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  User Deleted
3/07/13 1:21:10 PM#161
Originally posted by StarI
Originally posted by Dihoru
First off learn to spell.

Second off: Can have does not mean will have and I have yet to hear examples of MMORPGs where you kill something and you get nothing for your troubles and this not being a bug beyond your own opinion which if we'd start admitting as true we'd have to do for everyone around the forums (I can't name one and I've played allot of em including the rather unique case of Entropia Universe which actually would have a reason to give you nothing and yet still does).

 

That's so weak. And now nothing but a waste of time since you seem unable to do any real logical connections in the conversation and instead keep dragging it down to irrelevant personal level. I will leave you with wiki so you can learn more quotes and pretend you're actually smart.

Good, you found spell check at least, shame the phrasing still needs allot of work. Have fun and btw I used examples from other places not just wiki (and the quotes you find there can also be found in many other places) which is allot more than you've done, nice troll attempt if that's what it was if not, sad.

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2170

3/07/13 2:04:34 PM#162
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Korn42

Hi all,

just to clarify, in the current state of the game, "classical" FFA PvP does not play a major role, largely due to griefing and zerging concerns.

We have developed a great solution for territory based GvG and structured territory based open PvP that we are quite proud of and of which we think is one of the best innovations of our game.

However, this is something that we do not want to disclose in a piece by piece manner, but rather at a later stage in a proper dev blog or video.

-Dominik

If I understand the explanations in this thread and the copy on the Albion website correctly:

  • - warfare is guild vs guild
  • - guilds can attack adjacent territories
  • - caps will be placed in combat areas to prevent zerging
  • - a guild of 5 or so players can effectively hold and manage a territory
  • - players can build their own villages on their territory

 

If you can pull that off, you're sitting on a goldmine.

 

 

It seems like they'd have to use some sort of Battlegrounds system for this.

It's getting so that I hate to apply terms to things, but this doesn't seem like an open world Sandbox to me. That's not to say that it can't be a fine game, I'm still very curious about the specifics and the game as a whole. It just doesn't sound like the Sandbox game I'd really like to see. But lacking having one of them, a good alternative still might be in play.

From my perspective, the ideal situation is to make warfare cost a boatload, so that attacking someone is costly and weekens you to other possibilities. While a 5 person guild can use this tactically for defense, but not claim a dominant position on their own. I see that scenario (a mere 5 person guild gaining a dominant power position) as bad, and think that numbers and cooperation and all the player to player interaction is as important in building a social powerhouse as resources are.

Smart people > Something awful/reddit zerg :P

 

The game would be far better off served by having balance such that smart people can dominate in smaller groups even facing massive zergs, this is the one point where I kinda dislike EVE-Online... no matter how smart you are if the other guy can zerg you to death it's a lost battle.

How "smart" is it for a few people to take on an army? "Smart" isn't what you are looking for, "guarantees regardless" is.

A doctored game. Insurance against losing. Fairness no matter.

Once upon a time....

  User Deleted
3/07/13 2:22:37 PM#163
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Korn42

Hi all,

just to clarify, in the current state of the game, "classical" FFA PvP does not play a major role, largely due to griefing and zerging concerns.

We have developed a great solution for territory based GvG and structured territory based open PvP that we are quite proud of and of which we think is one of the best innovations of our game.

However, this is something that we do not want to disclose in a piece by piece manner, but rather at a later stage in a proper dev blog or video.

-Dominik

If I understand the explanations in this thread and the copy on the Albion website correctly:

  • - warfare is guild vs guild
  • - guilds can attack adjacent territories
  • - caps will be placed in combat areas to prevent zerging
  • - a guild of 5 or so players can effectively hold and manage a territory
  • - players can build their own villages on their territory

 

If you can pull that off, you're sitting on a goldmine.

 

 

It seems like they'd have to use some sort of Battlegrounds system for this.

It's getting so that I hate to apply terms to things, but this doesn't seem like an open world Sandbox to me. That's not to say that it can't be a fine game, I'm still very curious about the specifics and the game as a whole. It just doesn't sound like the Sandbox game I'd really like to see. But lacking having one of them, a good alternative still might be in play.

