Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by CalmOceans

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

It just seems like really weak design for a persistent world that such a thing is even possible. It's a problem that seems to exist primarily in themepark-focused MMOs.

Well, I still need to play the first game that doesn't  have progression of some kind. Street Gears is the only MMO I played that wasn't really progression based, but it's a a very different type of MMO.

EQ, WoW, Vanguard, LOTRO, Vindictus, EVE, FFXIV, RIft, etc. All of those games are progression based games.

You're looking at it in an unnecessarily binary fashion.

In games like UO, EVE, ATITD, and Puzzle Pirates it is rare, if ever, that someone 'falls behind' because those games aren't linear in design or progression. There's more to do than just murder progressively higher level creatures, there's definitely far less level disparity, and there is much more accommodation of having mixed groups of players engaging in activities.

You can still have progression and not have a game where people are playing catch up or getting left behind because they missed a day of playing.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

People tend to seek the path of least resistance in MMO, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting an easier game, but with the ability to follow the community.

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

I actually tend to play alts if I'm ahead of friends I like playing with, just so I don't skip ahead of them.

That's very much why I don't like to play in groups.  I am the guy who wants to linger.  I'm the one who wants to take it slow and be methodical and kill every enemy and loot every chest in every single dungeon I play through.  Virtually everyone else wants to rush to the end, kill the boss, then do it again in their mad dash to endgame.  I have no interest in endgame, I have no interest in being left behind the screaming idiots, therefore I don't want to play with them in the first place.  I spend most of my time "behind" everyone else, but since I'm not competitive, since I couldn't care less where I rank in comparison to anyone else, it doesn't bother me a bit.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by CalmOceans

People tend to seek the path of least resistance in MMO, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting an easier game, but with the ability to follow the community.

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

I actually tend to play alts if I'm ahead of friends I like playing with, just so I don't skip ahead of them.

That's very much why I don't like to play in groups.  I am the guy who wants to linger.  I'm the one who wants to take it slow and be methodical and kill every enemy and loot every chest in every single dungeon I play through.  Virtually everyone else wants to rush to the end, kill the boss, then do it again in their mad dash to endgame.  I have no interest in endgame, I have no interest in being left behind the screaming idiots, therefore I don't want to play with them in the first place.  I spend most of my time "behind" everyone else, but since I'm not competitive, since I couldn't care less where I rank in comparison to anyone else, it doesn't bother me a bit.

so old school games would actually suit your playstyle. because evrything takes alot longer there u wont get behind because people will always be at your level. there arnt alot of screaming idiots there because it takes too long for them.

or have we not been able to make u see these points?

Originally posted by xeniar

you might ay the endles XP is more shallow u are probaply right but you are also wrong. People within your party (yeah you tought i was gonna solo?) make that grind so much more enjoyable but that is if the combat has a certain amount of downtime so you can talk with them have fun with them. and please. questing not shalow? kill 7 trolls. collect 15 seaweed kill one big guy and after that kill 10 deer collect 20 drake bones and kill another big guy.  OMG man it has so much depth.

 Let me give you an example about people's diffrent thinking about beating a game. Im currently playing Tomb Raider on ps3, my goal for that game is beat the endboss and collect evrything inside that game. then i am done with it i "completed" the game.  A friend of mine played for 10 hours rushed trough it did not collect or search for anything beat the endboss and tought the game wasnt any fun. So here we are both beating the game but not having done the same thing because our goals are diffrent. another friend of mine would say that we Both did not beat the game because having it on platinum is the ultimate end of the game wich is true. but that requires multiplayer and i will not touch it because it does not intrest me.

And in WoW your not required to have all achievments and mounts etc to beat the game people have diffrent goals. When i reach mine i am done with it. despite their being more content. This is how content locust also think. actually i quited alot of the new MMO's without completing them because its the same old shit we get spoonfed.

Socialization exists in both systems, so it's a non-factor to the argument.  In fact just over the weekend I played a ton of heroics with an RL friend who started playing again.  (And relevant to this thread it should be noted that WOW's fast max level is precisely why he was able to play with me.)

Questing is certainly less shallow than endlessly grinding the same mob for hours, yes.  The number of varying factors tossed at you while questing (different tasks; different mob abilities; optimizing travel time) is considerably higher than sitting in the same area grinding the same mob types for extended periods of time.

