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General Discussion  » POLL: Cross faction coop and the effect on AvA and "Faction Pride"

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87 posts found
  SavageHorizon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1547

3/20/13 1:40:34 PM#21
Originally posted by DAS1337

Here's a good question I'd love the supporters to answer.

 

Why does TESO have faction locks at all?

 

They made up some BS story about a three faction war that never happened in ES lore.  They grouped up racial enemies to fit the BS story.  They locked faction zones and communication.  Then they unlock it at level cap and allow players access to once locked areas?  How does that make any sense?  AND you can now group and communicate with your enemies?  Oh yeah, but only in an instance with zero threat of opposing force in OPPOSING lands.

 

Why have locks at all?  Unlock everything.  Allow players to choose their race and starting area.  Revamp the new player experience and disband factions.  Create three factions based on ES lore and allow your players to freely choose between any of them.  Now your IP fanatics are happy, your PvP'ers don't have some BS story that means nothing, your PvE'ers get what they want, and in the end of it all, IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

 

Oh look.  I'm not a game developer, but I just thought of a drastically better idea off the TOP OF MY HEAD.  

Hey i would gladly take that option and bring back normal servers but the fact is it's not going to happen, it's pointless even mentioning it. As it is now, i'm happy to be able to PVE in the other faction areas after all the PVP's still have Cyrodiil. Seeing other faction NPC's and leaders on my Khajiit will be great especially while two-boxing and RPing.

 

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  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/20/13 1:45:29 PM#22
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by DAS1337

Here's a good question I'd love the supporters to answer.

 

Why does TESO have faction locks at all?

 

They made up some BS story about a three faction war that never happened in ES lore.  They grouped up racial enemies to fit the BS story.  They locked faction zones and communication.  Then they unlock it at level cap and allow players access to once locked areas?  How does that make any sense?  AND you can now group and communicate with your enemies?  Oh yeah, but only in an instance with zero threat of opposing force in OPPOSING lands.

 

Why have locks at all?  Unlock everything.  Allow players to choose their race and starting area.  Revamp the new player experience and disband factions.  Create three factions based on ES lore and allow your players to freely choose between any of them.  Now your IP fanatics are happy, your PvP'ers don't have some BS story that means nothing, your PvE'ers get what they want, and in the end of it all, IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

 

Oh look.  I'm not a game developer, but I just thought of a drastically better idea off the TOP OF MY HEAD.  

 True, we all just want another PvE game to burn through for a couple months anyway. Why even put AvA in now since nobody wants it anyway.

People are still playing Skyrim and even Oblivion.  Those are single player games.  If they did it right from the beginning, you could easily waste years of time in TESO.

  geremady

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 35

3/20/13 1:46:00 PM#23

Faction Pride left the building in the early 2000s.

Dont expect it to come back big time.

The times they are a-changing.

  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1087

3/20/13 1:47:50 PM#24
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by DAS1337

Here's a good question I'd love the supporters to answer.

 

Why does TESO have faction locks at all?

 

They made up some BS story about a three faction war that never happened in ES lore.  They grouped up racial enemies to fit the BS story.  They locked faction zones and communication.  Then they unlock it at level cap and allow players access to once locked areas?  How does that make any sense?  AND you can now group and communicate with your enemies?  Oh yeah, but only in an instance with zero threat of opposing force in OPPOSING lands.

 

Why have locks at all?  Unlock everything.  Allow players to choose their race and starting area.  Revamp the new player experience and disband factions.  Create three factions based on ES lore and allow your players to freely choose between any of them.  Now your IP fanatics are happy, your PvP'ers don't have some BS story that means nothing, your PvE'ers get what they want, and in the end of it all, IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

 

Oh look.  I'm not a game developer, but I just thought of a drastically better idea off the TOP OF MY HEAD.  

 True, we all just want another PvE game to burn through for a couple months anyway. Why even put AvA in now since nobody wants it anyway.

