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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If you build a wall in 1 hour how long should it take to destroy the wall

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38 posts found

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5242

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/19/13 2:07:28 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

3.  How long does it take to build in the first place?  I've played games where your structures were destroyed, it was fun the first few times.  But the 4th time I had to rebuild that wall, that was boring now.  I didn't want to do it anymore, what was the point of me rebuilding it.  I guess this is tied into point number 3 as well

I think this is the crux of the matter.

If it takes a lot of time to find materials and build the structures, after a while of rebuilding and rebuilding it will eventually become a "why bother" scenario.

Isn't the solution obvious? Just make building fast & easy.

We are talking about games here, you can make the mechanics anyway you want.

 This is where point #1 comes into play.  If you are targeting builders for your audience, fast and easy won't cut it.  They want detailed, not necessarily time consuming, but highly customizable.

If builders are the target audience, then why let the walls be destroyed at all? If combat is an afterthoguht, may as well not doing it (like Tales of the Desert).

Or conversely, just make destruction slow. Give the wall a billion health.

 Thats why I asked the first question, "Who is your target Audience"

All other questions in the game should be reflected on this first one.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 77

3/19/13 2:13:44 PM#22
isn't the solution a bit easier? A wall is for defense, but can hold offensive tools on it, such as turrets. They can destroy the wall, and the wall can destroy them, fun all around.

The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5274

3/19/13 2:15:21 PM#23

Unnopposed walls should be destroyed very quickly. Fifteen minutes or less.

Opposed very quickly to not at all.

Walls should be repairable until destroyed.

It should cost about  as much in materials to tear down a wall as to build it.

Siege gear should be salvageable with some loss of materials.

Destroyed walls should also be salvageable with greater loss of materials.

Salvage should not refund gold. Gold was expended in labor to build the items.


"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo


Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7845

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/19/13 2:19:49 PM#24
Originally posted by Rusque

Hm, I think that fighting over player built housing is an elaborate tug of war contruct that has no meaning when all is said and done.  Aka, pvp is once again . . . meaningless.

I guess that's why I prefer battle ground type pvp. I enjoy pvp for the sake of it. You got your team, I've got my team, let's punch each other in the face for a while.


You are confusing... you seem to complain about PvP being 'meaningless' when fighting to protect something you have invested heavily in, then you say like doing it 'for the sake of it'...

How does PvPing just for 'the sake of it' make it more meaningful then fighting for something you or your guild have built?



Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18485

3/19/13 2:26:18 PM#25
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

3.  How long does it take to build in the first place?  I've played games where your structures were destroyed, it was fun the first few times.  But the 4th time I had to rebuild that wall, that was boring now.  I didn't want to do it anymore, what was the point of me rebuilding it.  I guess this is tied into point number 3 as well

I think this is the crux of the matter.

If it takes a lot of time to find materials and build the structures, after a while of rebuilding and rebuilding it will eventually become a "why bother" scenario.

Isn't the solution obvious? Just make building fast & easy.

We are talking about games here, you can make the mechanics anyway you want.

Oh yes that is the obvious solution but is it a desirable solution.

If it's easy to tear down a structure and take its materials but also easy to build because the builder has access to materials then is that really going to be fun for anyone?

So you log in, open your house panel,see ,it's destroyed, hit "rebuild" and bam it's built. you do it again the next day and the next day, ad infinitum.



Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 2231

3/19/13 2:29:49 PM#26
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by Rusque

Hm, I think that fighting over player built housing is an elaborate tug of war contruct that has no meaning when all is said and done.  Aka, pvp is once again . . . meaningless.

I guess that's why I prefer battle ground type pvp. I enjoy pvp for the sake of it. You got your team, I've got my team, let's punch each other in the face for a while.


Wait, what?


Let me get this straight.  You think fighting over SOMETHING has no meaning...


But you enjoy fighting for the sake of fighting, which has even less meaning, correct?


How does anything that you just said make any sense at all?


/mind blown

It's not really that complicated.

Doing something for the sake of fun is well . . . fun.  And so it has meaning in real life, to you the person being entertained.

Doing something with a task in mind when that task is utterly sisyphean is . . . amazingly pointless. This is only magnified when the task you are accomplishing is virtual.