It's fine not to fixate on the "100% completion" end type I mentioned.  I don't focus on that either: I don't care at all about collectibles or achievements in games.  The problem is you have a professed desire for depth, then choose to only play a game at its shallowest by not tackling harder difficulties.  That's just silly.

Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by CalmOceans

People tend to seek the path of least resistance in MMO, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting an easier game, but with the ability to follow the community.

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

I actually tend to play alts if I'm ahead of friends I like playing with, just so I don't skip ahead of them.

That's very much why I don't like to play in groups.  I am the guy who wants to linger.  I'm the one who wants to take it slow and be methodical and kill every enemy and loot every chest in every single dungeon I play through.  Virtually everyone else wants to rush to the end, kill the boss, then do it again in their mad dash to endgame.  I have no interest in endgame, I have no interest in being left behind the screaming idiots, therefore I don't want to play with them in the first place.  I spend most of my time "behind" everyone else, but since I'm not competitive, since I couldn't care less where I rank in comparison to anyone else, it doesn't bother me a bit.

so old school games would actually suit your playstyle. because evrything takes alot longer there u wont get behind because people will always be at your level.

Only if you get in on or close to the ground floor.  Otherwise, the fact that everything takes longer works against you instead.  Everyone's ahead of you already, and the common 'oldschool experience' (EQ) tends to make you *need* them to get anywhere yourself.  So you actually fall further behind.

The only thing in what he said that might make 'old-school' suitable for him, is that he doesn't care if he gets left behind.

there arnt alot of screaming idiots there because it takes too long for them.

Disagree there.  The screaming idiots were still around, they just had a different flavor.

"I'm hardcore cuz i wait half an hour for a boat.  man up or gtfo noob."

People.. the word "grind" has different meaning to each of you. But let me remind all of you what the actual definition of "grind" is

Grind = Experience points.

those who do want to earn, are those who want arcade action.

Originally posted by xeniar

That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will".

Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?

So now it is not oke for him to make the group wait but it is oke for YOU to leave that group in the middle of a zone where they would most likeley die because it is in your convience.

I love it how you just change your toughts evrytime in every post you make.

Because I *can* quit whenever i want .. and i won't put up with waiting.

What thought is changed? In fact, quitting is much better than waiting ... if someone quit, i don't have to wait for him, do i?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xeniar

That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will".

Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?

So now it is not oke for him to make the group wait but it is oke for YOU to leave that group in the middle of a zone where they would most likeley die because it is in your convience.

I love it how you just change your toughts evrytime in every post you make.

Because I *can* quit whenever i want .. and i won't put up with waiting.

What thought is changed? In fact, quitting is much better than waiting ... if someone quit, i don't have to wait for him, do i?

You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by Cephus404

That's very much why I don't like to play in groups.  I am the guy who wants to linger.  I'm the one who wants to take it slow and be methodical and kill every enemy and loot every chest in every single dungeon I play through.  Virtually everyone else wants to rush to the end, kill the boss, then do it again in their mad dash to endgame.  I have no interest in endgame, I have no interest in being left behind the screaming idiots, therefore I don't want to play with them in the first place.  I spend most of my time "behind" everyone else, but since I'm not competitive, since I couldn't care less where I rank in comparison to anyone else, it doesn't bother me a bit.

so old school games would actually suit your playstyle. because evrything takes alot longer there u wont get behind because people will always be at your level. there arnt alot of screaming idiots there because it takes too long for them.

or have we not been able to make u see these points?

No, it's not people being at my level, it's people in my group wanting to push on ahead faster than I want to go there.  If I want to take 2 hours to go through a dungeon and the people I'm playing with want to be out in 10 minutes, there's a fundamental difference in playstyle.  My playstyle is nothing like old-school games, I don't want to be artificially slowed down, I want to go at the pace I choose to go at.

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Originally posted by Cephus404

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Originally posted by xeniar

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Originally posted by Cephus404 That's very much why I don't like to play in groups.  I am the guy who wants to linger.  I'm the one who wants to take it slow and be methodical and kill every enemy and loot every chest in every single dungeon I play through.  Virtually everyone else wants to rush to the end, kill the boss, then do it again in their mad dash to endgame.  I have no interest in endgame, I have no interest in being left behind the screaming idiots, therefore I don't want to play with them in the first place.  I spend most of my time "behind" everyone else, but since I'm not competitive, since I couldn't care less where I rank in comparison to anyone else, it doesn't bother me a bit.

