Originally posted by Karraptathid

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Karraptathid

My primary toon in DAoC is currently a Healer in Thid, love the abilities, but the class comes up short once I have to go into  melee combat.   Any class should have a chance at winning a melee combat  if the attacker is already mostly dead.  That is one thing I loved about WAR, every class can make a good run at it in melee combat, not too happy about having to wade into battle to get enough power to heal though.  

One thing I do love about RIFT besides the gfx, instant heal timers are very short.   I do love a long battles, makes victory a far sweeter  moment vs a quick gank and their dead.  

Rock Paper Scissors class system.

 

There are solo toons and there arn't solo toons. This might not be the game for you?

 

I don't think you have played a Midgard "Healer" class.  Unlike any healing class (Hib/Alb or Midgard Shammy), Midgard Healers had zero offensive DPS spells.   Best that could happen is a target of a Mez  died of sleep apnea (which can't happen) because their damage via melee combat was laughable.   If MJ is bring back a true "healer" class (Midgard Healer) without offensive DPS spells, they need to have enough melee capabilities to earn them some respect vs being known as a easy kill.  Mythic made one adjustment for PVE but didn't allow that adjustment for RVR, Eir's weapon proc spell.  

Yes, Healers didnt damage in RvR but they were a whole different monster.

Aoe Mez and Aoe Stun ... Healers were often the leader of groups and sieges because of their command of the battlefield. It was ALOT of pressure being a healer in Daoc because you were the difference if your group failed due to a delayed heal or a ill-timed stun.

Originally posted by Stiler

This is one of the area's I actually think Warhammer did right/better then many other mmo's.

I'm normally not the type of person that plays healers, I just do not find it that fun to play "Look at the health bars and spam heals all the time" type of gameplay, it gets old SUPER FAST imo, and it's repetitive as heck. THat is why you generally have healers being one of ht eleast played /most sought after classes in groups.

However in Warhammer online the way it worked was that healers actually had to take an ACTIVE part in combat, using their abilities, to help build up "WAAAGH" which in-turn made their abilities better. If you did damage, it built up the WAAAGH meter that buffed your healing, if you did healing, it buffed up your damage metter, etc. It was a way to promote healers to do a variety of things to play best, rather then just healing.

So you didn't just stand around in back of groups, healing people, but actually got into the fights as well, doing many things which in turn made you a BETTER healer.

I enjoyed that kind of gameplay a lot more then I would have had it simply been normal healing and staying out of fights.

 

I agree, healers in Warhammer Online was by far the most fun healer in any MMO. Specially the melee healer disciple of cain and the ranged ArchMage.

For me I dont understand why you would limit a class to only healing. Being able to fill the healer role I understand, but not being able to do anything else; that just makes it boring and one-dimensional.

And all this talk about healer being able to beat class X I find silly. Your class should just give you your base, it is your skills as a player which should decide if you can beat another player, regardless of his or your class.

I LOVE playing pure healers and for many years, i almost played them only.

But the last thing i'm gonna do is fall for hype for another 2+ years just to see another mediocre game dwindling into nothingness 6 month after release. (followed by an interview of MJ stating "yes, we've made mistakes..." )

There have been way bigger companies with bigger IPs failing in the last years.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Stiler

This is one of the area's I actually think Warhammer did right/better then many other mmo's.

I'm normally not the type of person that plays healers, I just do not find it that fun to play "Look at the health bars and spam heals all the time" type of gameplay, it gets old SUPER FAST imo, and it's repetitive as heck. THat is why you generally have healers being one of ht eleast played /most sought after classes in groups.

However in Warhammer online the way it worked was that healers actually had to take an ACTIVE part in combat, using their abilities, to help build up "WAAAGH" which in-turn made their abilities better. If you did damage, it built up the WAAAGH meter that buffed your healing, if you did healing, it buffed up your damage metter, etc. It was a way to promote healers to do a variety of things to play best, rather then just healing.

So you didn't just stand around in back of groups, healing people, but actually got into the fights as well, doing many things which in turn made you a BETTER healer.

I enjoyed that kind of gameplay a lot more then I would have had it simply been normal healing and staying out of fights.

 

I agree, healers in Warhammer Online was by far the most fun healer in any MMO. Specially the melee healer disciple of cain and the ranged ArchMage.

For me I dont understand why you would limit a class to only healing. Being able to fill the healer role I understand, but not being able to do anything else; that just makes it boring and one-dimensional.

