Originally posted by grimfall
Bring back the Wizardy Ninja!

Done.

Assassins do not have to be built around stealth. GW original shows this clearly, with an assassin that revolves around high mobility and has teleports (shadow step). This role of mobility and getting to support targets quickly to dispatch pivotal links in a foes survival is a very relevant role.

The whole invisibility thing is, well it's out of place... Unfortunately, the maps, environment and detailed interaction do not allow for significant use of real stealth, invisibility just simplifies the method of hiding and sneaking up on foes because it can't rationally and effectively be done otherwise. While I don't think invisibility needs to be removed from MMOs, I do feel it doesn't belong on the typical assassin or ninja or theif... it's a magical effect.

If we do get around to having detailed environs and allow assassins or rogue type classes situational stealth, it would be cool, but they don't really work well in realistic combat anyway, so outside of hiding in brush, climbing up trees and concealing themselves in specially designed nooks, which honestly would be a chore to include in a large MMO world, it doesn't seem like a very plausible concept to have legit stealth or use it for cannon assassin behavior, it's better to stick with the speed route, hard to catch and easy infultration.

This mobility role and the strategy of reaching soft targets which are typically hedging behind defenders is very relevant, and who else will do it beside an assassin?, that's what their doing, assassinating, their going for poorly defended and valuable targets instead of engaging the battle proper. How to do it well and how to make an interesting system of advantages and retalitory methods is circumstancial, but the role is legit.

Originally posted by Sephiroso
anyone who thinks invisibility doesn't belong in an mmo or with the assassin archetype class because its a magical effect...needs to take 2 steps back and think about that for a moment.

Do I have to take two actual steps or can I use a teleport spell? ;)

Originally posted by TheScavenger

They are only modified warriors. They are like DPS warriors, but more fail.

 

A real Assassin is that of Assassin's Creed, or the thief games (the older ones anyway)

 

A fake Assassin has imaginary stealth or some fake cloaking ability.

 

So...why the heck include them at all? 

You already answered your own question. Its because they dont want to make a good assassin class (like ezio or the thief guy) without running into balance issues, and still run into them with the modified warrior you mentioned. Not just because of the stealth being good or bad, they are just warriors with daggers unless they can make a real assassin class that keeps on the shadows and climb stuff to attack from above, very sneaky and lethal. In which case they would want to have every class able to climb stuff, do aerial attacks jumping form a roof or a tree, and being a shadow lurker with a different animation just to avoid people who prefer other classes to QQ that they dont get those features.Therefore, rendering the assassin class jsut crappy without unique abilities from an actual sneaky rogue. So they just make a modified warrior that uses daggers and medium armor and becomes invisible, sometimes.

I would prefer a PvE only game where theres zero balance between classes, i dont care about pvp so they dont have to be balanced in relation to other classes. Each class totally unique with capabilities that no other class have. Specially if there are different factions in game. A warrior in one faction is not a mirror to a warrior of other faction, and so on. Specially assassin classes. You want to play an assassin? be ready to play as an actual rogue assassin, in the shadows and being sneaky and deadly most of the time. You want to be a mage? be ready to study magic to gain power, not just some npc selling you powers. It applies to all classes.

You want pvp that leads to every class being crappy for the sake of balance? go play other games. Lots of pvp games out there and none seem to get it right when doing the same mirroring and balancing thing. Try a different path. forget about the balance, make them all fun in their own way.

I would totally play an mmo that doesnt have boring classes because they have to make them all similar jsut to be balanced. Thats nonsense to me.

My thoughts and preference, noone has to agree.

Originally posted by rojo6934

Originally posted by TheScavenger

They are only modified warriors. They are like DPS warriors, but more fail.

 

A real Assassin is that of Assassin's Creed, or the thief games (the older ones anyway)

 

A fake Assassin has imaginary stealth or some fake cloaking ability.

 

So...why the heck include them at all? 

