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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Dedicated Buffing Classes

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83 posts found
  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/15/13 12:18:16 PM#61

4 classes with 2-3 completely different type of spec lines basically makes 8-12 classes so that could work. Thing with daoc is it had 10 classes but most caster / melee spec lines were just different weapon type or diff damage type of spell so you needed a different class for a different utility ( ie pbaoe instead of DD type )

Healer, Melee, Caster, Hybrid support/speed

I would love to see more, especially stealther type that can go bow or melee... so much more immersive having stealthers climb walls and spy in keeps / control the walls - imo.

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/15/13 12:27:31 PM#62
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

I couldn't agree more but it's a bit of the "chicken or the egg" thing. I don't want to commit on archers, assassins, stealth, etc. until  we really have a chance to talk it through. I will say I have no plans to implement a system where someone can push a button, go invisible, attack (short range, long range, etc.), push the same button and go invisible again, rinse, wash and repeat. But there's a rather wide gulf between that and no stealth at all. For what it's worth, I've played a lot of long-range damage dealers over the years and I do enjoy the dynamic but I don't want them to be JAFA. :)

Keep on keepin' on, Mark.  Your game plan sounds great.  This may be the new template for game development!

 

*"JAFA?  Just Another F*cking Archer(?)*

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  zekuel

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/13
Posts: 39

3/15/13 1:12:49 PM#63
Another thought for buff classes is to have buffs affect groups 100% and other allies only 50%. Also keep buffs on the low end of the stats and let multiple buffs stack. This way having one buff class in group does not over power you but if you have a full group of buff classes in one group you would be super strong but also would lack the utility of the other classes making buffs a nice boost but not a nessecity. Also if you have multiple buff classes you would want them to have other utilities to help out your group. This could help with roll restrictions other players might put on you and your class.
  Hairyzac

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 57

3/15/13 1:23:28 PM#64

I'm really hoping to see a support class with some quality CC in his bag.  Back when I first began playing WoW (please no flames it was fun back then honest!), I played a level 60 mage.  My favorite thing about that class was the awesome CC/utility that it had.  You could control an entire group of people trying to ride by on their mounts in Warsong Gulch.  Freeze them all, then dismounting them one by one with Polymorph.  Then when they all finally realize they have to fight you, freeze, slow, blink, and you're gone.  I really would like to see a class like this in CU.  Certainly it doesn't have to do crazy burst like the original WoW mage as CU will revolve around a system of roles and not homogenize everything.

I just love harassing groups of people with CC.  It is one of my favorite things to do in any game.

  zekuel

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/13
Posts: 39

3/15/13 1:48:09 PM#65
Bring back the importance of rezzing. New games with warfronts/battleground have lost the importance of turning the tide of battle and rezzing your groupmates. It's all just release and run back now. I do like the downed system in GW2 but I don't like the kill after and no chance to rez. I would like to see no rez sickness and maybe a min 15-30 second timer before you can release. Give someone a chance to get you up. I have only had epic battles in Daoc because of the importance of rezzing. Also I love me some bridge camping. Make some good bridges by keeps.
  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/15/13 1:54:51 PM#66
Originally posted by zekuel
Bring back the importance of rezzing. New games with warfronts/battleground have lost the importance of turning the tide of battle and rezzing your groupmates. It's all just release and run back now. I do like the downed system in GW2 but I don't like the kill after and no chance to rez. I would like to see no rez sickness and maybe a min 15-30 second timer before you can release. Give someone a chance to get you up. I have only had epic battles in Daoc because of the importance of rezzing. Also I love me some bridge camping. Make some good bridges by keeps.

He has already stated this. Hopefully there are really long timeouts before forced rez too. When I died far away from my rez point in daoc used to be interesting watching the battle go down and possibly getting a rez.