And all this talk about healer being able to beat class X I find silly. Your class should just give you your base, it is your skills as a player which should decide if you can beat another player, regardless of his or your class.

I found the concept of the melee healer to be entirely in the wrong direction and just one of the many glaring reasons why I didn't like WAR. 

Guess I just enjoyed how the role played out in DAOC, where your first job was to keep yourself alive, then your off healers (who in turn healed you) and then the CC's and heavy damage dealers.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Stiler

This is one of the area's I actually think Warhammer did right/better then many other mmo's.

I'm normally not the type of person that plays healers, I just do not find it that fun to play "Look at the health bars and spam heals all the time" type of gameplay, it gets old SUPER FAST imo, and it's repetitive as heck. THat is why you generally have healers being one of ht eleast played /most sought after classes in groups.

However in Warhammer online the way it worked was that healers actually had to take an ACTIVE part in combat, using their abilities, to help build up "WAAAGH" which in-turn made their abilities better. If you did damage, it built up the WAAAGH meter that buffed your healing, if you did healing, it buffed up your damage metter, etc. It was a way to promote healers to do a variety of things to play best, rather then just healing.

So you didn't just stand around in back of groups, healing people, but actually got into the fights as well, doing many things which in turn made you a BETTER healer.

I enjoyed that kind of gameplay a lot more then I would have had it simply been normal healing and staying out of fights.

 

I agree, healers in Warhammer Online was by far the most fun healer in any MMO. Specially the melee healer disciple of cain and the ranged ArchMage.

For me I dont understand why you would limit a class to only healing. Being able to fill the healer role I understand, but not being able to do anything else; that just makes it boring and one-dimensional.

And all this talk about healer being able to beat class X I find silly. Your class should just give you your base, it is your skills as a player which should decide if you can beat another player, regardless of his or your class.

I found the concept of the melee healer to be entirely in the wrong direction and just one of the many glaring reasons why I didn't like WAR. 

Guess I just enjoyed how the role played out in DAOC, where your first job was to keep yourself alive, then your off healers (who in turn healed you) and then the CC's and heavy damage dealers.

Who said anything about melee and healing?

The healers in WAR (at least from the ones I remember/played) were range based, mainly speaking from expeirence of playing a Goblin Shaman.

The mechanics of having to actively use yur damage abilities which in-turn make your healing "Better" and in-turn make your damage better, made sure that healers did other things besides simply heal heal heal, and it was much more enjoyable imo.

Personally I think Final Fantasy 11 did class separation as well as could be expected in an MMO.  White mages being primarily healers, though they did some holy/light based offensive spells.  With the addition of a sub-job howerver they could further specialise into healing, or gain more offense by learning black magic offensive spells. 

The job/sub-job system in my opinion has never been beaten for giving classes extra strategy via which sub-job you have but still not homogenising the main roles of each class.

TERA has pure healers, they do almost no damage and can't fill any other role in small scale, large scale or guild PvP/PvE besides healing. Healing in the forms of healing health and removing harmful effects from your characters like poisons or stuns. 

Originally posted by Stiler

This is one of the area's I actually think Warhammer did right/better then many other mmo's.

I'm normally not the type of person that plays healers, I just do not find it that fun to play "Look at the health bars and spam heals all the time" type of gameplay, it gets old SUPER FAST imo, and it's repetitive as heck. THat is why you generally have healers being one of ht eleast played /most sought after classes in groups.

However in Warhammer online the way it worked was that healers actually had to take an ACTIVE part in combat, using their abilities, to help build up "WAAAGH" which in-turn made their abilities better. If you did damage, it built up the WAAAGH meter that buffed your healing, if you did healing, it buffed up your damage metter, etc. It was a way to promote healers to do a variety of things to play best, rather then just healing.

So you didn't just stand around in back of groups, healing people, but actually got into the fights as well, doing many things which in turn made you a BETTER healer.

I enjoyed that kind of gameplay a lot more then I would have had it simply been normal healing and staying out of fights.

 

The mechanics in WAR were pretty awesome, but the long overdue changes to certain classes such as the Warrior Priest/Disciple of Khaine wrecked the motivation and desire for a lot of players to roll any type of healing class beyond those two classes for a while.  That's not to say it wasn't possible to give a WP/DoK a run for their money as a shaman or archmage, it was just far more difficult versus the involvement.