People are still playing Skyrim and even Oblivion.  Those are single player games.  If they did it right from the beginning, you could easily waste years of time in TESO.

 Looks like it is pretty much going to be a single player game anyway.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

 
OP  3/20/13 1:48:02 PM#25
Originally posted by DAS1337

Here's a good question I'd love the supporters to answer.

 

Why does TESO have faction locks at all?

 

They made up some BS story about a three faction war that never happened in ES lore.  They grouped up racial enemies to fit the BS story.  They locked faction zones and communication.  Then they unlock it at level cap and allow players access to once locked areas?  How does that make any sense?  AND you can now group and communicate with your enemies?  Oh yeah, but only in an instance with zero threat of opposing force in OPPOSING lands.

 

Why have locks at all?  Unlock everything.  Allow players to choose their race and starting area.  Revamp the new player experience and disband factions.  Create three factions based on ES lore and allow your players to freely choose between any of them.  Now your IP fanatics are happy, your PvP'ers don't have some BS story that means nothing, your PvE'ers get what they want, and in the end of it all, IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

 

Oh look.  I'm not a game developer, but I just thought of a drastically better idea off the TOP OF MY HEAD.  

Faction locks create a primal 'Us vs Them' mentality which translates well for large scale pvp. It puts emotion into your choice of race, and pride when you see your faction doing well. You see this in every faction based game from WoW to Rift to DAoC. People in the WoW community wear their faction logos outside the game as badges of pride.

Having free, open factions doesn't really create that same mentality or pride. It makes the aggressing faction's actions less egregious when you might be grouping together later.

Having said that, with the current design announcements I feel that they might as well do what you detailed above and be better off for it. Faction locking is an all or nothing type of design feature, and changing it at any level compeletely devalues it.

  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/20/13 1:49:31 PM#26
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by DAS1337

Here's a good question I'd love the supporters to answer.

 

Why does TESO have faction locks at all?

 

They made up some BS story about a three faction war that never happened in ES lore.  They grouped up racial enemies to fit the BS story.  They locked faction zones and communication.  Then they unlock it at level cap and allow players access to once locked areas?  How does that make any sense?  AND you can now group and communicate with your enemies?  Oh yeah, but only in an instance with zero threat of opposing force in OPPOSING lands.

 

Why have locks at all?  Unlock everything.  Allow players to choose their race and starting area.  Revamp the new player experience and disband factions.  Create three factions based on ES lore and allow your players to freely choose between any of them.  Now your IP fanatics are happy, your PvP'ers don't have some BS story that means nothing, your PvE'ers get what they want, and in the end of it all, IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

 

Oh look.  I'm not a game developer, but I just thought of a drastically better idea off the TOP OF MY HEAD.  

Hey i would gladly take that option and bring back normal servers but the fact is it's not going to happen, it's pointless even mentioning it. As it is now, i'm happy to be able to PVE in the other faction areas after all the PVP's still have Cyrodiil. Seeing other faction NPC's and leaders on my Khajiit will be great especially while two-boxing and RPing.

 

How about an alternate solution?  Do what has been done by many MMO's in the past.  Let's use WoW for example.  You can go to enemy lands, but you can't attack others unless they attack you first.  Also, only in contested zones.  This allows you to travel there, see opposing players and NPC's, and also allows you to quest there via frontier land NPC's in outposts or on PvP border towns.

 

Oh wow, solution found.  Again, off the top of my head.  It's been done in other games, why not this one?  It would make everyone happy and AGAIN, it would make sense.

 

Are there not stormclaok and Imperial camps littered in enemy territory in Skyrim?  Yes there are.  I mean, it's right there for the taking, how can they miss what is so obvious?

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

 
OP  3/20/13 1:50:14 PM#27
Originally posted by Distopia
Why do you need constraining rules to have faction pride?

For the same reason you need any rules at all. Rules dictate behavior.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 1:53:34 PM#28

If I ever find myself so needing my hand held that I need a developer to create forced pride, I will quit the genre as its no longer a RPG anymore.