Please no AoE rez ( from egg of youth ) :(

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2820

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/15/13 1:58:19 PM#67
Originally posted by KazoWAR
What are your thoughts on dedicated buffing classes. Do you like the idea of a few classes/specs having all the buffs, or do you like the idea of all classes having 1 buff to contribute to the group? If you like dedicated buffing classes what are your thoughts on buff bots? Would you hope that CSE would implement some kinda of anti-buffbot mechanic?

let he jsut say F** NO!

 

Buff Bots were the bane of that game and would of eventually caused me to quit if not for the debacle that was Trials of Atlantis.  Anygame that features dedicated and limited buffbots is a game doomed to failure.  If you want buffing, then you do a Asheron's Call where the buffer is not limited to how many buffs he can have up.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Krille82

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 5

3/15/13 2:01:45 PM#68
A way around the BB aspect could be to make all buffs have a duration of maybe 10 - 20 secs, that way the Buffer would need to be active, maybe even give him some interrupts/debuffs.
  kaltahn

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/10
Posts: 31

Spoiler: He was dead the whole time.

3/15/13 4:29:47 PM#69
Originally posted by Krille82
A way around the BB aspect could be to make all buffs have a duration of maybe 10 - 20 secs, that way the Buffer would need to be active, maybe even give him some interrupts/debuffs.

This.  I'd much rather see buffs be extremely powerful, yet very short duration with a moderate cooldown (relative to the rate of combat).  I wouldn't like to see buffs that last an hour or are on a "concentration" basis - I want buffs that cause my opponent to say "Oh CRAP" when they go off, but with the knowledge that once those buffs expire, they'll be ready to counter attack (if they survive).  To this effect, I'm also kinda against "bard"-type buffing, too - sure, if you weaved it perfectly you could manage some amazing things, but that pretty much also made the role indespensible AND if you weren't absolutely perfect at that role, you were likely blamed for failure and then summarily dismissed from the group.

A 'dedicated' buff class, in my oppinion, would be medium-to-low on the DPS scale with moderate to high-end survivability, who shines primarily when grouped with the other extreme archetypes (boosts a tank's DPS and boosts a glass cannon's survivability) on a burst-y basis.

  Wolvan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/04
Posts: 50

3/15/13 6:22:52 PM#70
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

I couldn't agree more but it's a bit of the "chicken or the egg" thing. I don't want to commit on archers, assassins, stealth, etc. until  we really have a chance to talk it through. I will say I have no plans to implement a system where someone can push a button, go invisible, attack (short range, long range, etc.), push the same button and go invisible again, rinse, wash and repeat. But there's a rather wide gulf between that and no stealth at all. For what it's worth, I've played a lot of long-range damage dealers over the years and I do enjoy the dynamic but I don't want them to be JAFA. :)

Mark,

 

Yes, your love of stealthers (especially shadowblades) was well known in DAOC.  *sarcasm!*

 

As somebody who has played stealther's and non-stealthers, some possible modifications that could help appease people is giving stealth a cast time.  I don't remember actually having seen that mentioned before. 

Think about it...if stealth had a 3-5 second cast time, can't be moving while casting etc.  You wouldn't be able to use it as an escape method unless you really did escape.  You would really have to break LOS or be far enough away to avoid interrupts.   Heck, you could even put a small cast timer for going from stealth back to visible, say 1 second (vice being able to attack from stealth).   Make it an ability used for scouting and gathering information, but not for dropping huge attacks on people.  Or...have it that people in stealth can ONLY attack other people in stealth.  To attack people out of stealth, they have to drop out of stealth first.  (sorta works into the stealth world phase on top of the regular world).

 

To summerize (sorry, some of the stuff came as I typed)

1: Cast time on stealth.  Cast time on exiting stealth? (shorter)

2: In stealth, you can only attack other people in stealth (do they both stay in stealth or both come out...come out I think)

3: To attack somebody not in stealth, you need to NOT be in stealth.

