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General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » Shroud of the Avatar: Garriott Opines: 'Most game designers really just suck.'

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61 posts found
  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1229

3/20/13 9:46:55 AM#21
Richard Garriot's "Everyone else sucks"
  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

3/20/13 10:04:33 AM#22

To be a competent programmer, artist, designer when he started making games was a lot easier than it is now.

Some indie game devs are all of these things and I think he is overlooking some great talent. AAA devs specialize because the games are so complex, you want a GREAT artist you dont want an artist that is OK and can do a bit of programming and has some alright design ideas too.

I think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/20/13 10:09:15 AM#23

Garriott Opines: 'Most game designers really just suck.'

<snark> Well, he would certainly know. What kind of bars do these guys go to? </ping>

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 10:12:35 AM#24
Originally posted by SlickShoes

I think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.

 Define "good".

Company makes a game with zero that is new.

Company makes a game with many new innovative ideas.

Both can be good or bad but do you lend weight to the new ideas over the old?

A great game with no new ideas does nothing to push gameplay forward...a bad or bland game with a ton of new ideas will be built on in the future pushing gaming to new places.

Everyone he listed as great developers did just that, pushed gaming forward to where it is today.

Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.

  Vannor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2973

3/20/13 10:18:01 AM#25

Hmm not a good attitude.

I know plenty of people that have done game design degrees and come up with some fantastic stuff. You can't learn to be a designer? That's rediculous. Studying is all about seeing, adapting, copying, learning, experiencing. The more you do something, the better you get at it. The more ideas that are thrown at you, the more you know what is possible, what works and what doesn't. Sure, creative degrees arn't the same as more text book ones but people on them benefit from the experience of lots of different personalities, ideas and opinions working towards similar goals on lots of different projects. It's the best way to get a decent portfolio and get some proper experience in industry situations.. and possibly placements or internships. There's just a hell of a lot of competition these days. Back when Garriott was nerding on D&D and making his first computer rpgs the industry was about 1/1000th the size it is now (yes, I'm just throwing a factless number out there but you should get my point).

This guy is trying to appeal to the old-school loving 'haters' out there. Vocal on the internet, minor in the grand scheme of things.

If this game turns out to be total turd, he's going to look very very stupid. Confidence is a good thing, arrogance isn't.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/20/13 10:18:25 AM#26
Originally posted by JasonJ
Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.

Well, hang around long enough and RG's personal game creds will qualify for both parts of your list.

Maybe he's got another stale idea or two hidden away in that notebook paper.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  azmundai

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1422

3/20/13 10:19:58 AM#27


Originally posted by JasonJ

Originally posted by SlickShoes I think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.

Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.


He's touching on his own (must ... resist) ego, nothing more. We'll see how he deals with the gaming community that exists now as opposed to the gaming community that existed then. It's a very different world. We've all seen where blind ego leads games these days ... if his first re-steps are any indication, I feel sorry for his investors.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

3/20/13 10:23:10 AM#28
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by SlickShoes

I think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.

 Define "good".

Company makes a game with zero that is new.

Company makes a game with many new innovative ideas.

Both can be good or bad but do you lend weight to the new ideas over the old?

A great game with no new ideas does nothing to push gameplay forward...a bad or bland game with a ton of new ideas will be built on in the future pushing gaming to new places.

Everyone he listed as great developers did just that, pushed gaming forward to where it is today.

Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.

Game Designers don't just make MMO's he is talking about the industry as a whole, and if you believe it's that devoid of talent you must have been living under a rock.

The guys he mentions like molyneux are legends but they have not produced anything remotely good for a generation of gaming now. That XBLA Fable game really pushed the boundaries of gaming eh?

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 10:29:22 AM#29
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by JasonJ
Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.

Well, hang around long enough and RG's personal game creds will qualify for both parts of your list.

Maybe he's got another stale idea or two hidden away in that notebook paper.