From my perspective, the ideal situation is to make warfare cost a boatload, so that attacking someone is costly and weekens you to other possibilities. While a 5 person guild can use this tactically for defense, but not claim a dominant position on their own. I see that scenario (a mere 5 person guild gaining a dominant power position) as bad, and think that numbers and cooperation and all the player to player interaction is as important in building a social powerhouse as resources are.

Smart people > Something awful/reddit zerg :P

 

The game would be far better off served by having balance such that smart people can dominate in smaller groups even facing massive zergs, this is the one point where I kinda dislike EVE-Online... no matter how smart you are if the other guy can zerg you to death it's a lost battle.

How "smart" is it for a few people to take on an army? "Smart" isn't what you are looking for, "guarantees regardless" is.

A doctored game. Insurance against losing. Fairness no matter.

 

But seriously it should be a game balanced on the notion that if you're a small group of people going up against a zerg guild through careful battle doctrine you could whittle away their numbers through morale draining raids and hit and run attacks. That's what I mean, not all out and out battles but applying your resources in such a way that you can win against a oponent who does not apply his in equal if not better way regardless if numbers are on either side. That's what I'd like to see in this game and not the derpfest EVE has become since most 0.0 alliances/blocks can now just drop supercaps on any small group they feel like it, before titans and supercarriers the battles were more interesting the wars were more battles of morale attrition, nowadays it's just who's got more titans and isn't in a persistant vegetative coma.

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2170

3/07/13 5:50:40 PM#164
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Korn42

Hi all,

just to clarify, in the current state of the game, "classical" FFA PvP does not play a major role, largely due to griefing and zerging concerns.

We have developed a great solution for territory based GvG and structured territory based open PvP that we are quite proud of and of which we think is one of the best innovations of our game.

However, this is something that we do not want to disclose in a piece by piece manner, but rather at a later stage in a proper dev blog or video.

-Dominik

If I understand the explanations in this thread and the copy on the Albion website correctly:

  • - warfare is guild vs guild
  • - guilds can attack adjacent territories
  • - caps will be placed in combat areas to prevent zerging
  • - a guild of 5 or so players can effectively hold and manage a territory
  • - players can build their own villages on their territory

 

If you can pull that off, you're sitting on a goldmine.

 

 

It seems like they'd have to use some sort of Battlegrounds system for this.

It's getting so that I hate to apply terms to things, but this doesn't seem like an open world Sandbox to me. That's not to say that it can't be a fine game, I'm still very curious about the specifics and the game as a whole. It just doesn't sound like the Sandbox game I'd really like to see. But lacking having one of them, a good alternative still might be in play.

From my perspective, the ideal situation is to make warfare cost a boatload, so that attacking someone is costly and weekens you to other possibilities. While a 5 person guild can use this tactically for defense, but not claim a dominant position on their own. I see that scenario (a mere 5 person guild gaining a dominant power position) as bad, and think that numbers and cooperation and all the player to player interaction is as important in building a social powerhouse as resources are.

Smart people > Something awful/reddit zerg :P

 

The game would be far better off served by having balance such that smart people can dominate in smaller groups even facing massive zergs, this is the one point where I kinda dislike EVE-Online... no matter how smart you are if the other guy can zerg you to death it's a lost battle.

How "smart" is it for a few people to take on an army? "Smart" isn't what you are looking for, "guarantees regardless" is.

A doctored game. Insurance against losing. Fairness no matter.

 

But seriously it should be a game balanced on the notion that if you're a small group of people going up against a zerg guild through careful battle doctrine you could whittle away their numbers through morale draining raids and hit and run attacks. That's what I mean, not all out and out battles but applying your resources in such a way that you can win against a oponent who does not apply his in equal if not better way regardless if numbers are on either side. That's what I'd like to see in this game and not the derpfest EVE has become since most 0.0 alliances/blocks can now just drop supercaps on any small group they feel like it, before titans and supercarriers the battles were more interesting the wars were more battles of morale attrition, nowadays it's just who's got more titans and isn't in a persistant vegetative coma.

Ah, well, yes. I can agree with that. I just think that numbers should be important. But I also think that zergs need the challenge of maintenance. As I stated above, it should cost just for the act of going to war.

Basically, I want a more realistic game. Imagine your comment here if there are supply lines that your small guild can break, harassment, etc., and playing a waiting game while the attacker weakens themselves and a third party decides it's a darn good time to take some other holdings, and forcing your attacker to pull out. Or alliances, "you attack them there, and if you do I have another guild who's ready to attack them over there, and we'll beat the crap out of that zerg."