 

This allows the use of stealthed scouts AND encourages the use of "defensive" stealthers to clear enemy scouts.  Stealthers would go out early to make sure the area has been sanitized of enemy scouts.  It also allows you to basically give any class type to be your stealther.  You could even give the class with stealth some stealth abilties...sabatoge, traps etc.  Would make an army be sure to deploy its own stealthers to counter these abilities. 

  Bordog

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/08
Posts: 34

3/15/13 7:12:26 PM#71

First, as for the topic of buffs and buff-bots, I would rather not have them and follow a system of active debuffing.

Second, all of this classes talk and comments from Mark are awesome. The one thing that I am concerned about (that I experienced in DAOC) is viability of a spec. For instance, I played a Wizard in DAOC. For the most part a fire wizard was preferred and sometimes an ice wizard. Rarely was earth ever used and when I tried to use it it just wasn't as effective as the other specs. 

Playing a minstrel was also frustrating. I loved the speed buff, as I'm sure most everyone did, but it was a bitch to level one of those guys up. Maybe I didn't understand the class mechanics or it just isn't a class you could solo very well with. 

I like the idea of having 4-5 classes that are well balanced  and can spec differently. But I want each of those specs to actually be viable for playing.

 

Edit: typo

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

3/15/13 7:42:40 PM#72

I'm worried with that few classes they will hybridize them too much.

the array of "specialized" classes made the game great. 

Class needs to fill a small niche 

  Sensai

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/04
Posts: 92

3/15/13 8:22:56 PM#73

Mark,

 

I think you are spot on with this approach.  However, I do believe it is imperative that a speed class is present at launch.  I know you touched on speed buffs a few posts back, but the existence of group speed buffs is one of the most fundamental reasons that DAoC worked.  Speed (along with healing of course) is what brought people together in RvR.  It forced you to stay with your group.  While that may seem draconian, such forced constructs are necessary to create the group dyanmic that I believe is desired for CU.  Even for those of us who loved DAoC and pine for a return, many of us are going to need some help getting back in the mindset of working as a group and a realm.  As much as I hate to admit it, I know I have been corrupted by other games.  Even going back to WAR, while the holy trinity was in place and realm pride was present, for the most part, the cohesiveness and combat movements were lacking from what we had in DAoC.  While there are admitedly downsides to speed buffs (people failing off, groups moving on different speeds, etc.), I believe that the pressence of speed buffs is imperative to creating fluid combat and providing the ability to respond quickly to defend critical structures and throughpoints. 

  grimjakk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/06
Posts: 195

3/15/13 9:56:07 PM#74
Originally posted by naezgul

I'm worried with that few classes they will hybridize them too much.

the array of "specialized" classes made the game great. 

Class needs to fill a small niche 

 

I think that that's the reality of the development situation tho'.  I'd rather see it launch with 4 or 5 somewhat generic, but freely 'spec-able' classes per realm, than wait an extra year for them to design and implement the rogue's gallery of 'special mechanic' classes that they have in DAOC.

What are we gonna get?  Tank, melee DPS, ranged DPS, Heal, Buff/Debuff?

 

As long as the classes we do get are unique to each realm... that's kinda important.

I could see some hybridization working out pretty well, if it came with the weapon specialization system.  Say you want a sneaky, poison using, ranged DPS... have your rogue (meleeDPS) start using primarily bows from now on.  Or come from the other direction with a tank... and end up with something akin to a Midgard Hunter.

 

 

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

3/15/13 10:06:39 PM#75
Originally posted by grimjakk
Originally posted by naezgul

I'm worried with that few classes they will hybridize them too much.

the array of "specialized" classes made the game great. 

Class needs to fill a small niche 

 

I think that that's the reality of the development situation tho'.  I'd rather see it launch with 4 or 5 somewhat generic, but freely 'spec-able' classes per realm, than wait an extra year for them to design and implement the rogue's gallery of 'special mechanic' classes that they have in DAOC.

What are we gonna get?  Tank, melee DPS, ranged DPS, Heal, Buff/Debuff?