The very idea that I cannot have any pride in my faction unless I can never see other faction members playing,see their lands, or that races must be segregated is mind boggling and is no wonder that such a feature was abandond by the genre as quickly as it came into it.

Even the creators of the feature said they did it so their "players" wouldnt be confused who the enemey is...something other games didnt feel the need to do because their developers werent so handicapped they couldnt think of a way to make it obvious...

I mean really, did ANYONE in games like SWG have an issue seeing who was an Imperial and who was a Rebel?!? lol...sure didnt hear about any "pride" issues in that or any other game. Hell, even WoW, a game I HATE had no shortage of people screaming out "FOR THE HORDE" as they charged into PvP.

Forced (read Fake) pride, it shows its true colors when even slightly challenged.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 1:55:38 PM#29
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Distopia
Why do you need constraining rules to have faction pride?

For the same reason you need any rules at all. Rules dictate behavior.

 Yet games without those rules had faction pride. But you are right, their rules have dictated your behavior and inability to grow beyond them even after all these years. Sad to think that you havent been proud of anything in any MMOs since then, you missed so much because of them and THAT is the worst thing about it all.

  SavageHorizon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1547

3/20/13 1:55:54 PM#30
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by DAS1337

Here's a good question I'd love the supporters to answer.

 

Why does TESO have faction locks at all?

 

They made up some BS story about a three faction war that never happened in ES lore.  They grouped up racial enemies to fit the BS story.  They locked faction zones and communication.  Then they unlock it at level cap and allow players access to once locked areas?  How does that make any sense?  AND you can now group and communicate with your enemies?  Oh yeah, but only in an instance with zero threat of opposing force in OPPOSING lands.

 

Why have locks at all?  Unlock everything.  Allow players to choose their race and starting area.  Revamp the new player experience and disband factions.  Create three factions based on ES lore and allow your players to freely choose between any of them.  Now your IP fanatics are happy, your PvP'ers don't have some BS story that means nothing, your PvE'ers get what they want, and in the end of it all, IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

 

Oh look.  I'm not a game developer, but I just thought of a drastically better idea off the TOP OF MY HEAD.  

Hey i would gladly take that option and bring back normal servers but the fact is it's not going to happen, it's pointless even mentioning it. As it is now, i'm happy to be able to PVE in the other faction areas after all the PVP's still have Cyrodiil. Seeing other faction NPC's and leaders on my Khajiit will be great especially while two-boxing and RPing.

 

How about an alternate solution?  Do what has been done by many MMO's in the past.  Let's use WoW for example.  You can go to enemy lands, but you can't attack others unless they attack you first.  Also, only in contested zones.  This allows you to travel there, see opposing players and NPC's, and also allows you to quest there via frontier land NPC's in outposts or on PvP border towns.

 

Oh wow, solution found.  Again, off the top of my head.  It's been done in other games, why not this one?  It would make everyone happy and AGAIN, it would make sense.

Personally i think the mega server has a lot to do with how the game is set up but even so, i'm happy with how it is now. It's not perfect but as a avid PVEr i really don't have a problem.

Yesterdays news was great imo.

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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15111

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/13 1:56:50 PM#31
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Distopia
Why do you need constraining rules to have faction pride?

For the same reason you need any rules at all. Rules dictate behavior.

SWG had open factions yet still had plenty of faction pride. I'd say it rivaled what I saw in DAOC, maybe even surpased it. I also felt the fact that you were allowed to know your enemy, fueled much greater rivalries between the factions. This just looks like sour grapes over being on the losing side of an outcome to me.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

3/20/13 2:00:00 PM#32
Originally posted by JasonJ

If I ever find myself so needing my hand held that I need a developer to create forced pride, I will quit the genre as its no longer a RPG anymore.

The very idea that I cannot have any pride in my faction unless I can never see other faction members playing,see their lands, or that races must be segregated is mind boggling and is no wonder that such a feature was abandond by the genre as quickly as it came into it.