Imagine true player mercenary armies for hire.

 

Once upon a time....

  Yamota

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6506

"I fight so you don't have to."

3/07/13 5:59:41 PM#165
Originally posted by Dibdabs
Originally posted by Bercilak

I know what you mean. However we added a lot of game design elements to prevent "Zerging" or "griefing of lower tier players". It will not be profitable for a high tier player to gank noobs. 

That's never stopped the griefers, and never will.  Their reward is the satisfaction of spoiling someone else's game.

I agree. Griefers feel empowered when they can ruin someone else's fun. That is why you rarely see griefing in ThemePark MMOs with no death penalty. I played on the WAR PvP servers, at launch, and even though it was possible for higher levels to gank noobs it rarely happened because you lost almost nothing when dying.

However, in games like Eve, where you lose so much. Getting ganked in low security zone is a guarantee, even if you fly a crap ship, not worth anything, because they know that killing and podding you still hurts. You have to get a new clone, get a new ship, new modules etc etc.

I believe a happy balance is the best. Allow for FFA PvP but make the death penalty moderate, such that you "lose" maybe 10 minutes of your time. That way death wont be meaningless but also not so bad that griefers will get a kick out of griefing you.

  User Deleted
3/07/13 7:09:49 PM#166
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Dibdabs
Originally posted by Bercilak

I know what you mean. However we added a lot of game design elements to prevent "Zerging" or "griefing of lower tier players". It will not be profitable for a high tier player to gank noobs. 

That's never stopped the griefers, and never will.  Their reward is the satisfaction of spoiling someone else's game.

I agree. Griefers feel empowered when they can ruin someone else's fun. That is why you rarely see griefing in ThemePark MMOs with no death penalty. I played on the WAR PvP servers, at launch, and even though it was possible for higher levels to gank noobs it rarely happened because you lost almost nothing when dying.

However, in games like Eve, where you lose so much. Getting ganked in low security zone is a guarantee, even if you fly a crap ship, not worth anything, because they know that killing and podding you still hurts. You have to get a new clone, get a new ship, new modules etc etc.

I believe a happy balance is the best. Allow for FFA PvP but make the death penalty moderate, such that you "lose" maybe 10 minutes of your time. That way death wont be meaningless but also not so bad that griefers will get a kick out of griefing you.

You're complaining that you autopiloted through low sec or didn't plan accordingly for the trip and got ganked? Are you seriously gonna bring that argument to the table? Because I got a few choice words to definitively counter it: electronics level 5, cloaking level 4, covert ops level 4 + your choice of faction frigate to level 5 and you'll be laughing at any gate camps you run into including the bubble camps in 0.0/wormhole space ( I still have my original anathema complete with the original set of scanning rigs I put into it, which defaulted into large rigs when they rigs got split into small/medium/large types and the ship is almost 7 years old and has been through major fleet battles in over 3 wars in 3 different regions).

 

Also your "happy" balance will just feed griefers and bring in the griefertards from WoW and WoW-clones who grief people just cause they ran across them (think I am joking? try grinding mobs in northrend to gain a level on a pvp server and see how long it takes for a level capped blood elf pally with full pvp gear to drop on your ass and 2 shot you because you're at least 10 levels below him and in pve gear of the non-raid variety), because with no consequence beyond "10 minutes" people won't care about them as a collective and the griefers will just go about their jobs ruining your gameplay experience at which point you'll moan going "FFA PVP SUXOR THE DEVS ARE FAIL!".

 

If you can't be bothered to think your moves in a game, think what you need with you, what you can afford to lose and what you need to put in the bank then this is most definately not your game as you'll be crying you just lost everything when anyone with even the least bit of tactical knowledge knows "never bring anything you cannot afford to lose" (that's the best piece of advice you'll ever hear in a real sandbox game and while you'll no doubt continue thinking this is unfair and a game is supposed to be "fun" , your fun is not my fun and I like a game where I can jump into it, find a band of like minded individuals and get on with doing whatever (hunting creatures, hunting other players or just plain old bashing numbers together thinking of which way to optimize production quotas, yeah I got a few good friends in EVE with whom I do just that and while the latter might bore you and the hunting players part might horrify you it is all in good fun and we sometimes are the ones who end up dead, in which case we all pm the guys who beat us and congratulate them on a good fight)).

