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General Discussion  » player housing in elder scrolls online

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59 posts found
  CthulhuPuffs

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 360

Will consume your soul, yet stay crunchy in milk

3/18/13 10:19:55 PM#41
Originally posted by jimdandy26
I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

Yes lets create an Online Elder Scrolls game, add a bunch of stuff that was never in an ES game (PvP, Race=Faction locks, Segregated Faction areas) and remove things that have been part of ES (player housing, open world exploration, skill based leveling).

Brilliant!

Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

Games Played: Too Many

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/19/13 3:40:16 AM#42
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
Originally posted by jimdandy26
I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

Yes lets create an Online Elder Scrolls game, add a bunch of stuff that was never in an ES game (PvP, Race=Faction locks, Segregated Faction areas) and remove things that have been part of ES (player housing, open world exploration, skill based leveling).

Brilliant!

What? Skill based leveling is still in the game, and you are getting more explorable area per faction than any Elder Scrolls game that has come before. As for housing, last I checked that was introduced with Oblivion, and was only really made a big deal in Skyrim with an extremely buggy Dlc.

As for your detractors, first of all its pretty damn hard to include pvp in a sprg last I checked. The faction and race locks, there was really no reason for before. Now you can make a number of arguments, that they should not have focused so much on pvp, or they should have just made multiplayer Skyrim etc, but you were never going to get that anyway. There are a number of single player things that just do not translate well to a multiplayer setting. The largest one being balance. I mean vanilla Skyrim itself is horribly unbalanced between playstyles, magic for example is extremely underpowered at the high end, and thats generally ok in a single playergame, but would be death for a multiplayer one, especially one that is service based. The limited amount of players for the game that is so heavily supported (2 major dlc, 2 minor dlc plus retarded amounts of player support). The simple fact is, you do not have access to the numbers that they do. I would say that if you honestly think you can do better, then go finagle yourself $50m and get access to the ip and make it.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1478

3/19/13 3:47:46 AM#43


Originally posted by FromHell
Best player housing ever was in SWG, second for me is guild city building in Age of Conan, I hope ESO will have both player housing and guild cities at launch.


Yes nothing more fun then walking in a Star Wars game, on a desert planet and seeing abandoned houses EVERYWHERE......houses all over the place and ruining spawns needed for missions. ^^

Tatooine map, desert planet apart from some remote settlements....overhead map on...."WTF?: looks like the Manhattan streetplan."


SWG housing interior was good, SWG housing exterior was the worst ever created in any MMO.


player housing CAN be good, but they restrict placing them and let enough room for the online 'world' to explore.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

3/19/13 9:24:00 AM#44
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by jimdandy26

Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.

What? You backed up your argument with the idea of "but forums leave this impression" or "But players I play with say this". Which is not only a poor argument, but I can fire off with several completely opposite experiences, much like Iselin did above. Thats why even bringing that into the discussion is pointless.

Originally posted by Iselin

But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

I did. Becuase it was a requirement for feasts and various crafting crafting professions, not to mention nerd points. None of those stopped me from hating, and in later expansions completely stopping, fishing. It got to the point I would rather farm for an hour and buy the mats that I would have spent 30min fishing for than to actually fish. There are many of those activities I just did not enjoy, and really never have in various games.

Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

  Squeak69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 952

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

3/19/13 9:30:12 AM#45
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by jimdandy26

Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.

What? You backed up your argument with the idea of "but forums leave this impression" or "But players I play with say this". Which is not only a poor argument, but I can fire off with several completely opposite experiences, much like Iselin did above. Thats why even bringing that into the discussion is pointless.

Originally posted by Iselin

But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

I did. Becuase it was a requirement for feasts and various crafting crafting professions, not to mention nerd points. None of those stopped me from hating, and in later expansions completely stopping, fishing. It got to the point I would rather farm for an hour and buy the mats that I would have spent 30min fishing for than to actually fish. There are many of those activities I just did not enjoy, and really never have in various games.

Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

. . . .i agree with Caliburn on something . . . . . .?

anyway, some of us actully enjoyed the fishing in WoW some of  us actually enjoy playing a gmae for fun instead of merly to get to the highest level and be the strongest char.