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so old school games would actually suit your playstyle. because evrything takes alot longer there u wont get behind because people will always be at your level. there arnt alot of screaming idiots there because it takes too long for them. or have we not been able to make u see these points?

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No, it's not people being at my level, it's people in my group wanting to push on ahead faster than I want to go there.  If I want to take 2 hours to go through a dungeon and the people I'm playing with want to be out in 10 minutes, there's a fundamental difference in playstyle.  My playstyle is nothing like old-school games, I don't want to be artificially slowed down, I want to go at the pace I choose to go at.

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You are making a case for a deeper, lerger game. But you are confusing your playstyle with others. If others cannot handle a dungeon and move on after 2h, while others spend weeks exploring... what does any of that have to do with oldschool or a grind.

You sound upset that others do things faster than you. Sin e they do, u want a game where nobody can move thru content faster than you. Instead of understanding why/how people move thru dungeons faster than you. This upsets you, because you take in things more slowly than other playstyles.

Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

The content (ie dungeon) is all there for the taking and exploring, if u want to zpend 5h in there, dont vet upset at those who only stay 2h. Seems like u want a game to cater fo your needs.

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by xeniar

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That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will". Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?

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So now it is not oke for him to make the group wait but it is oke for YOU to leave that group in the middle of a zone where they would most likeley die because it is in your convience. I love it how you just change your toughts evrytime in every post you make.

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Because I *can* quit whenever i want .. and i won't put up with waiting. What thought is changed? In fact, quitting is much better than waiting ... if someone quit, i don't have to wait for him, do i?

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Face it Narius, you play arcade games for entertainment only & already said u dont care to socially interact. You prefere free games and microtransactions and think lobby play (instancing) is the holy grail.

So why are u not spending you multiple 15m of play time on consol games? Which is meant for that type of erratic in/out gameplay. Narius, why are you not playing BF3..? It is everything you are a proponent of.

Why are you here on mmorpg forums if you dont like mmorpgs...?

The issue of being handicapped by being left behind and requiring assistance should have been improved a long time ago. I had always hoped character progression would be equivalent and comparable by level so a combination of weaker units could face the same challenge in cooperation as a powerful unit, or any mix totalling the same power.

For example, let's say there are 5 level ten players and 1 level fifty players, if the character growth and stats were balanced properly, and damage penetration wasn't completely diminished by huge thresholds, it would allow the 5 weaker units to operate at about the same power as the single unit 5 times more powerful then the latter. This creates situations where a challenge can be set at level 100 difficulty, but the group facing that content could be any combination totalling up to 100.

I don't presume to say you'd have to team up because of this opportunity, but by allowing mixed cooperation and effectiveness, said level 100 challenge could be faced by two LVL 50s, ten LVL 10s, two 30s and two 20s, or five LVL 10s + a LVL 50. This system of equitable power makes it much easier to participate with others. It also opens up opportunities for mixed level PvP content which remains competitive based on total power present on a team.

I don't know if that's a solution your interested in, but its a possibility...

Originally posted by Arclan

O.P. you need some perspective. Permit me to offer a similar situiation. If a hypothetical game let players create whatever characters they wanted to, which route would players take?

1. create a level 1 character with no gear and very weak stats
2. create a level 1000 character with the best gear in the game and max stats.

Obviously everyone would pick (2) and your logic would conclude players don't like RPGs.

Let me throw a bug into your conclusion because I would pick 1, every single time.

I enjoy the "journey" in the games I play(mmorpgs and even simple console rpgs) and in fact avoid getting to endgame by redoing the activities along the way(some would call that grinding I suppose) because if I'm enjoying the journey why would I want it to end?  Before you ask, if I don't find the journey to be fun then I simply don't play that game and no endgame options the devs could throw at me would convince me otherwise.

Originally posted by rojo6934

grind should not = progression IN ANY WAY. That was years ago. Leave it in the sad and forgotten past full of grind. The present wants to keep fighting to keep the grind alive. Thats Enough!.... Remove levels, Remove grinds, Remove everything that is not fun (grind tops the list). Any sort of progression should be fun, challenging, and interesting. Not a horrible grind because thats what i need to do to get my nea gear...... gear grind is also BS. Away with all that crap.