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3142

Veni, Vidi, Converti

3/09/13 5:51:51 AM#167
Originally posted by Korn42

Hi all,

just to clarify, in the current state of the game, "classical" FFA PvP does not play a major role, largely due to griefing and zerging concerns.

We have developed a great solution for territory based GvG and structured territory based open PvP that we are quite proud of and of which we think is one of the best innovations of our game.

However, this is something that we do not want to disclose in a piece by piece manner, but rather at a later stage in a proper dev blog or video.

-Dominik

 

Ah fair enough. Assume you'll post updates on your website 1st and foremost (blog?)?

  Bercilak

Albion Online

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 100

 
OP  3/09/13 3:03:44 PM#168
Originally posted by MumboJumbo
Originally posted by Korn42

Hi all,

just to clarify, in the current state of the game, "classical" FFA PvP does not play a major role, largely due to griefing and zerging concerns.

We have developed a great solution for territory based GvG and structured territory based open PvP that we are quite proud of and of which we think is one of the best innovations of our game.

However, this is something that we do not want to disclose in a piece by piece manner, but rather at a later stage in a proper dev blog or video.

-Dominik

 

Ah fair enough. Assume you'll post updates on your website 1st and foremost (blog?)?

Yes of course. We try to be as transparent as possibles about our decisions and why we make them. But currently we are doing a lot of testing and do not want to raise wrong expectations by saying we are doing A, only to find out later that we are doing B.

 

Kind regards

Bercilak

A medieval sandbox MMO
http://www.facebook.com/albiononline/

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/10/13 1:08:43 AM#169
Originally posted by Kezzadrix
Originally posted by Kaneth
Originally posted by Crunchy222
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Why always have to have full loot FFA PvP?

when will a sandbox developer do something original with the PvP for once. 

 

Anyway, its a interesting concept. I will check it out.

 

Full loot adds so much to a game imo. 

 

I know a lot of people cant look past it, and envision a world where high level players are ganking them non stop for their loot.

 

Its sad really, considering full loot does wonders for a games economy and makes crafting vital.

 

In the end, full loot games always make gear very easy to obtain and stockpile.  Trade off for potentially losing stuff is pvp that has risk, which is good...pve that has some excitement...crafting made a key component of the game rather than a side dish.

 

 

People need to get over the fear of losing pixles.  Your never losing that putple raid set that took 3 months to get....and only those who refuse to adapt get griefed.  It does take some getting use to...learning when to bank, learning to perhaps scout an area first, learning to stay by freindlies or clan member, and learning to accept loss of improve.

 

Its exactly this crowd of people who begs for something different yet refuses to play games that dont follow the same old trend.  Its different and risk is involved...which imo, give the game a layer of depth that no themepark can match.

 

Game looks good btw.

It has nothing to do with the fear of losing pixels for me. It's the fact that full loot pvp games tend to cater to the lowest common denominator. The act of not being able to leave a certain area because someone is camping the hell out of it, is frustrating at best, and bordering on harrassment at worst. I understand that the concept can be appealing, but full loot pvp only ensures that a game will only be niche.

PvE Sandbox games can exist, with systems to ensure that gear will need to be replaced, and have new and interesting concepts to ensure that the game is different than a themepark. However, no developer out there has really had the foresight and intelligence to attempt to create such a game. Some games have come close, like Asheron's Call, but they are still lacking many typical sandbox elements.

The very first MMO I played was Ultima Online in 1997 and it was full loot pvp.  Sure, I experienced moments of being ganked and losing my things, especially while my character skills were low.   When that happened, I got myself re-equiped and went back to doing what I wanted to do, even if i had to go to another area to avoid danger.  Keep in mind that these kinds of games are not meant to be played solo.

I must have missed that memo :P

I did plenty of solo play in UO.  Did a fair bit of group stuff as well, but one (of many) things I liked about UO was that I didn't feel like the game itself was punishing me for going one way or the other.  There was reason to group, but it never felt forced. 

The people who tend to not like this style of game are the kind that prefer to play solo all the time or with only a small group.  Stricty PvE games are probably better for that play style.