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/19/13 1:18:00 PM#46

All the fanblinded people need to stop trying to defend yet another shallow MMO and realize we had housing 15 years ago, no excuse for not having it today, especially when it was so well integrated into TES games prior.

This is Tortanic all over again...it's...it's...Testanic!

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/19/13 1:21:26 PM#47
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/19/13 1:24:59 PM#48
Originally posted by Xobdnas

All the fanblinded people need to stop trying to defend yet another shallow MMO and realize we had housing 15 years ago, no excuse for not having it today, especially when it was so well integrated into TES games prior.

This is Tortanic all over again...it's...it's...Testanic!

Yep, 15 years ago from the "world simulator". That very same world simulator that the developers themselves had to continuesly restrict because they learned pretty clearly that players are pricks. There is a reason why there has not been a UO2, other developers learned from them. The post mortem is a hell of an eye opener, I recommend you watch it.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 2851

3/19/13 2:52:47 PM#49
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

Hypocrite!!! This from the guy that says if you dont have hard numbers arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless. LOL Jim you should know better LOL

EDIT: this is where you say, Touché! (((puts away his fencing sword))) 

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/19/13 3:02:11 PM#50
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

Hypocrite!!! This from the guy that says if you dont have hard numbers arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless. LOL Jim you should know better LOL

EDIT: this is where you say, Touché! (((puts away his fencing sword))) 

Not at all. I can post half a dozen links (and have in this very argument multiple times) and he will either ignore it completely, or squirm under the excuse that its circumstantial, because no one has ever released anything different. It really is not very hard to read between the lines though. In literally every single thread I have participated, or been directed to, no shred of evidence has been presented that shows its a highly desirable system to have in game, either from a player perspective, or from a monetary one. I would love to be shown otherwise. The best "evidence" are people telling stories about that one time they threw a party in a video game and they got 10 people to show up, or that Eq2 is "wildly successful" counting on housing, which is not even really accurate either.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 2851

3/19/13 3:10:51 PM#51
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

Hypocrite!!! This from the guy that says if you dont have hard numbers arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless. LOL Jim you should know better LOL

EDIT: this is where you say, Touché! (((puts away his fencing sword))) 

Not at all. I can post half a dozen links (and have in this very argument multiple times) and he will either ignore it completely, or squirm under the excuse that its circumstantial, because no one has ever released anything different. It really is not very hard to read between the lines though. In literally every single thread I have participated, or been directed to, no shred of evidence has been presented that shows its a highly desirable system to have in game, either from a player perspective, or from a monetary one. I would love to be shown otherwise. The best "evidence" are people telling stories about that one time they threw a party in a video game and they got 10 people to show up, or that Eq2 is "wildly successful" counting on housing, which is not even really accurate either.

As I said in my post you dismissed there has been lots of games that have pulled it off very well and when I played them even people who didnt think much of that type of content came to play it and often love it. I can link you many posts and games as well where it worked but why would I as you know they are out there as I am sure you could do the same for the other side of this. Its been around a long time and its a fact. It also brings a type of player guilds love the carebear crafter that likes to look after the guild. Who likes to spend their time fiddling with things like making Golden Fish sticks and Pots over just raiding. Even if you dont like player housing you should want it for the type of player it brings to the game. Its not even content that takes away much from the devs time as the players are the ones that tinker with it once the game space has been made for them. 

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/19/13 4:17:30 PM#52
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

As I said in my post you dismissed there has been lots of games that have pulled it off very well and when I played them even people who didnt think much of that type of content came to play it and often love it. I can link you many posts and games as well where it worked but why would I as you know they are out there as I am sure you could do the same for the other side of this. Its been around a long time and its a fact. It also brings a type of player guilds love the carebear crafter that likes to look after the guild. Who likes to spend their time fiddling with things like making Golden Fish sticks and Pots over just raiding. Even if you dont like player housing you should want it for the type of player it brings to the game. Its not even content that takes away much from the devs time as the players are the ones that tinker with it once the game space has been made for them. 

Except all of those points are shown to be false. Those players will often play ANYWAY. WoW alone, the game that has more of those sorts of players than most games have entire populations disproves the point. If housing were required, or even attracted a decent size population then you would see major upticks in population when those features are released, and you don't. Even in the games it "works well" in, its generally only used to initially set up a house, and then only for whatever utility it gives there after. These many many hours of chilling in your living room arranging pictures just do not happen to anything close to the majority.