Nonetheless, I'd love to see the mechanics from WAR bleed into Camelot Unchained's healing classes.  Although I didn't play a WP/DoK as a main, it was (and still is) the most fun I have ever had in an MMO as a healing-type class besides current day friars (in DAoC) and shadow priests (in WoW).

The only thing I seriously could do without ever having to go up against is the retarded skills the shaman in WAR that allowed it endlessly kite, heal, and damage if it was played by a high skill cap player.

That being said, I'd love to see melee 'AoE' center on caster healers, long range healers with limited root/snare CC, and some sort of combinational shaman type that buffs the group/players and has disease/poisons.

Great news. Debuffs, stuns, maybe a dot or two, minimal damage compare to anything else.  Warhammer really screwed up in the healing mechanics.  When everyone prefers a dok / wp over a zealot / rp for a main healing role, something is wrong with the game.  That's not saying people don't play rune priests or zealots. But if a single skill or two makes a hybrid more desirable than the main class, something is really really wrong. Nothing wrong with hybrids but they should never outshine main roles. They should simply add versatility to a group. Need a little extra healing or dmg?
 
I am ok with Anarchy Online's take on doctors.  Doctors could do damage but it was very minimal compared to every other profession. Soloing took for ever. People also had to have a crap-ton of credits and time invested in those doctors in order to get them doing high damage (as far as docs go). Extremely rare and hard to get stuff.  Even then it was still minimal compared to every other class (even the fubared ones) in average gear. Granted I haven't played AO in a few years, after the population took a serious nose dive. For the most part though and like I said, most of the fully gear doctors had years of time invested in those characters and still couldn't burst anyone down for the most part.  They kited and or waited for their attackers to make a mistake. 
 
Sure people got killed by them but in most cases it was always player error, not gear related.  Watching docs kite groups of pvpers all across WA and OA  at stupidly high speeds (everyone involved) and basically not being able to do anything but heal themselves and cc, just to see one dumb player  get picked off  was funny as hell.  But same went for the docs.  If they got snared / stunned and out of position, chances were pretty decent that the doc was about to get burst down, even if fully decked out.
 
People would look at these few (insanely geared) players, everyone on either side knew who the 220 doc's were (were that scarce), and say "That looks fun!" without understanding just how much time and effort those doctors spent getting to that point.  They were players who absolutely enjoyed healing in groups and stuck with it. Eventually they could get some nice perks / rewards after awhile.  Those perks never turned them into god mode, they could not stand in one place tanking hordes of people. The best gear probably didn't even make them average as far as dps. Solo docs would just kite people till someone made a mistake or simply out-lived them through kiting. Which is fine imo. In other words at some point the other player could of dis-engaged.

Sadly I was never able to get mine maxed and geared like I wanted. I enjoy support roles. :( Was in a small corp/guild and population as a whole was dieing off at this point. People were skipping Pen at the time and going straight to Inferno and being carried. Very clique'ish groups, not very many of those even.  While I was able to get help getting keyed.  I didn't have very active 220's in the guild / corp which I was in. It would take days for me to get into an inferno team. Literally.  Not because I wasn't online and waiting / trying. I literally spent days idle asking and searching, waiting / hoping.. :( Maybe I had voiced my opinion once which wasn't popular about something? Dunno.. Don't think so. There were well known people in my corp as far as I know I had decent rep. Just no one was around. Most only logged in for AI / Beast raids or the odd event. Hell if it wasn't for the mass decline in population I'd still be playing AO today as a doc. :(

After seeing this I will keep an eye on Camelot.  We'll see though, hopes aren't that high given Warhammer. Not to mention most people hate (it seems) playing this style of healer.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by colddog04
I thought pretty much every MMORPG (edit: well, fantasy style ones anyway) had pure healers except maybe GW2. Or are you saying that you think he's implying they will do absolutely nothing except heal?

Well, back in DAOC pure healers really did nothing but heal in RVR, sometimes there was some buffing/buff shearing but those abilities normally were weakened by the spec into strong healing abilities. And you did absolutely no damage  during the fight, just didn't have those abilities.

Which made them a real challenge to level in PVE (well, solo anyways) and you could not respec easily once you got past level 40.

 

That's the type of healer I miss as well. I pretty much started Mmo's in Shadowbane. As a healer, I just healed. I needed folks around me at all times in case my ass got jumped lol. Very little damage output, but I was fine with that in exchange for my healing prowess. 

LOL I'm sorry.... if you ever ran an 8man in DAoC with a healer that "just healed" you should've kicked them out.