Meh, no.  Strictly PvE games are all about the endgame raiding these days, and that's not really solo or even small-group material either.  The grind-to-endgame might be perfectly viable as a solo endeavor, maybe even more efficient, but once you're through that part there's SFA to do on your own. 

 

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

3/15/13 12:10:08 PM#170

@Dihoru,

Sorry, but Wikipedia is hardly considered an authoritative source because of the manner of it's editing. If you find the term in Websters, let me know. More importantly even the Wikipedia entry that you reference does NOT agree with your own definition of sandbox... "In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play".  That definition does not include PvP at all, let alone FFA PvP. Nor does it say that said tools are exhaustive and no limitations within who's form the player must work within thier creativity. It simply implies that the player has tools to modify the world and express creativity in how they play. I again point to the sonnet and the haiku as devices which impose some broad form upon a writer but who few would consider do not allow for individual creativity.

You can look to something like, A Tale in the Desert, as an example of a game which allows for sandbox style play but doesn't feature combat at all.

I believe you are simply attempting to impose your own narrow preferences upon the definition of a very broad term. Like saying if a hotdog doesn't have mustard and relish, it's not a hotdog. Meaningfull human interaction takes many different forms, and simply because there may be some very broad effective constraints upon said interaction does not mean the interaction does not exist. The idea that the only way to express meaningfull human interaction, emotion, competition, even conflict is the hacking of each other is rather myopic (IMO)....as is that there can be no external constraint imposed on who is allowed to hack who down and still allowed the freedom to operate within a given environment.

In fact, one of the strongest experesions of a "sandbox" style experience that I've heard many players mention is PnP Role-Playing....and that is a place where the GM would generaly permanently remove characters from play if they attempted to engage in direct violence against the rest of the party on a regular basis.

In terms of the durability of what one creates, why would you assume that the ONLY force in existance capable of destroying something would be another player? That certainly isn't even true in real life where peoples "sandcastles" are often destroyed by forces beyond any humans control. In a game environment, you not only have such forces availble but a whole plethora of non-player antagonists availble to use for such a mechanism if desired.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

3/15/13 12:26:25 PM#171

RE: Greifing

To be fair, in any game where one player can interact with another player in any fashion, the potential for greifing exists. I do see that FFA full loot games TEND to attract more greifers then other types of games. I think this is simply due to that sort of interaction putting more tools in the greifers tool-kit to use....and not giving the greifers most favored targets, new players, any built in support base that they can use to help deflect such attacks. Therefore, there is probably a degree of self-selection that turns into an ugly spiral in many such games. I don't think it is the design intent of most such games to support or encourage such activity. I do wish the Developers of Albion much success in thier efforts to curb such activity in thier own game. I do think both specific design mechanisms and degree of intent of the designers can make a big difference here. It's just an unfortunate tendency that many such games have fallen victem to this problem so far.

I'll keep a carefull eye on how this MMO progresses and hope the Developers here are able to solve what seems to be a fairly pernicious problem with this category of game. At least they seem well aware of the potential problem.

 

  User Deleted
3/16/13 8:20:59 AM#172
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

@Dihoru,

Sorry, but Wikipedia is hardly considered an authoritative source because of the manner of it's editing. If you find the term in Websters, let me know. More importantly even the Wikipedia entry that you reference does NOT agree with your own definition of sandbox... "In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play".  That definition does not include PvP at all, let alone FFA PvP. Nor does it say that said tools are exhaustive and no limitations within who's form the player must work within thier creativity. It simply implies that the player has tools to modify the world and express creativity in how they play. I again point to the sonnet and the haiku as devices which impose some broad form upon a writer but who few would consider do not allow for individual creativity.

You can look to something like, A Tale in the Desert, as an example of a game which allows for sandbox style play but doesn't feature combat at all.

I believe you are simply attempting to impose your own narrow preferences upon the definition of a very broad term. Like saying if a hotdog doesn't have mustard and relish, it's not a hotdog. Meaningfull human interaction takes many different forms, and simply because there may be some very broad effective constraints upon said interaction does not mean the interaction does not exist. The idea that the only way to express meaningfull human interaction, emotion, competition, even conflict is the hacking of each other is rather myopic (IMO)....as is that there can be no external constraint imposed on who is allowed to hack who down and still allowed the freedom to operate within a given environment.

