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General Discussion  » POLL: Cross faction coop and the effect on AvA and "Faction Pride"

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  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

3/20/13 3:23:33 PM#61
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

 If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done.

 And as can be plainly seen by the ENTIRE GENRE...NOBOY wanted to, because it wasnt that good and it was far too limiting in game design. The only people interested in that small tiny box of limitations are the very same people that made DaoC.

Themepark PvE is bad enough, themepark PvP is the WORST idea in the history of the genre and the only players that want it are SOME of the 250k that played it and had limited MMO experience before DaoC. Personally, I was glad I left the game before Hibernia players had a fit and did their sit in protests about the crapfest the game was.

Seriously, how many games were so bad that its own players protested IN GAME about it?

I get some or a lot were upset about the DAoC model. Maybe its just me but I think over the past 6 years we have had a lot of bad MMOs for a reasons. The chemistry of what made some MMOs like EQ1, WoW, EVE and DAoC to name a few. Was because they happened to mix things just right. The core of what made that game work was more art then just some cool ideas put together. If you want awesome sandbox PvP then IMO its best to look at the best of the best sandbox PvP game and breakdown to the core of what made that game work and they add your twist to it. VO story, player econ what ever. But when you start mixing things up now you are not sure what your going to get. ESO picked DAoC as their model and the more they pull away from what worked the more you dont know what your going to get. The greater the risk and sometimes it pays off but thats rare. 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15588

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/13 3:31:37 PM#62
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

 If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done.

 And as can be plainly seen by the ENTIRE GENRE...NOBOY wanted to, because it wasnt that good and it was far too limiting in game design. The only people interested in that small tiny box of limitations are the very same people that made DaoC.

Themepark PvE is bad enough, themepark PvP is the WORST idea in the history of the genre and the only players that want it are SOME of the 250k that played it and had limited MMO experience before DaoC. Personally, I was glad I left the game before Hibernia players had a fit and did their sit in protests about the crapfest the game was.

Seriously, how many games were so bad that its own players protested IN GAME about it?

I get some or a lot were upset about the DAoC model. Maybe its just me but I think over the past 6 years we have had a lot of bad MMOs for a reasons. The chemistry of what made some MMOs like EQ1, WoW, EVE and DAoC to name a few. Was because they happened to mix things just right. The core of what made that game work was more art then just some cool ideas put together. If you want awesome sandbox PvP then IMO its best to look at the best of the best sandbox PvP game and breakdown to the core of what made that game work and they add your twist to it. VO story, player econ what ever. But when you start mixing things up now you are not sure what your going to get. ESO picked DAoC as their model and the more they pull away from what worked the more you dont know what your going to get. The greater the risk and sometimes it pays off but thats rare. 

Well this explains our difference of opinion quite well, I didn't get my hopes up of living those glory days in this game, as I don't expect the current overall populace to approach this game as many did games in 02 and 03. The demographic has shifted, PVp environments are more akin to FPS titles today, not people who like to work together to achieve common goals and provide a believable fun gaming experience.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  moroel

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/24/10
Posts: 10

3/20/13 3:37:57 PM#63
So this game AvA will be the same as rift conquest?
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

3/20/13 3:42:46 PM#64
Originally posted by moroel
So this game AvA will be the same as rift conquest?

We just got a major change and we had little info before and now we know even less. So at this point we can only guess.

  Kyelthis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 285

3/20/13 3:58:36 PM#65
According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

3/20/13 4:00:15 PM#66
Originally posted by Kyelthis
According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.

  Fearum

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

3/20/13 4:12:40 PM#67
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Kyelthis
According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.

 

It looks like it just going to be a race to get to the third faction tier rewards now. In a few of the interviews it sounds like the rewards increase the most when you get there. Is this going to be how you get the best stuff in the game, like mats and items?
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3463

3/20/13 4:16:25 PM#68
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Kyelthis
According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.

 

It looks like it just going to be a race to get to the third faction tier rewards now. In a few of the interviews it sounds like the rewards increase the most when you get there. Is this going to be how you get the best stuff in the game, like mats and items?

I hope it is. Cross faction teaming IMO as I have already said is a fail. If its as Maria says this is a compromise I can get behind!

  Kyelthis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 285

3/20/13 4:48:54 PM#69
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Kyelthis
According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.

 

It looks like it just going to be a race to get to the third faction tier rewards now. In a few of the interviews it sounds like the rewards increase the most when you get there. Is this going to be how you get the best stuff in the game, like mats and items?

I hope it is. Cross faction teaming IMO as I have already said is a fail. If its as Maria says this is a compromise I can get behind!