You already answered your own question. Its because they dont want to make a good assassin class (like ezio or the thief guy) without running into balance issues, and still run into them with the modified warrior you mentioned. Not just because of the stealth being good or bad, they are just warriors with daggers unless they can make a real assassin class that keeps on the shadows and climb stuff to attack from above, very sneaky and lethal. In which case they would want to have every class able to climb stuff, do aerial attacks jumping form a roof or a tree, and being a shadow lurker with a different animation just to avoid people who prefer other classes to QQ that they dont get those features.Therefore, rendering the assassin class jsut crappy without unique abilities from an actual sneaky rogue. So they just make a modified warrior that uses daggers and medium armor and becomes invisible, sometimes.

 

I would prefer a PvE only game where theres zero balance between classes, i dont care about pvp so they dont have to be balanced in relation to other classes. Each class totally unique with capabilities that no other class have. Specially if there are different factions in game. A warrior in one faction is not a mirror to a warrior of other faction, and so on. Specially assassin classes. You want to play an assassin? be ready to play as an actual rogue assassin, in the shadows and being sneaky and deadly most of the time. You want to be a mage? be ready to study magic to gain power, not just some npc selling you powers. It applies to all classes.

 

You want pvp that leads to every class being crappy for the sake of balance? go play other games. Lots of pvp games out there and none seem to get it right when doing the same mirroring and balancing thing. Try a different path. forget about the balance, make them all fun in their own way.

 

I would totally play an mmo that doesnt have boring classes because they have to make them all similar jsut to be balanced. Thats nonsense to me.

 

My thoughts and preference, noone has to agree.

yeah, I think it must be for the PvP reasons. No MMO has actually done an Assassin's Creed or Thief style Assassin...but I can see that since most/all MMOs include PvP...they purposely make them lame.

Your ideas are rather awesome though. I would love to be a Mage that actually has to study, not just magically buy a spell from some random NPC. Asheron's Call sorta did this years ago (trying out various ingredients and combinations), but they changed it I believe later in life.

Actual very unique classes that have their own mechanics. Unique in that...an Assassin that climbs, blends in with the crowd, sneaks in the shadows. Or a mage that has to study, do proper spellcasting (with a mouse or whatever). And other mechanics for other classes.

All this has been done in Singleplayer games, not so much or at all in an MMO.

I think all MMO’s should include the Assassin class.  If for only one reason, income. 

Now for the caveat.

There has to be a fully independent pvp area separate from the ”real” pvp, full of NPC opponents that the assassins can hunt and use their “I win” skill on.  They can run around totally invisible and pretend they are skillful.  This way they remain happy killing people without the chance of reprisal.  And the rest of us benefit from a healthier game company.   And not to mention a more realistic game :)

Originally posted by TheScavenger

They are only modified warriors. They are like DPS warriors, but more fail.

A real Assassin is that of Assassin's Creed, or the thief games (the older ones anyway)

A fake Assassin has imaginary stealth or some fake cloaking ability.

So...why the heck include them at all? 

MMOs usually make assassins rather badly, yes. Problem is that stealth mechanics in MMOs aint good enough, AoC did a good try but they never got the mechanics to work right.

MMOs should really try to make the rogue classes better but a lot of the problem is the mob AI, they usually just know when you are near and attack automatically, except if you stealth which make you safe no matter what.

Stealth should have variables for lightning, terrain and so on, and characters and mobs should have a spot or listen skill that might reveal you like in pen and paper games.

Backstabbing should of course be buffed in that case as well since the stealth might fail.

There aren't many that do it right but some manage to. DDO, Neverwinter and LOTRO are good examples, they make rogue's/assassins important in a party one way or an other. Other MMO's make  them to get PvP balanced  and usually screw up with it.

Still it's not a useless class be it as DPSers or for some rather unique system as in DDO/Neverwinter/LOTRO, where having a rogue in your party helps a great deal.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

They are only modified warriors. They are like DPS warriors, but more fail.