In fact, one of the strongest experesions of a "sandbox" style experience that I've heard many players mention is PnP Role-Playing....and that is a place where the GM would generaly permanently remove characters from play if they attempted to engage in direct violence against the rest of the party on a regular basis.

In terms of the durability of what one creates, why would you assume that the ONLY force in existance capable of destroying something would be another player? That certainly isn't even true in real life where peoples "sandcastles" are often destroyed by forces beyond any humans control. In a game environment, you not only have such forces availble but a whole plethora of non-player antagonists availble to use for such a mechanism if desired.

1. I'd say it's a better measure of a definition than most dictionaries which sometimes take years to include technical terms due to the flux said terms could be in.

2. And modification of the world does include (not exclude) reduction of the number of individuals within said world. If said individuals are also player controlled then elimination of another player by you, as a player, is basically PVP. A Tale in the Desert also allows PVP just that is the non-combat sort (I assume player trade is in that game and a wider player controlled market, if not then you really have no basis to call it even a open world MMO) and it is quite redundant to name it a sandbox.

3. My "narrow minded preferences" are in fact broader than yours which I find rather amusing.

4. By that definition Neverwinter Online is a sandbox.

5. Do you even know how difficult natural disasters are the model in a game? (hint: look up fluid dynamics and the math going into it to have a good idea the kind of models a game with credible natural disasters would require to emulate and be able to run on your local hardware).

 

 

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/17/13 5:00:41 AM#173
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

In fact, one of the strongest experesions of a "sandbox" style experience that I've heard many players mention is PnP Role-Playing....and that is a place where the GM would generaly permanently remove characters from play if they attempted to engage in direct violence against the rest of the party on a regular basis.

Feh.  Even the PnP environment has it's 'sandbox' versus 'themepark' debate, just under different terms: "railroad" versus "free-form" are the ones I'm familiar with.

As to how much in-party fighting was allowed... well, actually I'd compare that more to in-guild fighting than to the ffa concepts.

 

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

3/18/13 12:50:31 PM#174

1) We can disagree on the authoritative status of Wikipedia, but again...Wikipedia, which YOU consider an authoritative source does NOT conform to your definition of the term....it's definition is MUCH broader, and would include things you do not consider "sandbox".

2)  Modification of the world CAN include reduction of the number of players in the world but does not NECCESSITATE such. Huge difference there. Nor does it dictate the conditions under which said reduction MIGHT.  Note, the idea of reduction of players in the world is something which NO FFA PvP game currently supports anyway...since none of them support perma-death, let alone closing of the players account upon death.  Conflict can indeed take many forms, as I have already pointed out. FFA PvP is a very narrow expression of one of those forms. Furthermore, Wikipedia's definition, which you consider authoritative, doesn't even reference conflict. It references creativity. Conflict is merely one narrow expression of creativity.

4) Yes, the FOUNDRY aspect of Neverwinter Online would be a VERY STRONG expression of a "sanbox". Nearly the definition of it, since it quite literaly allows the players to create a portion of the world and how they might play within it. The degree by which that gameplay aspect is divorced from the rest of the gameplay experience of the game MAY certainly open the door for debate on the overall classification of the game....but I would absolutely maintain that the FOUNDRY itself is an expression of sandbox gameplay.

5) So are truely accurate real-world physics that physical combat might be based upon. A game system does  NOT have to have accurate real-world modeling in it's systems in order represent something in game-play. Virtualy all game-play mechanisms in all games (including all your FFA PvP games) are merely abstractions of something. Heck...the Sim-City single-player computer games back in the 90's had representation of natural disasters as part of thier game-play. This point is not salient to the discussion at hand.

 

  User Deleted
3/18/13 4:54:08 PM#175
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

1) We can disagree on the authoritative status of Wikipedia, but again...Wikipedia, which YOU consider an authoritative source does NOT conform to your definition of the term....it's definition is MUCH broader, and would include things you do not consider "sandbox".

2)  Modification of the world CAN include reduction of the number of players in the world but does not NECCESSITATE such. Huge difference there. Nor does it dictate the conditions under which said reduction MIGHT.  Note, the idea of reduction of players in the world is something which NO FFA PvP game currently supports anyway...since none of them support perma-death, let alone closing of the players account upon death.  Conflict can indeed take many forms, as I have already pointed out. FFA PvP is a very narrow expression of one of those forms. Furthermore, Wikipedia's definition, which you consider authoritative, doesn't even reference conflict. It references creativity. Conflict is merely one narrow expression of creativity.