 

Yeah, I agree. Grouping with the other faction is pretty immersion-breaking to me as far as a faction based game goes. I hope it's as she said it will be.
  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 4:59:01 PM#70
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I get some or a lot were upset about the DAoC model. Maybe its just me but I think over the past 6 years we have had a lot of bad MMOs for a reasons. The chemistry of what made some MMOs like EQ1, WoW, EVE and DAoC to name a few. Was because they happened to mix things just right. The core of what made that game work was more art then just some cool ideas put together. If you want awesome sandbox PvP then IMO its best to look at the best of the best sandbox PvP game and breakdown to the core of what made that game work and they add your twist to it. VO story, player econ what ever. But when you start mixing things up now you are not sure what your going to get. ESO picked DAoC as their model and the more they pull away from what worked the more you dont know what your going to get. The greater the risk and sometimes it pays off but thats rare. 

 Its all opinion based and I do THANK YOU for naming other good games, games which BTW had plenty of faction pride that totally negates the entire point of this thread.

If a game can have faction pride without forced factions then the idea that forced pride is needed is negated 100% because you can make your own pride.

Seriously, who is proud of their country by force? North Korea, thats who...I am proud of my country because it DESERVES IT...I sure as hell dont need someone to hold my hand and make it proud for me.

BTW, I am proud of my country with MIXED races(even though there is only a human race but steriotypes prevail here) and I also can go to another nation, walk in their country and make war on them THERE ON THEIR BACKDOORS.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/20/13 10:02:21 PM#71

Wow, talk about complete polar shift.  I don't feel this is any different than DAoC co-op servers.  I actually look foward to the game now (I even signed up for beta!).

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1134

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

3/20/13 10:08:33 PM#72
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by rygard49

Obviously the announced faction unlocks at level 50 is a hot topic amongst the PvP community. What do you all think, is faction pride dead now? Will this decision have no effect at all? Will faction pride have as big an effect on AvA as some think it will?

I heartily disagree with the decision to open up the borders at level 50. I feel that it was pandering, that it goes against the original design that attracted me to the game, and that it will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the faction pride they were seeking to foster. All for the sake of the PvE players.

However, I also don't think it necessarily destroys the potential for AvA to be great feature. It remains to be seen what the long term consequences of this decision will be.

It's great for RP's and PVE's, now we have two more fation areas to explore even though they are instanced versions. The PVP's can go there but only for PVE lol and they won't see the otrher faction.

PVE in other faction areas and our own fation area plus PVE in Cyrodiil = win for PVE's.

There needs to be a distinctive separation between factions.  The only time this should change is if there is full invasion in effect, ala, our faction just took the last keep and opened up the enemy realm for full pvp UNTIL the keep is retaken.  Now that, my friends, would be awesome.  Will that happen?  No, just too much fun for a gamer to have.  And we have learned that fun is usually not part...okay - there I go.

Let's hope this works out - but I use Dark Age of Camelot as the model to compare other RvR mmorpgs (not many to choose from if any)...and I don't like opening anything that doesn't include full invasion.  I hate seeing lore scrubbed and like TSW I found is absolutely silly that we hung out in pve with folks we pvp'd.  Just lazyness and lackluster imagination.

 

Hopefully I'm wrong and it works out.  We need the 3 realm model to evolve and be recognized as a standard by the younger player generation (or the post WoW folks). 

  nightfallrob

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/08
Posts: 170

3/21/13 1:17:41 AM#73

To me this step seems much more in-keeping with TES lore and traditions. Many of the quests in TES reflected a "shades of gray" morality that had the player allied with people he couldn't trust or turned against later. Being able to work with other faction members will be reminiscent of what spying actually looks like IRL: lots of contacts, a few allies, no real friends. I can deal with this idea a lot easier than I can "you can't go there, ever, because you work for the wrong team." 

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1565

3/21/13 2:49:08 AM#74
Originally posted by nightfallrob

To me this step seems much more in-keeping with TES lore and traditions. Many of the quests in TES reflected a "shades of gray" morality that had the player allied with people he couldn't trust or turned against later. Being able to work with other faction members will be reminiscent of what spying actually looks like IRL: lots of contacts, a few allies, no real friends. I can deal with this idea a lot easier than I can "you can't go there, ever, because you work for the wrong team." 

You can't see other faction members in the instanced copy of the other faction areas.

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  Buccaneer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/31/07
Posts: 433

3/21/13 10:08:56 AM#75

I posted the below in another thread, but it seems more suitable for this thread.