Even the creators of the feature said they did it so their "players" wouldnt be confused who the enemey is...something other games didnt feel the need to do because their developers werent so handicapped they couldnt think of a way to make it obvious...

I mean really, did ANYONE in games like SWG have an issue seeing who was an Imperial and who was a Rebel?!? lol...sure didnt hear about any "pride" issues in that or any other game. Hell, even WoW, a game I HATE had no shortage of people screaming out "FOR THE HORDE" as they charged into PvP.

Forced (read Fake) pride, it shows its true colors when even slightly challenged.

They only screamed out FOR THE HORDE because their friends played horde and they thought it would get a laugh.  Which is what MMO's and young kids are all about today.  They are about being popular and making fun of people to sound cool.  It's literally high school.  

 

How about when the Alliance raided Orgrimmar and no one lifted a finger to defend?  Or how about when someone in general chat suggested a counter attack on their capital and everyone either ignored the request or said that they have better things to do.  That's not faction pride and to believe that the majority of gamers have any idea what faction pride actually means is short sighted in my opinion.

 

So no, you don't NEED to force people to do anything.  However, it's no surprise that while playing DAoC, I have never seen more passionate faction members, of all sides.  All lands were different, all races, all abilities, the appearance of armor and characters, EVERYTHING.

 

A gentle push can be useful.  Not in this instance with TESO though.  You either go all out or you don't do it at all.  They went half way and it makes no sense.

  bobm111

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 156

3/20/13 2:00:41 PM#33
well to be honest i dont understand "faction pride" at all. I can understand pride in ones race in teso but this faction stuff was created mainly for the pvp  side of things.
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

3/20/13 2:03:21 PM#34

There is a line between hardcore and mid core. ESO was on its way to being hardcore and getting in line with the few. In one move they removed their hardcore title. Now you have factions talking and playing together. People telling friends about their AvA raid plans and people spying. Red is Dead is a big part of faction pride and now its lets hug it out. I get some compermise was needed here but they took it to far. 

What would have been better is if every town, outpost and city was a place to take out the other factions NPCs like a giant open world PvE pig out. Raiding capitial cities to take out the leader in a 40 man boss. Something that could have added to faction pride. This game just went carebear. We will see if they can fix this or if it stays the course. Sad, very sad.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/20/13 2:09:45 PM#35
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

There is a line between hardcore and mid core. ESO was on its way to being hardcore and getting in line with the few. In one move they removed their hardcore title. Now you have factions talking and playing together. People telling friends about their AvA raid plans and people spying. Red is Dead is a big part of faction pride and now its lets hug it out. I get some compermise was needed here but they took it to far. 

What would have been better is if every town, outpost and city was a place to take out the other factions NPCs like a giant open world PvE pig out. Raiding capitial cities to take out the leader in a 40 man boss. Something that could have added to faction pride. This game just went carebear. We will see if they can fix this or if it stays the course. Sad, very sad.

Has there even been confirmation if you can talk amongst the other factions yet? You're just saying random things now. And you're phased off from the other faction as far as we've been told when you go there to quest once you're level 50. So its not like some level 1 is gonna see some level 50 from the other faction. Did you just forget about the Mega-Server and phasing they do? This isnt a totally open game, there are the mini-servers which is best compared with Dragon Nest. There can people standing where you are but if youre not on the same mini-server you wont see them or be able to talk to them.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

3/20/13 2:14:47 PM#36
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

There is a line between hardcore and mid core. ESO was on its way to being hardcore and getting in line with the few. In one move they removed their hardcore title. Now you have factions talking and playing together. People telling friends about their AvA raid plans and people spying. Red is Dead is a big part of faction pride and now its lets hug it out. I get some compermise was needed here but they took it to far. 

What would have been better is if every town, outpost and city was a place to take out the other factions NPCs like a giant open world PvE pig out. Raiding capitial cities to take out the leader in a 40 man boss. Something that could have added to faction pride. This game just went carebear. We will see if they can fix this or if it stays the course. Sad, very sad.