Clerics and Druid had much more to do than just heal, and Healers (the class in midgard was actually called "Healer") had even more than those two.

Some of the best healers in the game were the ones that could keep everyone alive in their group while simultaneously interupting casters, aplying stuns, dieseases, mezs, roots, shearing buffs from enemies, rebuffing allies, using MLs and RAs, curing dieseases, dots and nearsight, keeping celerity up!  etc, etc.

While I agree dedicated healers add a (imo mandatory) layer of strategy for enjoyable PvP, lets not pretend llike 90% of MMOs don't already use them. Honestly, GW2 is probably only Triple A MMORPG to have come out in the past forever that hasn't used dedicated healers.

Originally posted by Stormakov

LOL I'm sorry.... if you ever ran an 8man in DAoC with a healer that "just healed" you should've kicked them out.

Clerics and Druid had much more to do than just heal, and Healers (the class in midgard was actually called "Healer") had even more than those two.

Some of the best healers in the game were the ones that could keep everyone alive in their group while simultaneously interupting casters, aplying stuns, dieseases, mezs, roots, shearing buffs from enemies, rebuffing allies, using MLs and RAs, curing dieseases, dots and nearsight, keeping celerity up!  etc, etc.

While I agree dedicated healers add a (imo mandatory) layer of strategy for enjoyable PvP, lets not pretend llike 90% of MMOs don't already use them. Honestly, GW2 is probably only Triple A MMORPG to have come out in the past forever that hasn't used dedicated healers.

+1, this guy gets it.

Originally posted by Zinzan

Originally posted by Stormakov

LOL I'm sorry.... if you ever ran an 8man in DAoC with a healer that "just healed" you should've kicked them out.

Clerics and Druid had much more to do than just heal, and Healers (the class in midgard was actually called "Healer") had even more than those two.

Some of the best healers in the game were the ones that could keep everyone alive in their group while simultaneously interupting casters, aplying stuns, dieseases, mezs, roots, shearing buffs from enemies, rebuffing allies, using MLs and RAs, curing dieseases, dots and nearsight, keeping celerity up!  etc, etc.

While I agree dedicated healers add a (imo mandatory) layer of strategy for enjoyable PvP, lets not pretend llike 90% of MMOs don't already use them. Honestly, GW2 is probably only Triple A MMORPG to have come out in the past forever that hasn't used dedicated healers.

+1, this guy gets it.

He got the job description right, but the roles mixed up. Pac-healers didn't have access to celerity, buff shearing, or diseases, but Aug-healers and Shamans did. His key point that healers did much more than just heal is correct though.

While my pac-healer spent 10 minutes killing a AFK with her 2h Hammer (I was so nervous expecting the guy to return before I had time to complete the kill), I didn't mind because I was valued for my other abilites :)

Pure healers are always popular, even if many think they are boring.

Originally posted by Vargur

Originally posted by Zinzan

Originally posted by Stormakov

LOL I'm sorry.... if you ever ran an 8man in DAoC with a healer that "just healed" you should've kicked them out.

Clerics and Druid had much more to do than just heal, and Healers (the class in midgard was actually called "Healer") had even more than those two.

Some of the best healers in the game were the ones that could keep everyone alive in their group while simultaneously interupting casters, aplying stuns, dieseases, mezs, roots, shearing buffs from enemies, rebuffing allies, using MLs and RAs, curing dieseases, dots and nearsight, keeping celerity up!  etc, etc.

While I agree dedicated healers add a (imo mandatory) layer of strategy for enjoyable PvP, lets not pretend llike 90% of MMOs don't already use them. Honestly, GW2 is probably only Triple A MMORPG to have come out in the past forever that hasn't used dedicated healers.

+1, this guy gets it.

He got the job description right, but the roles mixed up. Pac-healers didn't have access to celerity, buff shearing, or diseases, but Aug-healers and Shamans did. His key point that healers did much more than just heal is correct though.

While my pac-healer spent 10 minutes killing a AFK with her 2h Hammer (I was so nervous expecting the guy to return before I had time to complete the kill), I didn't mind because I was valued for my other abilites :)

Pure healers are always popular, even if many think they are boring.

Pretty sure he was generalizing across all three of the arch healers / support healers ... ie clerics, druids, healer shaman

Pocket healing is back :O

No Pocket Healer for you Xile...

Only for Belgarth

regards

Belgarth