4) Yes, the FOUNDRY aspect of Neverwinter Online would be a VERY STRONG expression of a "sanbox". Nearly the definition of it, since it quite literaly allows the players to create a portion of the world and how they might play within it. The degree by which that gameplay aspect is divorced from the rest of the gameplay experience of the game MAY certainly open the door for debate on the overall classification of the game....but I would absolutely maintain that the FOUNDRY itself is an expression of sandbox gameplay.

5) So are truely accurate real-world physics that physical combat might be based upon. A game system does  NOT have to have accurate real-world modeling in it's systems in order represent something in game-play. Virtualy all game-play mechanisms in all games (including all your FFA PvP games) are merely abstractions of something. Heck...the Sim-City single-player computer games back in the 90's had representation of natural disasters as part of thier game-play. This point is not salient to the discussion at hand.

-facepalms- Just remove yourself from the discussion, it's obvious you're ill suited for rational and calm discourse even if you had any idea of the topic and if anyone had any doubt of that 5) pretty much nailed that coffin shut. Comparing classical mechanics,which are used to represent physical combat in most MMOs as currently know of no game where combat happens at relativistic speeds, to fluid dynamics is like me comparing you to a fern and no stylizing natural disasters like they used to do it in 2D, isometric and 3D management games won't work in a 3D sandbox game where players can spot, due to their ground level point of view, the glaring, immersion breaking,flaws in any simplified version of modeling a natural disaster when said disaster is tearing shit apart and even if you could get it to look good enough while avoiding the immersion pitfall and not spend a few years coding each disaster in part you're still then faced with a very real issue of "how the fuck are people gonna even see this without their rigs bursting into flames?" because I donno how much you know but modeling a fluid on the PC in rudimentary graphics isn't fun for the PC and when I say rudimentary I mean WoW looks like da shit in comparison level graphics.

  MmOrPgSuCkSbAlLs

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 5

3/18/13 4:58:35 PM#176
Dear OP, you sure picked the wrong forums / website to ask for constructive feedback of any relevant value. I will head on over to your site , poke around a bit and leave some thoughts and opinions for you.

Nope, still not tired of making accounts.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

3/21/13 1:17:01 PM#177

@Dihoru

Not sure if you are trolling at this point, but I'll bite...

- You don't NEED to model fluid dynamics in the engine. All you need is destructable structures (which you would need to model anyway with PvP if you wanted to be able to "tear down someone elses sandcastle" and a graphical representation of something happening to a structure (e.g. a lightning bolt) or player which is no more complex to model graphicaly then any spell effect which has been around for 10+ years in MMO's.

- Have you even looked at the screenshots for this MMO? It's presented from an isometric view (ala UO) rather then a 3D ground based view anyway....so your a priori assumptions go out the window there.

- The "natural disaster" thing was just one example of an environmental challenge of which you picked a narrow subset (flood) which is difficult to model convincingly in 3D graphics. In PvE you also have the oportunity to utilize hostile creatures as antagonists which are no more difficult to model graphicaly then hostile player characters in PvP.

- Given that you picked only one of the 5 points used to refute your position to respond to and your response was limited to that a certain subset of graphical effects is difficult to render convincingly in a fully 3D environment....I'd say it's obvious that you pretty much defaulted on the arguement.

Now I'm done...as I really don't want to derail the OP's thread with anymore of this nonsense...and it's clear that you are simply arguing in circles at this point. Thank you. Good bye.

  LoD-Murdock

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 1

7/17/13 10:38:31 PM#178

You want sandbox?  Albion delivers. 

Lords of Death (www.lordsofdeath.com) was lucky to get invited to an alpha testing event, and every one of us had a blast!  Of course the game is not complete, and I will reserve final judgement for the release version, but what I saw was a very smooth running game with TONS of potential.   The developers/administrators are also extremely competent as we noticed several instances of them fixing bugs while the game was still live...and they did it within minutes of the bug/issue being reported. 

LoD has always been a PvP/PK guild, and this game promises to be right up our alley.   Here's why we liked it:

Gear based - friends can join late and not be behind a level grind.  Yet, it takes some group commitment to earn improved gear. 