Has there even been confirmation if you can talk amongst the other factions yet? You're just saying random things now. And you're phased off from the other faction as far as we've been told when you go there to quest once you're level 50. So its not like some level 1 is gonna see some level 50 from the other faction. Did you just forget about the Mega-Server and phasing they do? This isnt a totally open game, there are the mini-servers which is best compared with Dragon Nest. There can people standing where you are but if youre not on the same mini-server you wont see them or be able to talk to them.

Sadly yes....

"Sage assuaged most of my fears, however, when he mentioned that once you hit level 50 and decide to play in another alliance's areas, you'll be able to play with friends in that faction. So at the endgame, things begin to open up and you can group up, chat, and run dungeons with players of other factions. The one area where things remain separate is, of course, the Alliance War in Cyrodiil." - Link

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15111

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/13 2:16:25 PM#37
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

There is a line between hardcore and mid core. ESO was on its way to being hardcore and getting in line with the few. In one move they removed their hardcore title. Now you have factions talking and playing together. People telling friends about their AvA raid plans and people spying. Red is Dead is a big part of faction pride and now its lets hug it out. I get some compermise was needed here but they took it to far. 

What would have been better is if every town, outpost and city was a place to take out the other factions NPCs like a giant open world PvE pig out. Raiding capitial cities to take out the leader in a 40 man boss. Something that could have added to faction pride. This game just went carebear. We will see if they can fix this or if it stays the course. Sad, very sad.

I can't agree with anything you said here, Eve is hardcore ( if we should even apply that term to games) daoc was not, it was midcore (as you put it) comparatively. Factions talking and playing together should have no dictation over the intensity of PVP, as for the most part these two systems are aimed at two completely different players(end game PVE and end-game PVP).

Spying would be no harder between friends with or without the option to speak in game. I also find it odd that someone who is talking about  hardcore (one of the few) etc.. Is complaining about spying in PVP games, that's part of the thrill.

"know your enemy", is an important part of warfare.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1951

3/20/13 2:17:08 PM#38
Originally posted by BadSpock

Elder Scrolls Online is, first and foremost, a PvE Elder Scrolls RPG.

...

I had lost most interest in ESO because it was looking like it was going to be DAOC 2 with an ES skin, but now it is looking more and more like a "true" ES game - but online, and with PvP (AvA) added in a way that makes sense from a MMO perspective and from an ES perspective.

Pretty much this, except the first line sadly. As an ES fan since Arena I wish I could say "Elder Scrolls Online is, first and foremost, a PvE Elder Scrolls RPG." I'd be happy if that'd be the case. It's a shame that they're planning to spoil this great IP into some lame DAoC clone...

And I tried to be optimistic with these new changes as well (like BadSpock with the "but now it is looking more and more like a "true" ES game") but after watching the linked interviews I had to see it's still on the full pvp route.

So (at least for me) nothing changed, I'll probably buy it, put the box next to the other ES boxes, maybe play a bit, but that's all. And it's sad, there are so many possibilities in an ES Online game... instead of those what we have here: 'faction pride' poll... Seriously? Lol.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

 
OP  3/20/13 2:18:43 PM#39
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Distopia
Why do you need constraining rules to have faction pride?

For the same reason you need any rules at all. Rules dictate behavior.

SWG had open factions yet still had plenty of faction pride. I'd say it rivaled what I saw in DAOC, maybe even surpased it. I also felt the fact that you were allowed to know your enemy, fueled much greater rivalries between the factions. This just looks like sour grapes over being on the losing side of an outcome to me.

For SWG, I'll have to take your word for it. I played the game for several months, but I never experienced a vast scope of faction pride during my time there. I do agree that knowing your enemy fuels a greater rivalry, as it was in DAoC.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

3/20/13 2:20:05 PM#40
If you guys want a truly sandbox experience, why not play Everquest Next then? They've already said it's going to be the largest sandbox MMO of all time, and barring delays, this and EQ-Next are set to release this year.
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