 

Sometimes i think all these devs/pubs that keep adding this crap to mmos think we are some kind of zombies that will give them money just because. Stop the crap or you aint getting a dime from me. If devs need enough time to make more content, add dev kits for people to create their own content like the foundry. Also dont add levels. Levels only lead to an imaginary end game that noone ever sees.  When i log out and uninstall the game for any reason, thats when i can say i reached end game. Im done.

and how would you propose they do that without someone eventually screaming "grind".

You say that progression should be fun (which is subjective but I digress) but the act of progressing from one place, state, level, etc needs to take x amount of time.

Are you saying that the progression should come in faster bits? Because eventualy someone will point out that all those faster bits are a grind to get to the top of whatever that place is.

One could say "you have quests that eventually get to the next level, stat increase, extra perk, etc" but one might point out that doing "x" amount of quests is a grind because they don't want to do those quests.

Essentially, if you are going to progress, whether that be horizontally or vertically, there is a sort of journey going on there. What are you thinking of that gets you from one point to another that someone, somewhere, isn't going to eventually call "a grind" because they don't want to do it?

I personally like the Elderscrolls system of using a skill during regular course of play and eventualy it raises. Except that some players actually grind out those skills to get them higher. And even in online games I hear that players would use cheats or methods to continually do something, not through regular game play, to raise their stats.

So already the player has created a grind where there shouldn't be one. As always, their own worst enemies.

Whether "someone" claims it is grind is fairly irrelevant. If they are in the overwhelming minority, or just trying to troll, than their opinion isn't really meaningful. The objective is to make gameplay satisfying for most players across most interests, or a large enough group to maintain an acceptable customer base. People need to stop serving up exceptions as limitations, the concern is identifying and satisfying most players as best one can, not serving every exception without cause.

Maybe a developer can hit the largest group of interest, maybe they can hit divergent interests with a solution that fits both, or maybe they just try to serve a large untapped market. One way or another, making games players want and eliminating grind can be done, even if its only bit by bit, with different games for different ppl. Just because "somebody" isn't satisfied doesn't mean its not a proper or necessary endeavour.

Originally posted by Phelcher

 

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You are making a case for a deeper, lerger game. But you are confusing your playstyle with others. If others cannot handle a dungeon and move on after 2h, while others spend weeks exploring... what does any of that have to do with oldschool or a grind.

I'm not making a case for anything, I'm stating my preference.  That's how I like to play.  I don't care how anyone else plays, but the fact that everyone else seems to play at a faster rate than I enjoy means I really have no interest in playing in groups.  It's not fun for me to run after them, it's not fun for them to wait up for me, therefore we can part ways and play our own respective ways.

You sound upset that others do things faster than you. Sin e they do, u want a game where nobody can move thru content faster than you. Instead of understanding why/how people move thru dungeons faster than you. This upsets you, because you take in things more slowly than other playstyles.

I'm not upset at all, I simply understand the reality and choose to do things my own way.  While it might be nice if I had other people to play with, I'm perfectly find just soloing through all of the content, as is necessary in order to have fun playing the game.

Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

In order to feel inadequate, one would have to give a shit about anyone else playing the game.  I don't.  I'm not remotely competitive.  I'm happy soloing.

The content (ie dungeon) is all there for the taking and exploring, if u want to zpend 5h in there, dont vet upset at those who only stay 2h. Seems like u want a game to cater fo your needs.

I'm not upset, why do you think that anyone who makes an observation is upset about the observation.  It is what it is.  I play games that are fun for me.  If they're not fun, I don't play.

Originally posted by xeniar

 

You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

It is my entertainment .. of course it is me, me, me .. what do you expect? Play games to entertain you?

And i am going to play a MMO tonight with that attitude. There is really nothing you can do about it.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Phelcher

Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

In order to feel inadequate, one would have to give a shit about anyone else playing the game.  I don't.  I'm not remotely competitive.  I'm happy soloing.

Typical assumption of competitive people is that they think everyone is competitive.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xeniar

 

You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

It is my entertainment .. of course it is me, me, me .. what do you expect? Play games to entertain you?

And i am going to play a MMO tonight with that attitude. There is really nothing you can do about it.

 

yeah its your entertainment but your playing with OTHER people. U my friend are a Jerk plain and simple. i wonder how life is treating u out there. ah and skip the friend part we could never be.