Now, if you're enjoying the actual pvp, then yes you are having fun. But then you didn't need the wall did you? Wall goes up, wall comes down, wall goes up, wall goes down - ad infinitum. Maybe as well just skip the wall and do the fun part . . . the pvp.

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/19/13 2:30:31 PM#27

"I've heard suggestions like scheduling attack times and the like, but I've never liked the artificial restriction of not being able to attack."

It's no more artificial than not being able to defend because you have a life outside the game.  I think that some form of tag-to-seige system is something more games (and not just PvP games) should consider.

I think you should give this some more thought.  There's a seperation betweeen strategic infrastructure (big, long-term investments) and tactical infrastructure (within-that-game-session investments).


Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 826

3/19/13 2:32:20 PM#28
Originally posted by asdar

I've heard suggestions like scheduling attack times and the like, but I've never liked the artificial restriction of not being able to attack.

This very mechanic works very well in EVE. In short any attack is split in two. You first attack and deal a lot af damage putting the structure into "reinforced" mode. The length of the reinforced mode is based on the ammount of a certain type of fuel present in the structure when it enters reinforced mode. The timer can be nearly up to two days max. Once the structure exits reinforced it can be killed off or repaired, depending on what happens at that time.

Is this an artificial limitation? Yes. Does it work? Oh, yes!


Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/11
Posts: 568

Ahh devil ether.

3/19/13 2:56:51 PM#29
Destroyable player built landmarks such as walls or houses or what have you has got to be a huge mindcramp for developers.  Probably why you see it so seldom in an mmo.  The act of rebuilding more than once would be so tedious for players, unless the act of rebuilding took hardly any time at all.  Then you have how long does it take for the destroyed landmark to disappear utterly.  Nobody wants a landscape littered with destroyed houses sitting there forever.  Say I build a house, it took me a month and the cost of materials to build.  I go on a 2 week fishing vacation in Canada and come back to find the entire thing gone completely.  I suppose a temporary account suspension could deal with situations like that where you have a notification system that I will be on vacation for x amount of time and nothing disappears in that time. 

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2269

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

3/19/13 3:00:55 PM#30

It can take  days, months or even years to build a wall.

5 minutes and the right explosives and the work is undone.

  User Deleted
3/19/13 3:03:47 PM#31

Why can't I listen to Pink Floyd while I'm at work...


It's just another brick in the wall...


Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/13
Posts: 211

3/19/13 3:08:25 PM#32
Much easier to destroy than to build, I would say however much time it takes to build, it will take half the time to destroy

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2667

3/19/13 3:09:04 PM#33
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by birdycephon
In most cases its a lot easier to destroy than to build.


Not in Pink Floyd World...


Mother do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother do you think they'll like this song?
Mother do you think they'll try to break my balls?
Oooh, ahh
Mother should I build the wall?
Mother should I run for President?
Mother should I trust the government?
Mother will they put me in the firing mine?
Oooh ahh,
Is it just a waste of time?

Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.
Mama's gonna make all your nightmares come true.
Mama's gonna put all her fears into you.
Mama's gonna keep you right here under her wing.
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing.
Mama's gonna keep baby cozy and warm.
Ooooh baby, ooooh baby, oooooh baby,
Of course mama's gonna help build the wall.

Mother do you think she's good enough, for me?
Mother do you think she's dangerous, to me?
Mother will she tear your little boy apart?
Ooooh ah,
Mother will she break my heart?

Hush now baby, baby don't you cry.
Mama's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
Mama won't let anyone dirty get through.
Mama's gonna wait up until you get in.
Mama will always find out where you've been.
Mama's gonna keep baby healthy and clean.
Ooooh baby, oooh baby, oooh baby,
You'll always be baby to me.

Mother, did it need to be so high?


+ 1 for causing a flashback.