I don't understand why people are worrying over faction pride in this game. I could understand it if the game was going to have the classic servers, but its not, it's going to be one big mega server. The pvp zone is going to have loads of instances of it running simultaneously, and from what I can gather, the player will have the option of transfering between instances. It looks like nothing will be in place to stop players in a losing battle transfering to a different instance. Where's the pride in that? With the mentality of todays MMO players, you just know they will take the easy option instead of facing the difficult option of trying to turn the tide of battle.

 

  Epicent

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 671

Die clickers Die!!!

3/21/13 10:12:31 AM#76
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by rygard49

Obviously the announced faction unlocks at level 50 is a hot topic amongst the PvP community. What do you all think, is faction pride dead now? Will this decision have no effect at all? Will faction pride have as big an effect on AvA as some think it will?

I heartily disagree with the decision to open up the borders at level 50. I feel that it was pandering, that it goes against the original design that attracted me to the game, and that it will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the faction pride they were seeking to foster. All for the sake of the PvE players.

However, I also don't think it necessarily destroys the potential for AvA to be great feature. It remains to be seen what the long term consequences of this decision will be.

It's great for RP's and PVE's, now we have two more fation areas to explore even though they are instanced versions. The PVP's can go there but only for PVE lol and they won't see the otrher faction.

PVE in other faction areas and our own fation area plus PVE in Cyrodiil = win for PVE's.

How is this great for pvers. How is it in the slightest way realistic that you are in someone elses nation and never see any of them. I cant even begin to state how stupid this is.

  Boreas

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 24

3/21/13 10:28:46 AM#77
The term "faction pride" is cropping up a lot in recent discussions. What do you mean by it?
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3805

3/21/13 12:05:41 PM#78
Originally posted by Boreas
The term "faction pride" is cropping up a lot in recent discussions. What do you mean by it?

Just what it sounds like: you actually care about how your alliance is faring in Cyrodiil and the succes or failure of your alliance feel like they're your own successes and failures. You care enough that when the call goes out that one of the other alliances is making a major push and reinforcements are needed, you drop whatever PVE you were doing and rush to defend.

At least, that was how it worked DaOC... we'll see if they can pull it off in this new solo-centric MMO age.

 

Edit: According to one dev, there is no "co-op." That seems to be a misconception started by a Massively writer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrflK6An6Y&list=UUpu8dLHavjMi1a5jgT9ycMA 12:30 of the video.

  Boreas

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 24

3/21/13 5:59:10 PM#79
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Boreas
The term "faction pride" is cropping up a lot in recent discussions. What do you mean by it?

Just what it sounds like: you actually care about how your alliance is faring in Cyrodiil and the succes or failure of your alliance feel like they're your own successes and failures. You care enough that when the call goes out that one of the other alliances is making a major push and reinforcements are needed, you drop whatever PVE you were doing and rush to defend.

At least, that was how it worked DaOC... we'll see if they can pull it off in this new solo-centric MMO age.

 

Edit: According to one dev, there is no "co-op." That seems to be a misconception started by a Massively writer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrflK6An6Y&list=UUpu8dLHavjMi1a5jgT9ycMA 12:30 of the video.

Thank you for explaining.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create incentives that motivate players to support their faction rather than hoping for some kind of fantasy nationalism?

It also sounds like the idea of faction pride assumes that PvP is the player's priority, if he is expected to "drop whatever PvE [he] was doing and rush to defend." Would you also hope for "guild pride", where players immediatly drop out of PvP engagements when it is time for a guild event?

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3805

3/21/13 10:01:20 PM#80
Originally posted by Boreas
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Boreas
The term "faction pride" is cropping up a lot in recent discussions. What do you mean by it?

Just what it sounds like: you actually care about how your alliance is faring in Cyrodiil and the succes or failure of your alliance feel like they're your own successes and failures. You care enough that when the call goes out that one of the other alliances is making a major push and reinforcements are needed, you drop whatever PVE you were doing and rush to defend.

At least, that was how it worked DaOC... we'll see if they can pull it off in this new solo-centric MMO age.

 

Edit: According to one dev, there is no "co-op." That seems to be a misconception started by a Massively writer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGrflK6An6Y&list=UUpu8dLHavjMi1a5jgT9ycMA 12:30 of the video.

Thank you for explaining.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create incentives that motivate players to support their faction rather than hoping for some kind of fantasy nationalism?

It also sounds like the idea of faction pride assumes that PvP is the player's priority, if he is expected to "drop whatever PvE [he] was doing and rush to defend." Would you also hope for "guild pride", where players immediatly drop out of PvP engagements when it is time for a guild event?

The DAoC game play is hard to explain. You had to be there I guess. It was all about the RvR...and there was great PvE. Sounds like a contradiction but it worked well. Also, Guild events 99% of the time were RvR events.

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