 

 It already does. UO was a great game and Tabula Rasa was a bad one...however, Tabula Rasa was at least innovative and very different from UO which shows he is a good designer, coming up with new ideas and not stuck in the past like ooh...say, everyone from DaoC which cant seem to get out of that tiny little box they created 13 years ago.

  User Deleted
3/20/13 10:30:09 AM#30
Garriott's being far, far too kind to today's whale hunters...err, I mean game designers. But not all is lost, at least they can still give it away.
  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2293

3/20/13 10:30:57 AM#31
Being a prodigy must be an awful burden.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 10:31:58 AM#32
Originally posted by SlickShoes

Game Designers don't just make MMO's he is talking about the industry as a whole, and if you believe it's that devoid of talent you must have been living under a rock.

The guys he mentions like molyneux are legends but they have not produced anything remotely good for a generation of gaming now. That XBLA Fable game really pushed the boundaries of gaming eh?

 He didnt say its DEVIOD of talen, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.

Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!

  Teh_Axi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 403

3/20/13 10:34:01 AM#33

1. He's right.

2. He's one of them.

3. He should just stick to what he knows best, rehashing the only half decent game he's ever made. (which by todays standard would just be a garbage quality browser game).

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

3/20/13 10:36:56 AM#34
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by SlickShoes

Game Designers don't just make MMO's he is talking about the industry as a whole, and if you believe it's that devoid of talent you must have been living under a rock.

The guys he mentions like molyneux are legends but they have not produced anything remotely good for a generation of gaming now. That XBLA Fable game really pushed the boundaries of gaming eh?

 He didnt say its DEVIOD of talen, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.

Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!

If you only look at AAA games then this is probably true, some of the best games of the last few years have been from small studios or individual guys with the vision and drive to do something awesome.

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

3/20/13 10:38:46 AM#35
It's also funny to read people saying that Blizzard are devoid of talent because look at Starcraft it's just more of the same. Garriots next game is just him going back to his happy place and making a sort of MMO that looks like its 2001.

  psiic

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 550

3/20/13 10:42:48 AM#36

Woohoo BRAVO!!!

 

I've always said this myself this whole new generation of " Tech School " game designers are total and complete morons. 

 

They learn to code the exact same way from the exact same textbooks, and the exact same game design software.

 

They have zero creativity and even less problem solving ability, and they almost never try and build the better mousetrap.

 

LOL and from reading the comments here, it is a bit obvious that we have some of those tech school designers among our posters.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 10:49:45 AM#37
Originally posted by SlickShoes
Originally posted by JasonJ

 He didnt say its DEVIOD of talent, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.

Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!

If you only look at AAA games then this is probably true, some of the best games of the last few years have been from small studios or individual guys with the vision and drive to do something awesome.

 Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2726

I actually still like MMORPGs

3/20/13 10:53:00 AM#38
I can't disagree with him more. Glad I decided not to fund him. We don't need more assholes in the industry. He should have stayed in his hole of shame after Tabula Rasa.

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

3/20/13 10:53:47 AM#39
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by SlickShoes
Originally posted by JasonJ

 He didnt say its DEVIOD of talent, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.

Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!

If you only look at AAA games then this is probably true, some of the best games of the last few years have been from small studios or individual guys with the vision and drive to do something awesome.

 Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.

Are you really a member here and asking this question? MMORPG.com forums are PvP forums.

  DJMantiss

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 103

3/20/13 10:59:05 AM#40

Richard is good at the story and lore, for him to claim he has any ability to innovate is silly. Tabula Rasa was his worst mistake and that was dead in beta/alpha. A good deal of us in that beta just laughed at the horrible game-play and called it before it even released.

 

Obviously the Ultima series was "good", I'll never call it amazing or great as I don't believe it is. The primary thing that made UO great was the ability to touch, move, interact with almost everything in the world in some way. 

 

Space must have scrambled his brain beause he simply isn't on the cutting edge of games anymore and his kick-starter is proof. Yeah he got a bunch of funding for a small indie game, but he won't be returning to prime-time because he lacks the innovation and skill set to meet today's expectations.

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