+1 as well, haven't listened it since ages so I guess it's Floyd time now :)

and -1 for the misinterpretation, Pink has built the Wall in his whole life, and at the end he recognized it and wrecks it down (or at least I like to read this way, some optimism after the heavy journey with him), so it's long build, quick destroy. The exact reason why builders stay away from sandboxes with open ffa pvp :)


Hmm on a second thought you weren't talk about efficiency and speed, it was about "easy"... my bad, then it's correct, much easier to build your Wall than break it down... But the analogy with games still doesn't fit, since only you can destroy your Wall, a bunch of 'burn jita' A-holes cannot do it if you don't want to :)


Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/10/08
Posts: 58

3/19/13 3:17:32 PM#34

Wow, lots of good thoughts here. An inteligent disussion on an interesting topic and no flaming. Wait, I'm I still on the internet ?

Seriously, I think a lot of it comes down to why? Why are you building and why destroy it. If we are talking about just player housing and crafting facilities than it should probally not be destroyable { is that a word?}. It will only annoy people and would serve no real purpose. And if it can be destroyed some pycho will do, just for fun. But if we are talking about control points that's another matter. Remember, historically most castles were not just built for defense. They were also made to control an area and as a base to launch attacks from. If one kingdom build a castle on there border, there neighbors could consider it an act of war. If it was within attack range. So if you build bases that gives you control over an area, than destroying it makes sense.

What might be interesting is if you/your faction/kingdom/whatever controls an area then any player house is not attackable. But if you lose control, {your base is captured/destroyed} than your player housing becomes vulnerable. Gives you a reason to build/repair/defend something and gives the enemy faction a reason to attack.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/03/08
Posts: 329

3/19/13 3:17:55 PM#35
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
That destruction also applies to the attackers being killed... Another method of inhibiting foes from kamikaze attacking you is to take away their ability to try again without consequence. If the foe loses something or has to wait ever how long between siege attempts if he dies, he'll be less likely to stress your defense.

If the foes being flung at your walls are just gonna respawn, than your walls may as well to, there needs to be a balance between offense and defense in many respects.

This BahamutKaiser dude knows his stuff regarding the topic. He has some great post replies.

Would be nice if more devs put as much thought into their pvp.


Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 3:48:05 PM#36
Originally posted by Zorgo

It can take  days, months or even years to build a wall.

5 minutes and the right explosives and the work is undone.

We are talking about games, not the real world. You can design to ANY time scale.


Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 307

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/19/13 5:51:28 PM#37

The idea that explosives or magic easily beat fortifications is silly, it is partially true, but the real truth is once gunpowder becomes an asset, they don't even need strong structures because they can gun you down with ease, the attacker spends months in trenches trying to get close... The high ground and fortification puts offense and defense on the fortifications side in spades. Even magic blasting is equally met with magic defense... Naturally you'd expect stationary magic fortifications to be superior to mobile attack magics.

As for attacking while players arn't present. I feel battle MMOs should be including a lot more NPC assistance. Making your castle should be like making your own level, you place archers and wall soldiers on the defense, and mix NPC attackers into the attacking forces too. A good fortification should take time to beat, even several engagements. They may pace it out til the player is able to respond, and force the defender to engage the foe directly to stop the attack before their forces are depleted. Taking a structure should not be about breaking the walls, it should be about eliminating the forces. In this way your focused on breaking only infiltration points to take away their defensive advantage, and once you win you can claim the castle and its value instead of building your own.

That may not work for every game, but you can come up with creative alternatives for whatever you desire.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.


Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2372

3/20/13 10:56:55 AM#38

I don't think a ratio is as important as another aspect, for MMORPGs. Although it still does have some importance.

That other aspect being the time frame of breaching defensive barriers, compared to the ability of players to be online to defend what's behind the barrier.

So I think you need a system that takes quite a while to breach walls, allowing the defenders to "be there" when the wall comes down by being able to predict the time. Furthermore, I think it would be a good idea to allow the defenders to manipulate this time to some degree, so that the attackers can't control it into a best case for themselves.

Just to add, in this case you'd also need a means for the attackers to "be there" in the same way in case of the defenders mounting an assault ouside their walls. I suggest here that attackers be able to build a mini-fortress to defend themselves just the same way. But this gets tricky, if you follow through the thinking. I'd talk re about it, but no one ever seems to want to get into my ideas much, so da'hellwithit.

Any ratio needs to consider what you want the game to be like. Especially in the building, and how that affects what else is going on in the area. I'd just as soon have the building be a major game play source, even if you never come under attack.

Once upon a time....

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