMO's where you can rush through content to cap in just one or a few months, it sucks and it doesn't do the devs and game designers any justice imo.

Lineage 3 - www.lineage3-online.com
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.deviantart.com

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

3/21/13 6:21:02 AM#35
Originally posted by Kushkut

Came across today's article on TESO leveling and it made me yet a little bit more depressed about the whole AAA MMO industry once again. Here's the article if you didn't get the chance to read it yet:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/7232/Elder-Scrolls-Online-The-Way-of-Progress.html

What struck me the most were the first lines of the write-up:

 

"Leveling up your character and building him or her through a game is one of the most important elements in MMOs.  It’s what ties us to the world, more than anything. Elder Scrolls Online has fused the best possible systems from both MMOs and the Elder Scrolls RPGs to make progression fun and interesting."

I know that the subject of "End Game" or "Content Skipping" has been grinded to death, but why does it have to be either black or white?

 

Am I honestly the only one who could not care less about the endless stream of quests where you have to deliver X item to Y zone or kill Z amount of the same mobs zone after zone? I can understand that the progression from point A to point B (let's use levels, 1 to 50 as an example) makes the players "ready" for end game and enables them to learn their characters. But who takes several days or even weeks (of playing time!) to sufficiently handle their shit? Storyline is different, if all quests/missions related to the actual story, the whole process would feel a lot less forced.

 

And what goes for "content skipping", why is "leveling" still the most invested part of today's major MMORPGS? Why don't storylines enable players to get briefly acquainted with their characters before releasing them to the actual content which happens when you are able to interact with the majority of the other people? Why is there such a huge cap between "content" and "end game" (jesus I hate those words)? Most of the people I interact with usually fast "grind" to cap and I know we are not the only ones in order to get in the actual gameplay. Shit loads of resources (time and money) spent on awesome content creation which is only used to the fullest by a potentially small group? (Think SWTOR, a MASSIVE amount of cash used on voice actors only to realize the game is fucking bad when you hit max level.)

 

Another thing that upsets me with the current direction MMORPGS are evolving to is the amount of resources wasted on zones that are deserted pretty much right after the launch. Why do you spend days, weeks or even months modelling regions that players only use for a couple of hours?

 

This experience comes from a set of different games such as Fallen Earth, SWTOR, WoW, Rift and Aion.

 

PS. I also despise the fact that when you are a young player or "level 1" you can't kill a pet pig with 200 fist strikes. But when you are max level you one shot a fucking dragon. Why such a cap?

TLDR: I am whining about MMORPGS using too much resources on "content" that is not used to the fullest or even efficiently in most cases.

in every mmo players only go to those areas where best loot and xp is gathered rest world will be deserted this fact that devs seems not to graps but also fault of community who play mmo's.

  Tindale111

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 165

3/21/13 6:49:58 AM#36
exactly if your not enjoying the journey thru a game then maybe you shouldnt play mmos i maybe only one of a few that enjoyed my journey thru Swtor but im not so big on so called endgame mainly because i dont have time for raiding etc
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/21/13 7:18:36 AM#37
Originally posted by Xobdnas

Thats just sad on many levels. As mmo deve they HAVE to know thats bs. Lvling is the annoying thing we do before we get to what we play mmos for, making an impact on the game world and making our characters unique.

What's sad is that millions of you consider it annoying, yet you still pay the company monthly to do it.

 

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5760

3/21/13 7:25:34 AM#38
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Xobdnas

Thats just sad on many levels. As mmo deve they HAVE to know thats bs. Lvling is the annoying thing we do before we get to what we play mmos for, making an impact on the game world and making our characters unique.

What's sad is that millions of you consider it annoying, yet you still pay the company monthly to do it.

 

I agree. But many people play MMO like a console game. quiting it after their 100 hours.

 

Having character levels in a MMO with level based zones is bad game design. nothing less nothing more.

  timtrack

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 393

3/21/13 7:26:23 AM#39
Probably all of my best MMO-memories comes from levelling up and exploring the world.
  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2409

3/21/13 7:37:00 AM#40
Originally posted by timtrack
Probably all of my best MMO-memories comes from levelling up and exploring the world.

But think back, did leveling in itself tie you to the game or did it just offer a means to get rewarded and a goal to work towards?

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