Full loot - risk v. reward.  'Nuff said.  Nothing is worth having if there's no real risk of losing it.  We literally had guard patrols during our harvesting sessions so that we weren't ambushed.  Cool stuff.

Building/item progression - this game presents a strong desire to stay ahead of the competition.  Once i encountered an enemy with a tier 3 item, i couldn't rest until we matched his technology in the field. 

I'll be watching this game, and hope it stays on course with it's original vision...we have enough "easy mode" games...we need a true sandbox entry to this genre.

Murdock

LoD

  Dhal

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 3

7/17/13 11:17:10 PM#179

This is just in response to the OP. I have not read all 18 pages.

The game has a lot of potential. There are a lot of aspects of the game that are nostalgic. On the PC end movement is much like UO, or if you prefer it Diablo. I feel compelled to continuously click nodes and gather, bringing materials back to base frequently. It really seems as if someone is clicking on me and assigning me these tasks that I just do from reflex. Before you know it another Tier 3 something or other is up and functional with plans for the next one to go up.

 

The siege system is great. With limited placement it's a natural desire to want to expand and grab more tiles in your cluster to continue towards grander pastures. Lessons be learned with your first tile in strategically placing structures for minimizing travel time in order to efficiently progress your guild. By tile 2 you will be sure to think long term if you've run out of room in your first tile.

 

The fact that a friend can join the game late, can easily be equipped with tools to go gather resources for the gear your guild is able to craft can almost immediately get him on the same "level"; ready to play with you. There's no level grind in the way acting as an inconvenience to play with your friends. This is probably the best aspect of the game right now. Once a guild is a couple days in, it is likely they will just have the stuff needed in Guild Storage for him to grab and get going with everyone else.

 

The fact that you can build things anywhere on the map (not just in your tile) gives friendly players a way to create havens for new or un-guilded players if they're looking to add to their empire through cooperative means. It may not fit my personal playstyle but in a sandbox this is essential to have a robust, diverse population. I'm glad it can be done, and create a place of contention for notoriety battles between PK's and players policing players. Don't have a guild? Find a nice spot to hide a tent for a little bit of storage.

 

The speccing of your character/spells coming from gear, created by progression as a guild instead of an individual basis is great. In a full loot game like this it's important to make those items meaningful, while not losing any real progression as those resources can just be gathered again and recreated, maybe this time trying something a little different.

 

There are a lot of mechanical things that need to be worked out, it is alpha and that goes without saying. But as far as the "fun meter" goes for this game, intuitive design, etc. those are just growing pains that can be worked out in the long ru. The things that need work can be done in time, and do not get in the way too much of the games current state. Balance is an issue, and there needs to be a notoriety system that identifies players who police other players, and those who hunt other players. But to remain a sandbox there can be no way that mechanics prevent or handicap a player for choosing to play a specific way.

  Myrdynn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1388

7/17/13 11:18:48 PM#180
Originally posted by LoD-Murdock

You want sandbox?  Albion delivers. 

Lords of Death (www.lordsofdeath.com) was lucky to get invited to an alpha testing event, and every one of us had a blast!  Of course the game is not complete, and I will reserve final judgement for the release version, but what I saw was a very smooth running game with TONS of potential.   The developers/administrators are also extremely competent as we noticed several instances of them fixing bugs while the game was still live...and they did it within minutes of the bug/issue being reported. 

LoD has always been a PvP/PK guild, and this game promises to be right up our alley.   Here's why we liked it:

Gear based - friends can join late and not be behind a level grind.  Yet, it takes some group commitment to earn improved gear. 

Full loot - risk v. reward.  'Nuff said.  Nothing is worth having if there's no real risk of losing it.  We literally had guard patrols during our harvesting sessions so that we weren't ambushed.  Cool stuff.

Building/item progression - this game presents a strong desire to stay ahead of the competition.  Once i encountered an enemy with a tier 3 item, i couldn't rest until we matched his technology in the field. 

I'll be watching this game, and hope it stays on course with it's original vision...we have enough "easy mode" games...we need a true sandbox entry to this genre.

Murdock

LoD

huh?? utterly confused, this leads me to a guild page about Darkfall, not a game called lords of death, a crappy game called Darkfall

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