 

As long as the classes we do get are unique to each realm... that's kinda important.

I could see some hybridization working out pretty well, if it came with the weapon specialization system.  Say you want a sneaky, poison using, ranged DPS... have your rogue (meleeDPS) start using primarily bows from now on.  Or come from the other direction with a tank... and end up with something akin to a Midgard Hunter.

 

 

Not a fan of system like this......too much like GW2 .....which ssucks aye kick starter will give them enough starting cash to Hire more dev's and put out more toons at start

  giftkastare

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 6

3/17/13 12:29:59 PM#76

daoc was my favorite mmo so I have many opinions similar to many other fans but to just throw my own two cents in, these are my thoughts on how buffs should work in a game without a dedicated buffing class. There is still an obvious need to affect stats and abilities of another class. I go into this assuming that bard style class will make it into the game and therefore will be the most centered around being a buffer/debuffer.

 

pure healer based buffs-

the direct heals would provide a buff to the characters in relation to how much they were healed for therefore leveling with the quality of heals. These buffs would last 30-45 seconds. group heals provide group wide buffs. Heal over time heals can have a similar effect of removing debuffs from allies.

 

bard based buffs-

twist 2-3 lines while still somewhat viable to melee. lines along the ideas of end regen, mana regen, hp regen, speed buff, attack speed buff.

bard based debuffs would be centered on the bard (pbaoe) debuffs speed,attack speed, regens.

 

main tanks debuffs-

main tanks will have positionals to debuff. debuffs include heal %(bleed), debuff movement speed(leg gash), attack speed(arm slice), etc.

 

perhaps even throwing in MT's having lockdowns like stifles and stuns?

  Vargur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 142

3/17/13 6:09:28 PM#77
I prefer chants to buffs to be honest, and preferably a design where twisting is not possible (people will buy the tools to make macros that twist for you, and that should not be a part of game design). I liked the skald/paladin/warden-type chants to the shamans', and I believe it would make balancing easier. A system where different classes have different chants could make for more diverse group set ups.
  Zinzan

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

3/18/13 2:47:33 AM#78
Originally posted by naezgul

I'm worried with that few classes they will hybridize them too much.

the array of "specialized" classes made the game great. 

Class needs to fill a small niche 

Specialised classes is a good thing but buff classes always wind up as buffbots which was the bane of DAoC. The simple need to have 2 accounts to compete on even footing as a solo stealther (arguably 3 for a SB) was rediculous.

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

3/18/13 2:54:46 AM#79
If there is a class that gives buffs players will multi-account to get that class. There will be some players that will park their bot in a keep or tower and spend their entire playtime at that keep waiting to attack anything that comes by.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  grogstorm

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/07
Posts: 287

If it ain't broke, dont fix it!

3/18/13 4:04:24 AM#80

Just a thought....

Instead of having a class that primarily buffs others we get rid of this idea and look at a new paradigm.  What if we have a class who excels at bringing the best out of people?  This class has no buffs but instead helps others optimize their own innate abilities.

Let’s call this an Optimizer.  If the Optimizer joins up with a Fighter archetype character the fighter would gain a strength bonus (assuming STR  is their primary attribute) and the Optimizer would get a small bonus as well (either STR or the Optimizers primary attribute).   In this symbiotic relationship both would automatically benefit from the partnership.  Just imagine a full group where everyone performs their role better than they could individually. Everyone would have a bonus to their primary stat.

A variant to this would be the optimization is shared with everyone in the group.  So if the group has players with multiple primary attributes they could be shared with everyone else in the group.  So a group consisted of a Fighter (STR), Cleric (WIS), Rouge (DEX) and the Optimizer (INT) they would all gain a bonus to STR,WIS,DEX,INT.

This mechanic would all but eliminate a buff bot as it would only give someone a small increase to their primary attribute and would not be worth an additional subscription.

Grog

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