Besides that, it takes up a ton of time. It must be monitored and supported, just like every other feature that is implemented. Much like tacked on multiplayer, it detracts from the game if it doesn't. Whatever utility needs to be designed around up from, Ie bank vs storage, crafting/drops, anything extra like transportation. They all cost in base dev/art/qa time, but also in future bug testing, as oftentimes even touching things that are completely unrelated cause cause bugs/exploits. Nothing is cheap, or easy, to implement in an mmo. Ever.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/19/13 4:29:44 PM#53


Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Xobdnas All the fanblinded people need to stop trying to defend yet another shallow MMO and realize we had housing 15 years ago, no excuse for not having it today, especially when it was so well integrated into TES games prior. This is Tortanic all over again...it's...it's...Testanic!
Yep, 15 years ago from the "world simulator". That very same world simulator that the developers themselves had to continuesly restrict because they learned pretty clearly that players are pricks. There is a reason why there has not been a UO2, other developers learned from them. The post mortem is a hell of an eye opener, I recommend you watch it.

Where is your antidotalcedical evidence for this statement? Looks like an opinion to me.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/19/13 4:34:11 PM#54
Originally posted by Xobdnas

 

Where is your antidotalcedical evidence for this statement? Looks like an opinion to me.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016629/Classic-Game-Postmortem-Ultima

I hear google is hard.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/19/13 4:48:11 PM#55


Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Xobdnas   Where is your antidotalcedical evidence for this statement? Looks like an opinion to me.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016629/Classic-Game-Postmortem-Ultima

I hear google is hard.


People that are/were in charge will never claim any responsibility for the down trends. UO died BECAUSE they made it safe and cozy with bad expansions and I dont have a link to evidence because I lived it so you have my first hand account.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/19/13 5:04:09 PM#56

With that said I completely agree with you. Give someone an anonymous sandbox with 0 rules and you will see the worst in people. That is a given. But right now were seem to stuck between 0 rules and too many. We need a happy medium. Something that doesn't hold our hand, but rather nudges us in the right direction.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/19/13 5:12:20 PM#57
Originally posted by Xobdnas

People that are/were in charge will never claim any responsibility for the down trends. UO died BECAUSE they made it safe and cozy with bad expansions and I dont have a link to evidence because I lived it so you have my first hand account.

The sub trend says otherwise. Trammel did not come close to killing the game like you and your bretheren claim. In fact the downfall started with the reworking of housing, which is also relevent to this thread. :)

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/19/13 5:22:59 PM#58

MMO changes don't usually see a instant sub drop (although SWG NGE sure did!). It takes time for word to spread. Players also tend to hang onto any bit of hope they can until they realize the changes aren't being retracted, and they have a new option to move to. Then they slowly fade away like sands through and hour glass. Those were the days of their MMO lives they are leaving behind, and with UO it was even more heart wrenching because for so many of them it was their first one.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16594

3/19/13 5:30:44 PM#59
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by jimdandy26
I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

How so?

Its expensive content wise, both in its payout and opportunity. For it to be "relevent" it has to be tied into systems in such a way as to make it something I must use (ala Eq2 for example, which I hated). Besides, as has been gone into with virtually every housing thread ad infinitum, its something that a minorty of players enjoy. It is to pvers what world pvp is to pvpers. Something that is highly cried/asked for, but then rarely utilized.

So if its a feature many PvEers ask for, how is it not worth doing?

Because it only pays for itself in the very long term if it does at all. Paying an artist to make 2 weapons will have much more effect on a game then paying that same artist to make 10 lamps.

Well, my thougth is that elder scrolls fans have always mentioned housing of some sort. Some of the most popular mods are housing/fortress mods.

So putting in a system that allows for die hard players to feel like they have an actual part in the world  is only going to keep them playign the game longer. And in the long run that means a reliable, steady playerbase and income.

I think it makes perfect sense to do it.

I realize this is not skyrim online in any sense of the term but there is a host of rabid elder scrolls fans who have wanted some sort of online multiplayer version of this IP (not all of course) and if Zenimax does it right they will have this group at "housing is in and there is a room for your hireling".

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