 

A real Assassin is that of Assassin's Creed, or the thief games (the older ones anyway)

 

A fake Assassin has imaginary stealth or some fake cloaking ability.

Fake cloaking ability....

...like sitting on a bench and (effectively) disappearing?

Very good question indeed.

Tradition is the only answer I can think of.

The fact is, any game with a decent amount of PvP is ridiculous putting PC assassins in.

Assassins are characterised by not being detected, killing swiftly and either dying a suicidal death due to how well their target is protected, or slinking off and not being known.

How does ANY of this work in an MMO?

Nobody likes being attacked by invisible people who can kill before you can have a chance to respond (the effective assassin).

Nobody likes playing a class who has few defences, goes down like toilet paper in the rain and can't kill fast in compensation (the ineffective assassin).

If you balance between these extremes, then you get an unarmoured warrior who needs more or less skill to play and endless complaints about them not being able to 'kill fast and get away'.

You can't win with this trope - they shouldn't be in MMO games at all.

Assassins Creed is a great single player game, but would be a LOUSY MMO.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

They are only modified warriors. They are like DPS warriors, but more fail.

 

A real Assassin is that of Assassin's Creed, or the thief games (the older ones anyway)

 

A fake Assassin has imaginary stealth or some fake cloaking ability.

 

So...why the heck include them at all? 

The main problem is, that nowadays MMORPGs are all about fighting and no other activities. And with that said every class every profession becomes a fighter. Like every mage kind class becomes a battle mage.. of course you could drop them all and just go with Warriors.. but a MMORPG with just one class/profession is somewhat lacking, right?

The better approach would be to make MMOs again more RPG-like and add a lot of other activities, a lot of other gameplay options and then again a Assassin or a Thief could be viable, or playable again. Think about it how nice it would be to really be able (like in Thief 1-3) to break into a house/castle/whatever to accomplish some thief missions, or to assassinate a victim you were paid for. But nowadays MMORPGs are not worth the name.. nor any profession apart from Warriors.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Cochran1

Originally posted by Distopia
DDO has a strictly PVE design, making it a must to have such mechanics available to rogues and the like. In a PVP game they have many uses, mainly taking out casters, detecting other stealth classes and recon. Without such a class casters would dominate group pvp dynamics, which in many cases they already do, think how it would be without stealth classes.

 I would imagine they could add utility to the existing pool of mele classes to close the gap, because in most games melee roles always spec the highest dps for pvp.

DDO has a prestige build for an assassin rogue using stealth and an assassination ability, but since it's still a theif based class the stealth abilities as well as utility skills all use the same base stats. That style class could still work in a game with pvp because it's damage is based on sneak attack and flanking bonuses.

 

The thing you're forgetting is a well played caster will see that melee class coming from a mile away. In a group PVP situation there's a lot of ground to cover to reach that caster, he has the advantage not to mention allies that are in your way.. Hence the stealth ability allowing a certain class to sneak behind that line and deal the blows needed to at least distract the casters in the rear.

 

 The points I was attempting to make is,

1. The developers have been cheating the people who enjoy playing that class by limiting the mechanics of the role mainly to stealth and burst/critical damage. It's pigeonholed many into rolling the class for nothing but PVP.

2. They could also add more depth to gameplay by adding picklocking and trapfinding/disabling without taking away the damage aspect of the class. From reading many, many posts on these forums alone I've come to the conclusion that there is a large part of the community who want something deeper to their gameplay.

I'm just saying that innovation isn't necessary, all we need are developers willing to go all the way rather than take the shortcuts. That's what they did when they first implemented these style of classes. Someone didn't wan't to take the time to do it right so the rest of the game was simplified to make them viable classes. Other developers saw it and followed suit.

Originally posted by Sephiroso
anyone who thinks invisibility doesn't belong in an mmo or with the assassin archetype class because its a magical effect...needs to take 2 steps back and think about that for a moment.

These are the same people who don't like Taunt skill because it doesn't work in PVP.... just make it work in PVP.